Questions

upstairs for coffee

Not looking to tread on anyones toes and certainly don't want to be perceived as trolling but I have a few questions for those of Religious faith.

1: I recently learned that it was because of Emperor Constantine that Christianity became relevant/popular. Because Constantine fought in the name of Christ, if he had lost at Milvian bridge one would assume that it would have been interpreted as Maxentius' "God" having won. So why do you have faith in a religion that only prospered because of a victorious bloody battle? Does brutal war and destruction not go against "the word of god"?

2: As alluded to above, why do you have faith in a religion that has caused suffering to billions? The Magdalene houses, the pedophile priests and subsequent cover ups, the crusades, the genocides, the indoctrination of children, the taking of tithes from suffering farmers in medieval times, even Brian Buru bought his way into the Book of Armagh by giving a pot of gold to monks! So how do you put your faith into an organisation that is so morally bankrupt?

3:The Westboro Baptist Church is a branch of Christianity, do you feel comfortable sharing your religion with them? They preach hate, does that sit comfortably with you?

4: If you are a true believer in this religion, doesn't that not mean you hate anyone who doesn't share your beliefs? You wish to see me and all other non-believers go to hell? How can you put your faith into something as callous as that?

What is my own opinion on religion? I'm an agnostic. I vehemently believe that the institutions that claim that they have a direct link to "God" such as the Catholic church are false, abhorrent, and amoral, mercenary entities.

Thanks,

ufc

Doc Farrell

I'm guessing you want people to answer no to questions three and four? Otherwise that would make them psychotic and evil. If you really want to chat about these things you might want to lower down the judgement volume from 11 to 10.

Edit: as for the other questions I think peregrinus or philologus are more qualified and patient to answer them.

Fanny Cradock

What an introduction to the forum

upstairs for coffee wrote: »

1: I recently learned that it was because of Emperor Constantine that Christianity became relevant/popular. Because Constantine fought in the name of Christ, if he had lost at Milvian bridge one would assume that it would have been interpreted as Maxentius' "God" having won. So why do you have faith in a religion that only prospered because of a victorious bloody battle? Does brutal war and destruction not go against "the word of god"?

I think you probably need to do some study for yourself. You also need to stop packing so many assumptions in.

upstairs for coffee wrote: »

2: As alluded to above, why do you have faith in a religion that has caused suffering to billions? The Magdalene houses, the pedophile priests and subsequent cover ups, the crusades, the genocides, the indoctrination of children, the taking of tithes from suffering farmers in medieval times, even Brian Buru bought his way into the Book of Armagh by giving a pot of gold to monks! So how do you put your faith into an organisation that is so morally bankrupt?

You are begging the question. Which is another way of saying you have assumed the premise and then work from there. I don't accept that Christianity has caused suffering to billions. What I do recognise is that many people have used Christianity to do evil and also to do good.

upstairs for coffee wrote: »

3:The Westboro Baptist Church is a branch of Christianity, do you feel comfortable sharing your religion with them? They preach hate, does that sit comfortably with you?

No it doesn't. But I also recognise the the WBC speak for a handful of people and that their message is very from that of the Kingdom.

upstairs for coffee wrote: »

4: If you are a true believer in this religion, doesn't that not mean you hate anyone who doesn't share your beliefs? You wish to see me and all other non-believers go to hell? How can you put your faith into something as callous as that?

Again, the answer is no. I don't hate non-believers, and I've personally never met any Christian who does.

As for the matter of hell, that is a different kettle of fish.

Given the overwhelmingly negative assumptions in your post I don't suppose that this thread will come to much.

Peregrinus

upstairs for coffee wrote: »

1: I recently learned that it was because of Emperor Constantine that Christianity became relevant/popular. Because Constantine fought in the name of Christ, if he had lost at Milvian bridge one would assume that it would have been interpreted as Maxentius' "God" having won. So why do you have faith in a religion that only prospered because of a victorious bloody battle? Does brutal war and destruction not go against "the word of god"?

You learned wrongly, I’m afraid. Christianity was doing quite well before Constantine came along; its growing popularity is part of the reason why he embraced it. (The guy may have been unprincipled, but he was no fool.)

It’s true that in some respects Christianity was boosted by Constantine’s legitimization of it - it got more converts when it ceased to be illegal, became socially acceptable and even respectable. But in other respects, it could be said that Christianity suffered through its growing association with state power after this point.

Either way, though, it’s a gross oversimplification to say that Christianity “only prospered because of a bloody battle”.

upstairs for coffee wrote: »

2: As alluded to above, why do you have faith in a religion that has caused suffering to billions? The Magdalene houses, the pedophile priests and subsequent cover ups, the crusades, the genocides, the indoctrination of children, the taking of tithes from suffering farmers in medieval times, even Brian Buru bought his way into the Book of Armagh by giving a pot of gold to monks! So how do you put your faith into an organisation that is so morally bankrupt?

You glide rather smoothly from “religion” to “organization”; there is a difference. Do churches commit atrocities because they are Christian, or because they are not sufficiently Christian?

upstairs for coffee wrote: »

3:The Westboro Baptist Church is a branch of Christianity, do you feel comfortable sharing your religion with them? They preach hate, does that sit comfortably with you?

No, of course it doesn’t. But is “it makes me feel comfortable” your standard for the validation of your own beliefs? If not, why do you think it should be mine?

upstairs for coffee wrote: »

4: If you are a true believer in this religion, doesn't that not mean you hate anyone who doesn't share your beliefs? You wish to see me and all other non-believers go to hell? How can you put your faith into something as callous as that?

Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

One of the first things you should know about Christianity - and, to be honest, I’m surprised that you don’t know this already - is that its most fundamental teaching is that Christians should love everyone. Consequently a true believer in Christianity not only does not hate those who don’t share his beliefs; he loves them. Nor, as a Christian, do I wish to see you and all other non-believers go to hell (and I don’t expect that you will).

upstairs for coffee wrote: »

What is my own opinion on religion? I'm an agnostic. I vehemently believe that the institutions that claim that they have a direct link to "God" such as the Catholic church are false, abhorrent, and amoral, mercenary entities.

I think the vehemence of your belief possibly colours your perceptions.

philologos

OP: Thanks for posting. I'll take some time to mull these over and come back to them.

PDN

upstairs for coffee wrote: »

I recently learned that it was because of Emperor Constantine that Christianity became relevant/popular. Because Constantine fought in the name of Christ, if he had lost at Milvian bridge one would assume that it would have been interpreted as Maxentius' "God" having won. So why do you have faith in a religion that only prospered because of a victorious bloody battle? Does brutal war and destruction not go against "the word of god"?

I would strongly advise you to get a new history teacher.

Christianity was, as already pointed out, increasing massively before Constantine. Indeed, vast numbers of Christians (myself included) believe that Constantine's bastardised Church/State religion was a perversion of Christianity and the greatest tragedy ever to befall the Gospel of Christ. It set the progress of Christianity back by many centuries.

Manach

Point1
Historically speaking, by aligning with the Christian Church Constantine choose to side with what had been a maginalised community but one due to a strong and doctrine and Hierarchy had survived numerous purges by the concentrated power of the Empire and flourished. By providing the moral foundations of the Empire post-Constantine, the Church managed both to stave off the collapse of the Empire in the West, and energise the emerging Eastern empire that reigned for 1000 more years: ensuring peace and stability for a high proportion of the population. Within the ruins of the West, the Church provided the nucleus of civilisation where the great monasteries and universities of the Medieval times emerged and promoted a pax-Christus where the beginnings of some of the international rules of war to mitigate conflicts began to be legislated.
Hence have faith in the Church shows an application of 2000 years of, on balance, good works and faith.

philologos

upstairs for coffee wrote: »

Not looking to tread on anyones toes and certainly don't want to be perceived as trolling but I have a few questions for those of Religious faith.

As I said before, thanks for posting them.

upstairs for coffee wrote: »

1: I recently learned that it was because of Emperor Constantine that Christianity became relevant/popular. Because Constantine fought in the name of Christ, if he had lost at Milvian bridge one would assume that it would have been interpreted as Maxentius' "God" having won. So why do you have faith in a religion that only prospered because of a victorious bloody battle? Does brutal war and destruction not go against "the word of god"?

As PDN said that's not really true. Christianity was growing to be popular in the Roman Empire prior to Constantine despite vicious persecutions under the Romans.

It matters very little as to whether Constantine won on the Milivian bridge. Christianity would still have no doubt grown further than it did. It's also important to note that Constantine only legalised Christianity in the Roman Empire. Efforts to make Christianity a state religion followed later.

Do I have faith in a religion that only prospered because of a victorious battle? - No. I have faith in Christ irrespective of whether the world deems that He prospered. He was nailed to a cross in my place for my sin, and as He rose again we came to new life in His name (2 Corinthians 5:17)

upstairs for coffee wrote: »

2: As alluded to above, why do you have faith in a religion that has caused suffering to billions? The Magdalene houses, the pedophile priests and subsequent cover ups, the crusades, the genocides, the indoctrination of children, the taking of tithes from suffering farmers in medieval times, even Brian Buru bought his way into the Book of Armagh by giving a pot of gold to monks! So how do you put your faith into an organisation that is so morally bankrupt?

I don't have faith in a religion that did this. I'm an evangelical Christian for a start. However, if I examined your question further am I to presume that because people abuse children in secular society that this is to stop me trusting other people as a whole?

I don't believe on the account of man, I believe on the account of God through Jesus Christ.

upstairs for coffee wrote: »

3:The Westboro Baptist Church is a branch of Christianity, do you feel comfortable sharing your religion with them? They preach hate, does that sit comfortably with you?

In many ways I don't and in many ways they teach heresy. For example they don't seem to be too keen on the idea that Jesus Christ came to die for sinners and that people can be forgiven by His grace.

upstairs for coffee wrote: »

4: If you are a true believer in this religion, doesn't that not mean you hate anyone who doesn't share your beliefs? You wish to see me and all other non-believers go to hell? How can you put your faith into something as callous as that?

I don't wish to see you and any other non-believer go to hell. I long for you and all others to repent and believe in the Gospel like I did.

The judgement of God isn't callous, it is just. What is callous is man's continued rebellion against a sovereign God who loved the world so much that He sent His Son Jesus to take the punishment that we deserved to take so that we could be forgiven.

It seems like people are stubborn, and that God has been more than gracious, one could say that God has bent over backwards to bring us back to Him.

upstairs for coffee wrote: »

What is my own opinion on religion? I'm an agnostic. I vehemently believe that the institutions that claim that they have a direct link to "God" such as the Catholic church are false, abhorrent, and amoral, mercenary entities.

Thanks,

ufc

That's your liberty.

I hope you can pick up where I left off here, I'd like to talk about this with you more.

I was an agnostic before I put my faith and trust in Jesus Christ, so I hope we can have an interesting discussion and I think I can relate to some of the points you've made.

Gumbi

Were you an atheist Phil?

philologos

Gumbi wrote: »

Were you an atheist Phil?

I was an agnostic, I wasn't sure about it all and I didn't care very much about it for a long time.