Top tax rate kicks in at €32k in Ireland compared with €258k in Germany...

mhtc

:eek: never realised that!

http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/economy-has-limited-tax-ability-214557.html

jester77

mhtc wrote: »

:eek: never realised that!

http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/economy-has-limited-tax-ability-214557.html

The problem is how little tax the low earners in Ireland are paying.

JazzyJ

mhtc wrote: »

:eek: never realised that!

http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/economy-has-limited-tax-ability-214557.html

:rolleyes: Shoddy, shoddy, reporting. No mention that the middle tax rate in Germany is 42%.

mhtc

JazzyJ wrote: »

:rolleyes: Shoddy, shoddy, reporting. No mention that the middle tax rate in Germany is 42%.

aah, could have mentioned that in fairness. ok nothing to see here

Idbatterim

the upper rate here is 52%

JazzyJ

Idbatterim wrote: »

the upper rate here is 52%

:rolleyes: Well then the rates in other countries are higher too when you also take into account of various social/solidarity payments.

dissed doc

mhtc wrote: »

:eek: never realised that!

http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/economy-has-limited-tax-ability-214557.html

And on the lower thresholds, people on incomes under 32k in Germany pay way more tax than they do in Ireland.

Half the "working" population of "taxpayers" in Ireland are completely freeloading on people on 50-60k+ and at the same time, demanding even more tax rises on this ultra rich group of people

Idbatterim

Half the "working" population of "taxpayers" in Ireland are completely freeloading on people on 50-60k+ and at the same time, demanding even more tax rises on this ultra rich group of people

yeah true, but thats the governments decision...

munchkin_utd

mhtc wrote: »

:eek: never realised that!

http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/economy-has-limited-tax-ability-214557.html

I'd point out that there is ZERO relief on pension payments in Germany unlike in Ireland where any excess income can be squirreled away from the reach of the taxman.

Also, theres no bands of tax rates like in UK or Ireland. In germany its a curve based on a rather complicated formula.
So someone earning 1euro less than 250k pays only a fraction less of a taxrate than someone a euro over 250k.
Rather than go from paying 25% to 40% suddenly with knock on effects that folks then wont do overtime and the likes, the tax rate gradually increases the more you earn.

Another nice aspect of it is that low earners pay really low tax (about 5% at €10000) BUT unlike in Ireland they dont get away with contributing absolutely nothing. Bertie and the whole boomtime cheerleaders were very good at warping the Irish sense of expectation that it was possible to pay nothing but have everything.
Just like you have to teach a child good habits, a government also has to instil in the population a sense of belonging to the system and to me that starts with having as many paying into the system as possible if even only a token amount.

I could criticise the german tax + social security laws in many ways but the income tax is pretty fair at least with relation to the lack of bands.

Dannyboy83

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Another nice aspect of it is that low earners pay really low tax (about 5% at €10000) BUT unlike in Ireland they dont get away with contributing absolutely nothing. Bertie and the whole boomtime cheerleaders were very good at warping the Irish sense of expectation that it was possible to pay nothing but have everything.

You cannot overlook the fact that Germans and Swedes in Germany and Sweden are happy/content to pay (higher) taxes in their respective countries.

It's a very, very different story when they come to Ireland.

The Swedes in particular detest paying (lower) taxes in Ireland, because they feel they are being robbed... just like the Irish.

munchkin_utd

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

You cannot overlook the fact that Germans and Swedes in Germany and Sweden are happy/content to pay (higher) taxes in their respective countries.

It's a very, very different story when they come to Ireland.

The Swedes in particular detest paying (lower) taxes in Ireland, because they feel they are being robbed... just like the Irish.

funny though, if you actually work it out the difference in what you pay in income taxes outside of the very low income bracket is minimal enough.

Its the LOW PRSI rates, universal social charge and other charges that make the difference in Irelands favour.

On 50grand a year, in Germany you see a mere €2.399 a month and in Ireland despite all the whinging that Berties unaffordable boom time giveaway budget treats are being abolished you STILL get a tasty €2,928 a month in Ireland
(Irish Tax Calculator - German Tax Calulator )

I could mention that other payments to the state like water charges and local property tax in Germany is also payable from that substantially lower income.

leonidas83

munchkin_utd wrote: »

funny though, if you actually work it out the difference in what you pay in income taxes outside of the very low income bracket is minimal enough.

