Trouble at the top? The impact of the IRFU on the national team

ray jay

A lot of posters here feel that at least part of the Irish team's problems stem from the decisions coming from Lansdowne Road. I'll confess it's not a topic I know a whole lot about, but it seems like there's an appetite for discussion on the subject (one which might grow considerably if Ireland end up as third seeds for RWC15!). For those who aren't familiar with the organisation of the IRFU, Demented Mole wrote what amounts to a primer earlier this year which I found informative.

Suggestions to get things rolling:

• For what reasons do people think the IRFU (as opposed to the coaching ticket) are causing the national team to underperform?
• What positive steps could they take to reverse this situation?
• Are there identifiable elements of the IRFU (personnel, structures, funding, etc.) that need to be updated?

Now obviously most people are of the opinion that Kidney shouldn't have been given a new contract before the last World Cup and that's likely to be one of the primary complaints, but there are other issues to discuss too so let's not let the thread become fixated on that one event.

Otacon

ray jay wrote: »

For what reasons do people think the IRFU (as opposed to the coaching ticket) are causing the national team to underperform?

While I don't think the IRFU are directly causing the team to underperform, they are employing the current coaching team who have not been delivering the results. It is their choice to leave this coaching team in place, so some of the blame for this needs to be shouldered by them, just like the coaching staff and the players themselves.

ray jay wrote: »

What positive steps could they take to reverse this situation?

There is the obvious replacement of the coaching team that could help, depending on the appointments. However, the IRFU could also help in the long-term with more coaching schools, more funds and resources going to the grassroots level of the game etc.

ray jay wrote: »

Are there identifiable elements of the IRFU (personnel, structures, funding, etc.) that need to be updated?

That is for someone else to answer as I do not have an indepth knowledge of the IRFU's internal structure and funding.

DeDoc

I think by and large the IRFU are doing a pretty good job. If you have a look at the last few strategic plans, they've been able to achieve an impressive number of their goals - and the goals if you see them at the time they're set are not 'gimmes' - they are challenging.

I'll refer specifically the to national team, before returning to the more general.....

I think a governing body needs to give a coach room - you can't appoint one and then be analysing every detail, querying every decision etc. Obviously you can't let it loose completely, you have to be prepared to step in if things are going disastrously wrong. Are we at that point at the moment. Quite probably, but the time to act was after June internationals - we might have been able to get a top quality coach then. Having left it it then, we're very unlikely to get one now, or to get one ready to come in for anything earlier than the end of the summer. The short-term recruiting of Foley and Feek suggests that the IRFU is playing this one cautious. From a purely business perspective, what they're doing probably makes good sense - if Kidney has a disaster in the AIs they can appoint a caretaker from within. If not, the 6N can be used to decide whether to re-offer (I wouldn't, short of a sea change in selection policy AND a championship win AND real progress in playing style), or to open up to new applicants (maybe including some of the current team) with the possibility to select their own team.
Going back to the decision to give him the 2 year extension - I wouldn't, purely on the basis of the lessons we should have learnt with EOS before 2007, and going further back to Ashton etc. I think WC to WC is a natural cycle and should be used, or worst case - the 6N after the WC.

returning to the more general point, there are two areas where I think the IRFU can and should improve, which is not to say that either have easy solutions:
a) development of indigineous coaches, and some sort of pathway to a point where we can realistically aspire to having 4 irish developed coaches in charge of the provinces
b) focus on a development pathway of specialist skill(and/or physical requirement) positions - in particular TH prop, second row and scrum-half. We've a small playing base and we really need to be clever about ensuring that we have a pipeline in these key areas.

jacothelad

On many fronts the IRFU is very good indeed but no matter how good they are at marketing etc it is time that evolutionary rather than revolutionary change is accelerated. The circumstances surrounding the non test match last Saturday are a smear on the good standing of the IRFU outside Ireland. It also means that no test matches can ever be played outside the Aviva in Ireland. Great. Not that many ever did but now we have to insult our opponents apparently, to help out an insurance company. I'm looking forward to the next Ireland game of any sort to be played at Ravenhill.........................................................maybe an U12s side.

The decision by the IRFU to renew the contract in 2011 of a clearly failing coaching team obviously is a major reason for the decline of the side. Did they not watch the 6 Nations in 2010 and 2011? Did they not watch the warm up games which saw us hurtle down the rankings.

