Death certs for 1916 Leaders?

Dalcassian

I have been looking at the history of the revolt in Dublin in 1916 and the execution of the leaders and others. When I tried to get the death records on family research on the Latter Day Saints website I could not find anything!
Anyone got any idea where to look?
Do the GRO in Abbey Street have the records?
Please advise.

pinkypinky

Afaik, there was some suggestion that families of the leaders did not register their deaths as a protest but I can't find anything to support it. The GRO on Abbey St is the right place to go - you'll need to look up indexes which are the same as on Familysearch.org

Did you try searching by the Irish version of their names? I know Pearse filled out the census in Irish.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000133850/

Dalcassian

Hi pinkypinky, Thanks for that. Can you help me some more with the Irish spelling of Patrick Pearse as he entered it on the census?
On the LDS I found the index numbesr for the deaths of the following.
James Connolly 1916 (2) Dublin South 2-477.
Thomas MacDonagh 1916 (2) D/South 2-425.
Sean Heuston 1916 (2) D/South 2-477.

Patrick Henry Pearse birth index number is 1879 (4) D/South 2-755.

Thanks
Joe

pinkypinky

I think it's translated as Mac Piarais but I did try that in the Familysearch index and didn't find him. Someone with better Irish might have some other suggestions. Wikipedia has Pádraig Anraí Mac Piarais.

thecommietommy

Dalcassian wrote: »

I have been looking at the history of the revolt in Dublin in 1916 and the execution of the leaders and others. When I tried to get the death records on family research on the Latter Day Saints website I could not find anything!
Anyone got any idea where to look?
Do the GRO in Abbey Street have the records?
Please advise.

I was wondering is there one for Mountbatten since he was executed in this juristiction ? Anyone got any idea where to look, would Sinn Fein in Sligo be helpful Dalcassian ?

pinkypinky

He died in Ireland so yes (I wouldn't use the word execution!) but death records for 1979 are not available online. Certainly if you went to the GRO in Abbey St, you could get a copy of his death cert by doing a search.

CeannRua

Dalcassian wrote: »

Hi pinkypinky, Thanks for that. Can you help me some more with the Irish spelling of Patrick Pearse as he entered it on the census?
On the LDS I found the index numbesr for the deaths of the following.
James Connolly 1916 (2) Dublin South 2-477.
Thomas MacDonagh 1916 (2) D/South 2-425.
Sean Heuston 1916 (2) D/South 2-477.

Patrick Henry Pearse birth index number is 1879 (4) D/South 2-755.

Thanks
Joe

Michael Mallin is at the same references as Connolly and Heuston. That MacDonagh registration is July-Sept 1916. There is another one for April-June but the estimated age at death is out on it. On Ancestry, there is a listing for a Thomas Clarke vol 2, page 643 in Dublin South but there is no date on the record so might not relate at all. I'd wonder if these deaths would have been registered in Irish if not registered by someone who was friendly to them.

Dalcassian

Hi CeannRua,
I see what you mean about the Thomas MacDonagh in Jul /Sept 1916!
The entry for Apr /June 1916 for Thomas McDonagh (note the spelling!) is probably right. The age at death is not always accurate as we well know. It's a time of grief for the family and not everyone is thinking straight.
Joe

CeannRua

Hard to know with the MacDonagh one. With three of them on the same page, I wonder if it would be worthwhile asking the GRO to turn some pages. Also, would these three deaths running together suggest they were registered by 'officialdom' for want of a better word rather than the families I wonder?

pedroeibar1

CeannRua wrote: »

................ these three deaths running together suggest they were registered by 'officialdom' for want of a better word rather than the families I wonder?

Something in the back of my mind about the bodies of those executed belonging to the State rather than the families in those days? Most of those hanged in the 19th c were buried in a prison grave and only in exceptional circumstances were their bodies released to the family for private burial. That also is how bodies went to medical science for disection.... If I am correct that would suggest it is the duty of the authorities to register the deaths.

CeannRua

Forgot to check Thomas Kent earlier. There is only one possibility for him in Cork and it's July-Sept as well so maybe shouldn't discount the same quarter for MacDonagh.

Peregrinus

I can't trace a citation for what the law provided in 1916, but I'm pretty sure that the obligation to register the deaths would have been imposed either on the Governor of Kilmainham Gaol, where the deaths took place, or on the British military official in whose custody the prisioners were.

pedroeibar1

The actual procedure probably would not be covered in a law (e.g. in one of the Army Acts) and most likely would be covered in 'Army Regulations'.

The process for execution by hanging civilians is described below. I expect that the duties of the military sitting in court martial would replicate those of their counterparts in civilian life.

The paperwork and administration.
When a person was sentenced to death post 1868 a written copy of the sentence, signed by the Clerk if the Court was sent to the prison, along with the prisoner, as the warrant to admit the prisoner and place them in the condemned cell. This document gave no date for the execution. It should be noted that there was no other formal death warrant issued post 1837. If there was no appeal or the appeal was dismissed the High Sheriff of the county wrote to the governor of the prison setting out the time and date of the execution. The sheriff also wrote a letter of appointment to the chosen hangman. A “Memorandum of Instructions for Carrying out an Execution” was sent to the prison for each hanging. The day before the execution a notice (Document No. 278) was posted on the prison gate giving the name of the prisoner and the time of the execution. After the execution Documents No. 279 and 280, respectively the Certificate of Surgeon and the Declaration of Sheriff were posted on the gate. The first simply certified death and the second, signed by the sheriff or under sheriff, the governor and the chaplain declared that “Judgement of Death was this day executed on (prisoner’s name) in Her Majesty’s Prison of (named) in our presence.” After the formal inquest a Coroner’s Order for Burial (Part was issued allowing for the prisoner to be buried. An LPC4 form was completed by the governor and sent to the Prison Commissioners. (From http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/hanging1.html#paper which also has links to many of the mentioned documents.)