Its the LOW PRSI rates, universal social charge and other charges that make the difference in Irelands favour.

On 50grand a year, in Germany you see a mere €2.399 a month and in Ireland despite all the whinging that Berties unaffordable boom time giveaway budget treats are being abolished you STILL get a tasty €2,928 a month in Ireland
(Irish Tax Calculator - German Tax Calulator )

I could mention that other payments to the state like water charges and local property tax in Germany is also payable from that substantially lower income.

Yes maybe they pay slightly more tax on their income in Germany which is still one the most heavily taxed countries in Europe but they get a hell of alot more for their money. Good roads, hospitals, education, transport & lower VAT on their goods & services.

When you look at countries like Germany you see what a disgrace our own government really are. I dont think the average Irish person would have a problem paying more taxes if they knew it was being better spent.

munchkin_utd

the hospital/ health care may be better BUT on a 50k income you pay €3763 toward medical insurance out of your own pocket(higher than Irish PRSI and levy combined!) which is topped up by the same again by your employer meaning you contribute €7526 a year in medical insurance. So your medical contribution is over double what in Ireland is paid "for" medical/ pension/ social insurance etc. all combined

If youre a married couple earning that figure, then thats just over 15grand a year toward medical insurance.
And as I said, thats separate from what you pay in Germany for PRSI and the separate state pension contribution.

the good news is that the irish government plans to introduce a similar model for health funding into Ireland, so you'll pay more but there'll be the benefits (hopefully) of the systems abroad.

Head The Wall

leonidas83 wrote: »

Yes maybe they pay slightly more tax on their income in Germany which is still one the most heavily taxed countries in Europe but they get a hell of alot more for their money. Good roads, hospitals, education, transport & lower VAT on their goods & services.

When you look at countries like Germany you see what a disgrace our own government really are. I dont think the average Irish person would have a problem paying more taxes if they knew it was being better spent.

I wouldn't call 22% slightly more, 1 or 2% yes but who are we kidding here it's a big chunk

Idbatterim

You cannot overlook the fact that Germans and Swedes in Germany and Sweden are happy/content to pay (higher) taxes in their respective countries.

It's a very, very different story when they come to Ireland.

The Swedes in particular detest paying (lower) taxes in Ireland, because they feel they are being robbed... just like the Irish.

yeah they are happy to pay more, because they feel like they are getting value for money, exactly the reason none of us here want to pay more...

On 50grand a year, in Germany you see a mere €2.399 a month and in Ireland despite all the whinging that Berties unaffordable boom time giveaway budget treats are being abolished you STILL get a tasty €2,928 a month in Ireland

you could argue this is being subsidised by our massive borrowing, I wouldnt but...

Geuze

German social insurances



Employee + Employer = Total

Health 8.2% + 7.3% =15.5% up to 45k

Pension 9.95% + 9.95% = 19.9% Up to 66k

UI 1.5% + 1.5% = 3.00% Up to 66k

LT care 0.975%+ 0.975% = 1.95%

Total 20.625% + 19.725% = 40.35%

srsly78

Don't forget about the mandatory health insurance you have to pay for too in Germany.

robp

leonidas83 wrote: »

Yes maybe they pay slightly more tax on their income in Germany which is still one the most heavily taxed countries in Europe but they get a hell of alot more for their money. Good roads, hospitals, education, transport & lower VAT on their goods & services.

When you look at countries like Germany you see what a disgrace our own government really are. I dont think the average Irish person would have a problem paying more taxes if they knew it was being better spent.

I am very sceptical of the services argument. I live in Germany and yes there are great roads but that comes with a population of 80 million people. the cost of going to university is like that of Ireland 4 years ago but like Ireland its rising. There is talk of reintroducing fees. I feel that Irish people often cite Germany's great services but their experiences are limited to only big cities. If you compare an Irish city matched to a similar sized Germany city I suspect the difference will evaporate. To wander off-topic there are plenty of German cities with unemployment no better than Ireland. The one massive advantage here is the vastly superior (conservative) approach to urban planning.

Dob74

Idbatterim wrote: »

the upper rate here is 52%

No upper rate of income tax is 41%.
There are so many loop holes no has to pay 41% on money earned over 33000.