Then there was the RWC. So for future reference, did they miss the game against the USA? Kidney seems to have missed that one also....or conveniently wiped it from his selective memory banks. Did the appointments committee not watch the q.f. in which the 'coach' selected his old mate after a public whine of epic self serving bilge?
Have they missed the whole of 2012 which has seen us win 2 games out of 9. I see the press has been mobilised en masse to blow Kidney's reign up in some bizarre way to skew it appear to be a success.

So, whichever group decided this was the way forward needs replacing with others who can actually see what is happening on the playing side. I.E. a group of adults who can tie their own shoelaces would be good, (ones who swear an oath that Bradley won't be the next coach). The contract renewal has also seemingly given Kidney carte-blanch to keep his old buddies about well past their use by date and now begin to pack the squad with untried, untested and unready players, mainly from his old side and pick his old mate as a coach.

The rather draconian, unworkable and bean counter - esque way the new n.i.e. player initiatives have been introduced is also bad business. Causing a schism between the supporters of Ireland on the one hand and the same folks as supporters of the provinces on the other is crass. There is a point to it but it needs revisited.

DeDoc

To be fair, his record at the time of the contract extension negotiation was played 29, won 21. Purely on that record, a negotiation for an extension wasn't crazy. However, the lessons of history (see above) and the detail of the teams performance should have given some pause for thought.
I think the point about giving the coach some room also is pertinent. There is a review (at a minimum) at the end of each season, and (without wanting to come across as a kidney fan/apologist, as I certainly amn't) he could point to:
2009/10) brought in a new controller in Sexton. Good autumn with 3/3, 3/5 in the 6N and competitive against Aus on the summer tour. France and NZ away the obvious lowlight, but no major disasters. Not awful for a post-Lions season
2010/11) wrong side of a close game against SA in autumn and good performance against NZ. 3/5 in 6N and both losses by less than a score, Wales score in particular being unjust. Finished by a massive performance against England

In other words some sort of a case, when backed by the GS in 09. That said, if you looked at the way the team was playing and the selection etc you'd have to be worried

Should also add that I agree the beancounters may be having too much influence here. What is the amount saved by getting a 'cheap contract' for 2 years for a guy before the World cup, even if he and the team have a blinder. Surely the uplift in performance etc could generate enough money to pay the extra money, and if you're negotiating after the WC you have a chance to dangle a 4 year carrot.

CatFromHue

I think there are some questions for the IRFU which effect how the national team play. Most of which we'll never find the answer to.

1) Are there set rules on players with non International contracts playing for Ireland or at the expense of a contracted international player.
2) Are there rules for players outside of Ireland being picked for Ireland.
3) Was the decision to not appoint a backs coach to replace Gaffney the IRFU's or Kidneys.
4) What's happening with the scrum coach role? Massimo Cuttita withdrew his application as he though the role was ill defined.

I don't think Brendan Fanning has much faith in the IRFU. If you look through some of the articles on his blog they're not complimentary of the IRFU ( http://brendanfanningrugby.wordpress.com/2012/08/19/chill-wind-needed-for-old-farts/ ).

I suppose one way of looking at the IRFU is that they did/do a great job in keeping our International players playing here in Ireland.........that's after they let them all go to England in the late 90's (seemingly Brian Ashton at one stage wanted Ireland to train in England as that's were the vast majority of our players played).

Players with central contracts seem to have been given an almost unfair armchair ride compared to those not on them.

ROG, D'Arcy, DOC, Fitzgerald are all guys that have been picked over the past 4 years when they shouldn't have been within an asses roar of the team. In all cases someone else was performing on the same level to a far higher standard (Sexton , Wallace, Ryan, Trimble) but the player with the central contract got a nod.

I really really think that the business side of the game needs to properly assess whether it's the central contract system that's causing this;
- Do you play DOC over McCarthy in a game against Tonga because McCarthy would get an appearance fee and DOC has already been paid to play / be available for the game?
- Or is it simply that the coach has been overly reliant on these players.

Either could be true, but if there's even one example of the first case happening, then that's a very dangerous way to set up a national side.

Central Contracts should be for our "irreplaceables", guys who French clubs would be sniffing around at, and who we reckon will feature in match day squads an awful lot of the time. There length needs to be adjusted too. 2 year contracts for guys over 30 or injury prone makes no sense (Isn't Dennis Leamy still on one!?)