We you include vat and excise low earners pay similar rates in total tax to high earners.
However since we live in a country controlled by a right wing press we will hear endless whining about the poor high earners having being oppressed.

zootroid

Dob74 wrote: »

No upper rate of income tax is 41%.
There are so many loop holes no has to pay 41% on money earned over 33000.

We you include vat and excise low earners pay similar rates in total tax to high earners.
However since we live in a country controlled by a right wing press we will hear endless whining about the poor high earners having being oppressed.

Not sure what this comment means?

And the effective marginal rate of tax is 52%. If I pay tax at the higher rate, and I get an increase of 1k, 520 will go to the government. Simple as that.

During the FF years the tax base was spread too thin. It's only right that everyone working pays some form of income tax

kodoherty93

No one has raised point although taxes are higher in Germany. There country has something we have not had in 6 years a balanced budget.

Irish tax rates will probably remain the same but there could be more taxes on the OAPs as for some reason if an OAP couple earn over €75,000 a year and are over 70 they only pay tax at 7,5%.

Taxes are about equity and who can afford to pay. Obviously not the part time worker but an OAP pretty much unaffected by the recession can.

Also your pension in Germany relates to how much you pay into it. Its not like Ireland were someone earning €20,000 a year gets the same state pension as the person earning €200,000.

earlyevening

zootroid wrote: »

And the effective marginal rate of tax is 52%.

55% for the self employed. (No equity in our tax system)

djpbarry

Idbatterim wrote: »

yeah true, but thats the governments decision...

Bollocks. It’s the electorate’s decision.

leonidas83 wrote: »

Yes maybe they pay slightly more tax on their income in Germany which is still one the most heavily taxed countries in Europe but they get a hell of alot more for their money. Good roads, hospitals, education, transport & lower VAT on their goods & services.

I think you’re overstating the difference to be honest, but anyway, you want the government to provide you with a Ferrari before you give them the money to buy it?

Dob74 wrote: »

We you include vat and excise low earners pay similar rates in total tax to high earners.

I’d love to see how you worked that one out. Do middle and high earners not pay VAT and excise?

kodoherty93 wrote: »

Taxes are about equity and who can afford to pay. Obviously not the part time worker...

Why not?

Dob74

djpbarry wrote: »

Bollocks. It’s the electorate’s decision.
I think you’re overstating the difference to be honest, but anyway, you want the government to provide you with a Ferrari before you give them the money to buy it?
I’d love to see how you worked that one out. Do middle and high earners not pay VAT and excise?
Why not?

Quite simple if u earn 50k a year, a thousand a week and fill your car petrol, you will pay 50euro in excise and duty.
If you earn 20k a year and earn 400 a week and fill the same car with petrol paying 50 euro in excise and vat. That's 12.5% of your income via 5%.
Add this to all your indirect taxes and you'll see the lower earner Is getting screwed just ad much as the high earners.

Any way if you are on a high rate of income tax there a many legal ways to avoid paying incometax. Pension, health, bin charges etc.

Many people seem to think prsi is income tax. It's social insurance unfortunately the way it's spent leaves a lot to desired. Only one rate for contributory pension is a joke. But prsi is not income tax

relax carry on

Dob74 wrote: »

Quite simple if u earn 50k a year, a thousand a week and fill your car petrol, you will pay 50euro in excise and duty.
If you earn 20k a year and earn 400 a week and fill the same car with petrol paying 50 euro in excise and vat. That's 12.5% of your income via 5%.
Add this to all your indirect taxes and you'll see the lower earner Is getting screwed just ad much as the high earners.

Any way if you are on a high rate of income tax there a many legal ways to avoid paying incometax. Pension, health, bin charges etc.

Many people seem to think prsi is income tax. It's social insurance unfortunately the way it's spent leaves a lot to desired. Only one rate for contributory pension is a joke. But prsi is not income tax

Those options were/are also open to those paying tax at the standard rate. To clarify, tax relief on bin charges is gone since Jan 2012 and relief was at the standard rate. Relief for health expenses still exists but only at the standard rate since 2009.

djpbarry

Dob74 wrote: »

Quite simple if u earn 50k a year, a thousand a week and fill your car petrol, you will pay 50euro in excise and duty.
If you earn 20k a year and earn 400 a week and fill the same car with petrol paying 50 euro in excise and vat. That's 12.5% of your income via 5%.
Add this to all your indirect taxes and you'll see the lower earner Is getting screwed just ad much as the high earners.

Why are you assuming that someone on €20k per year is living the same lifestyle (with associated costs) as someone on €50k? That’s ridiculous.

Idbatterim

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dob74
Quite simple if u earn 50k a year, a thousand a week and fill your car petrol, you will pay 50euro in excise and duty.
If you earn 20k a year and earn 400 a week and fill the same car with petrol paying 50 euro in excise and vat. That's 12.5% of your income via 5%.
Add this to all your indirect taxes and you'll see the lower earner Is getting screwed just ad much as the high earners.
Why are you assuming that someone on €20k per year is living the same lifestyle (with associated costs) as someone on €50k? That’s ridiculous.

vicent browne was banging on about this again last night! should we have a system where when we go into a shop, we all pay different levels of vat? obviously some people paying in far more and being entitled to far less if anything, isnt good enough...

later12

Idbatterim wrote: »

vicent browne was banging on about this again last night! should we have a system where when we go into a shop, we all pay different levels of vat? obviously some people paying in far more and being entitled to far less if anything, isnt good enough...

I think VB's argument, if he is in favour of consumption taxes and I'd imagine he is, would be something akin to Bradford's X Tax.

That way, you don't pay consumption revenues at source, but via your wages, progressively in accordance with a graduated rate schedule.

Dob74

djpbarry wrote: »

Why are you assuming that someone on €20k per year is living the same lifestyle (with associated costs) as someone on €50k? That’s ridiculous.[/Quote

Lifestyle no, but essentials like petrol, gas, electric, insurance all have hidden costs skimmed back to central government.
I have no doubt if you look a the narrow picture like top rate of income tax it appears to punish the high earners. But since income tax only makes up one third of total tax take. The big picture looks a bit different.

I am sick of listening to the big accounting firms doing there Joe duffy style whining on every media outlet and no one up to challenge any of there spin.
I have no doubt on budget day the examples given out by the dof will not include vat and many other indirect taxes. But will be simplistic and just show income tax with the household charge .

djpbarry

Dob74 wrote: »

Lifestyle no, but essentials like petrol, gas, electric, insurance all have hidden costs skimmed back to central government.

What "hidden" costs are low earners paying that middle-to-high earners do not?

creedp

djpbarry wrote: »

What "hidden" costs are low earners paying that middle-to-high earners do not?

Surely the point is that as a flat percentage of net income the hidden costs are a far higher proportion of the low income earners net than the middle/high earners which is why they are so regressive. Which is why FG won't put extra taxes on those earning over €100k as obviously this will only hit the better off .. can't have that now .. sure they are wealth creators and they'd all leave the country and or worse go on the dole!. So lets put a tax on homes and cut child benefit instead .. ah yea that should keep the better off a little happier. Luckily the pensioner on €70k a year will still get a medical card (can't be hitting the vulnerable who built the county into the wreck that it is) while the worker with a young family on less than half of that who also has a mortgate/childcare/commute to work costs/much higher household costs gets fcuk all but more cuts!

hmmm

creedp wrote: »

Which is why FG won't put extra taxes on those earning over €100k as obviously this will only hit the better off .. can't have that now .. sure they are wealth creators and they'd all leave the country and or worse go on the dole!.

The important thing as a society is that we teach these rich types a lesson. Working hard at school, getting a good job, working hard at it, earning good money - who do they think they are? We need equality for all in this society - if I've never worked a day in my life I don't see why I should not be given the same opportunities to enjoy life just as much as these thieving rich people who get up for work. I wouldn't stop at 100k either, next year I'm hoping we can get it down to 50k. Road tolls at 7/8am would be another excellent way to catch these parasites as they travel to their work. My Sky sports sub ends in a month, and I'm going to be hard pressed to pay it if they cut the childrens benefit again.

djpbarry

creedp wrote: »

Surely the point is that as a flat percentage of net income the hidden costs...

I'll ask again: what "hidden costs"?

Ogham

Some interesting figures on tax levels in Ireland compared to other OECD countries here. http://www.moneyguideireland.com/personal-taxation-levels-in-ireland.html
The lower earners pay lower percentages here.