I don't think there is more than 10/12 of those 'type' of players in Ireland tbh. A proper rotation and development policy with an eye to the future would see a 'core' group change slowly over time, while the 'fringe' lines become blurred and players drop in and out of match day squads regularly as the second tier of players develop to the extent where we have more than one option in every position.

Almaviva

ray jay wrote: »

Now obviously most people are of the opinion that Kidney shouldn't have been given a new contract before the last World Cup and that's likely to be one of the primary complaints, but there are other issues to discuss too so let's not let the thread become fixated on that one event.

Hard not to fix on the one event. IFRU top has got a huge amount right since the transition to professionalism. General policies were very well set. We have indeed seen a golden age of Irish international (both national team and provincial teams). Youth development, academies, keep players at home, national contracting of players, control of imports, player protection, etc, etc. And got it correct on national coach recruitment. Including DK. But the failure to sack him is the great blot on their copy book. Renewing the contract was bad enough. Not sacking after last years 6N was terrible, and they baulked at admitting their own mistake. Very Weak. Whatever the money. Still dreaming that they will do the deed after we lose (and hoping we do lose) to ARG, and Santa Claus will bring us a new coach for the 6N to give us something to hope for. Dreaming I know. But it would be the correct thing to do.

ray jay

There's definitely a balance to be struck between Abramovich-style ruthlessness and keeping the faith no matter the results, but I think the IRFU are leaning too close to the latter currently. It's not even just the coaches, there were some very questionable central contracts awarded to players who couldn't have been called first choice (particularly egregious in Leamy's case).

jacothelad wrote: »

...

So, whichever group decided this was the way forward needs replacing with others who can actually see what is happening on the playing side. I.E. a group of adults who can tie their own shoelaces would be good, (ones who swear an oath that Bradley won't be the next coach).

On this point, I've seen someone mention the idea of trying to get Conor O'Shea for the IRFU. He's obviously going to have a good understanding of the modern game and management techniques, plus his work outside of rugby should mean he won't have too narrow a perspective. Obviously he's well settled in England, but even as a hypothetical consideration, is there much merit in it?

irishbucsfan

The effect of the IRFU on Irish rugby is overwhelmingly positive and I wouldn't switch them with any other national Union in the world. Possibly the NZRU

Their use of resources at elite level is possibly not good enough, something impossible to gauge from the outside. Hard to say how they can address it as well

jm08

ray jay wrote: »

There's definitely a balance to be struck between Abramovich-style ruthlessness and keeping the faith no matter the results, but I think the IRFU are leaning too close to the latter currently. It's not even just the coaches, there were some very questionable central contracts awarded to players who couldn't have been called first choice (particularly egregious in Leamy's case).

The reason why most the top players have stayed in Ireland is because the IRFU tell them that they will look after them and they will have a much longer career/earn more in the long run rather than if they go for the big bucks in France and where they won't be treated so well.

Denis Leamy picked up his last injury at the rugby world cup (the one that finished his career). What would it say to the rest of the players that Ireland wanted to keep if they cut Leamy adrift as soon as he was injured? Hard to expect Munster to sort out a contract for Leamy considering he got injured on Ireland duty.

Luke Fitzgerald made a hash of his central contract and luckily for him Leinster came to his rescue, but considering Luke hadn't played for Ireland for about 2 years mainly due to injury, he was still offered a central contract.

totallegend

OK, keeping focussed solely on the IRFU and the national team....

The performance and results have plummeted in the last 2-3 years. The IRFU have done nothing about it. They have just kept putting more and more eggs in the Kidney basket; backs coach leaves, not replaced. Defence coach eventually takes backs coach job, is replaced by staunch Kidney loyalist with no international experience.

National scrum coach identified as highest priority, 11 months later still no appointment.

Results worsen, Kidney granted contract extension before World Cup. World Cup goes tits up, IRFU stuck with him.

The seemingly bizarre approach to central contracts, which seems to be based on years served rather than actual value to the team.

These are all IRFU decisions/non-decisions which have impaired the ability of the national team to perform.

phog

totallegend wrote: »

Players forced to delay surgery to go to New Zealand, miss crucial autumn games.

These are all IRFU decisions/non-decisions which have impaired the ability of the national team to perform.

Do you know this for a fact or just surmising based on how things actually panned out?

Swiwi

It's not a new problem: 1985 - IRFU votes against the idea of a RWC, to be held in 1987. The perception in NZ is that the Home Unions, especially the IRFU, are extremely conservative. You guys can make your own mind up about it.

totallegend

phog wrote: »

Do you know this for a fact or just surmising based on how things actually panned out?

I thought I knew it for a fact but now you have me doubting myself. Original post edited to remove it, in the interests of fairness.

The problems with the national team can be summarised as follows: results have got worse, performances have got worse, they have done nothing.

Higher

ray jay wrote: »

There's definitely a balance to be struck between Abramovich-style ruthlessness and keeping the faith no matter the results, but I think the IRFU are leaning too close to the latter currently. It's not even just the coaches, there were some very questionable central contracts awarded to players who couldn't have been called first choice (particularly egregious in Leamy's case).
On this point, I've seen someone mention the idea of trying to get Conor O'Shea for the IRFU. He's obviously going to have a good understanding of the modern game and management techniques, plus his work outside of rugby should mean he won't have too narrow a perspective. Obviously he's well settled in England, but even as a hypothetical consideration, is there much merit in it?

COS supported the idea of ROG at 10 and Sexton at 12.

The guy is hyped to the heavens. I don't want him anywhere near the Irish set up.

blindsider

I would love to know what our Director of Rugby, Eddie Wigglesworth does on a day-to-day basis. I have never seen or heard of him being interviewed

EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V48JLsb60mg - the announcement of the new NIQ Policy - which they have quietly mothballed by all accounts.

Not inspiring TBH!

ray jay

Higher wrote: »

COS supported the idea of ROG at 10 and Sexton at 12.

The guy is hyped to the heavens. I don't want him anywhere near the Irish set up.

He also suggested Ferris should be converted to a lock - however those are both coaching decisions, not something the management in the IRFU is going to be involved in (to clarify, that is the sort of position I was talking about, not a coaching role).

Tim Robbins

The IRFU have put in brilliant structures for Rugby when you compare what the FAI has done for Soccer. Nothing is ever perfect. Kidney deserves his shot but any Irish manager is always going to be accused of provincial bias and is also going to have their preferred style that is going to clash with others.

Frankie Sheehan and Paul O'Connell probably wouldn't like the Joe Schimt style but are both excellent players.

Grimebox

ray jay wrote: »

For what reasons do people think the IRFU (as opposed to the coaching ticket) are causing the national team to underperform?

The irish team have been consistently under performing for as long as I can remember. This leads me to be believe that we are performing exactly as we should be. It's our perception of their greatness that is incorrect

Gordon Gecko

Tim Robbins wrote: »

The IRFU have put in brilliant structures for Rugby when you compare what the FAI has done for Soccer. Nothing is ever perfect. Kidney deserves his shot but any Irish manager is always going to be accused of provincial bias and is also going to have their preferred style that is going to clash with others.

Frankie Sheehan and Paul O'Connell probably wouldn't like the Joe Schimt style but are both excellent players.

1) Kidney has had more than his fair shot at the job, the position of Irish coach is kind of like being a teacher - one seeminly cannot get fired no matter how poor the results are

2) Of course Frankie Sheahan wouldn't like the Joe Schmidt style: if Frankie Sheahan had his way Marcus Horan and John Hayes would be our starting props!

jacothelad

Gordon Gecko wrote: »

1) Kidney has had more than his fair shot at the job, the position of Irish coach is kind of like being a teacher - one seeminly cannot get fired no matter how poor the results are

2) Of course Frankie Sheahan wouldn't like the Joe Schmidt style: if Frankie Sheahan had his way Marcus Horan and John Hayes would be our starting props!

Frankie has awarded the MOTM award for next Saturdays game to the first Front Row management player to wear a green shirt.

padser

Tim Robbins wrote: »

The IRFU have put in brilliant structures for Rugby when you compare what the FAI has done for Soccer. Nothing is ever perfect. Kidney deserves his shot but any Irish manager is always going to be accused of provincial bias and is also going to have their preferred style that is going to clash with others.

Frankie Sheehan and Paul O'Connell probably wouldn't like the Joe Schimt style but are both excellent players.

On what basis do you say POC wouldn't like Scmidts style?

Tim Robbins

padser wrote: »

On what basis do you say POC wouldn't like Scmidts style?

I think POC carries way too much. He makes yards, but it's very slow ball. Different type of rugby.

Scmidts is more into angles, space and offloads.

ray jay

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I think POC carries way too much. He makes yards, but it's very slow ball. Different type of rugby.

Scmidts is more into angles, space and offloads.

Leo Cullen.