The 1947 ‘Procedures for Military Executions’ in the US Army are here http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/pdf/procedure_dec-1947.pdf

Dalcassian

Hi CeannRua,
Was in the city yesterday on other business and dropped into the GRO in Abbey Street. They were very busy but I managed to get one death record before they closed.
Michael Mallin. 8th May 1916. Dublin South. 2-477.
He is listed as you say on the same page as Connolly and Heuston 2-477.
The cert said he was a 40 year old Silk Weaver from Inchicore. The certified cause of death was entered as "Execution at the detention Barracks Kilmainham certified". The Informant was his widow from the home address on the 2nd June 1916.
So it looks like it was up to the family to register the death themselves.
Next time I'm in the city I'll check further of some of the others.
Comments.

CeannRua

Hi Dalcassian, This is the 1863 Bill for the registration of births and deaths in Ireland
http://eppi.dippam.ac.uk/documents/14445/eppi_pages/173956

It says that deaths (section 35) are to be registered either by someone who witnessed death, someone who was in attendance during final illness or the Occupier of the House or Tenement (would Mallin's wife have fulfilled any of these requirements?) The definition of Occupier includes the Governor etc of Gaols.

I don't know anything about military procedures that pedroeibar mentions or whether they would have impacted on this; or if this legislation was amended before 1916 but if you can figure this out it might will help you. My guess is that the Occupier or someone who was present should have registered the deaths but a guess is all it is (based on hospital / workhouse certs I've seen). I've never seen a death cert for someone who died in a prison. Perhaps if you post on the Genealogy forum, someone there might have seen one and be able to tell you who the informant was.

Dalcassian

Hi CeannRua,
I have the photocopy of the Michael Mallin death registration in front of me and in column 8, Signature, Qualification and Residence of Informant; it clearly says that the Informant was his widow from the home address dated the 2nd June 1916.
That's over three weeks, nearly four. 8th May to 2nd June. Maybe the family decided to register his death as the authorities were not doing it. That's just a guess.
I don't think it would be right to post a copy of it here but you can take my word on it.
As I said, next time I'm in the city I'll get the Connolly and Heuston death records to compare the Informant.
Joe

CeannRua

Dalcassian wrote: »

Hi CeannRua,
I have the photocopy of the Michael Mallin death registration in front of me and in column 8, Signature, Qualification and Residence of Informant; it clearly says that the Informant was his widow from the home address dated the 2nd June 1916.
That's over three weeks, nearly four. 8th May to 2nd June. Maybe the family decided to register his death as the authorities were not doing it. That's just a guess.
I don't think it would be right to post a copy of it here but you can take my word on it.
As I said, next time I'm in the city I'll get the Connolly and Heuston death records to compare the Informant.
Joe

I wasn't doubting your word on it!

Dalcassian

Sorry CeannRua, did not mean to sound snappy!
Just intended to be reassuring.
Joe

Peregrinus

On the face of it, Mallin's widow wasn't obliged by the registration legislation to register his death, while others - e.g. the prison governor - were. But Mallin's widow had an interest in having it registered - she couldn't sort out his affairs without a death cert. - and it may be that when she started to sort out his estate and found the death was still unregistered, she registered it. I suspect the registration authorities were fairly flexible about who registered a death - they wanted to get deaths registered, and wouldn't have put technical obstacles in the way of people seeking to register them.

Dr.Nightdub

I know it sounds unlikely in relation to the 1916 leaders, but not all deaths were registered. Both my great-grandfather and grandmother died in 1934, in Belfast and Clare respectively, but neither of their deaths were registered - believe me, I've checked in both General Register Offices. The GRO in Dublin told me it wasn't unknown - people may not have had the money to pay the legal fee, or may simply have never got around to doing it.

pinkypinky

CeannRua wrote: »

Hi Dalcassian, This is the 1863 Bill for the registration of births and deaths in Ireland
http://eppi.dippam.ac.uk/documents/14445/eppi_pages/173956

It says that deaths (section 35) are to be registered either by someone who witnessed death, someone who was in attendance during final illness or the Occupier of the House or Tenement (would Mallin's wife have fulfilled any of these requirements?) The definition of Occupier includes the Governor etc of Gaols.

I don't know anything about military procedures that pedroeibar mentions or whether they would have impacted on this; or if this legislation was amended before 1916 but if you can figure this out it might will help you. My guess is that the Occupier or someone who was present should have registered the deaths but a guess is all it is (based on hospital / workhouse certs I've seen). I've never seen a death cert for someone who died in a prison. Perhaps if you post on the Genealogy forum, someone there might have seen one and be able to tell you who the informant was.

While I haven't seen a prison death record, one of my ancestors died in Grangegorman. Her address is given as her home, but the place of death is the hospital. The informant is identified as another inmate, present at death.

Luca Brasi

Dalcassian wrote: »

I have been looking at the history of the revolt in Dublin in 1916 and the execution of the leaders and others. When I tried to get the death records on family research on the Latter Day Saints website I could not find anything!
Anyone got any idea where to look?
Do the GRO in Abbey Street have the records?
Please advise.

Not sure if it is helpful but I obtained a death cert of a Volunteer from my area that was killed in action in Dublin in 1920. I got it in the Registry of Deaths in Townsend St, just off Pearse St. Joyce House. An inquest was held by a Military Tribunal and they notified the civilian authority of the circumstances

pinkypinky

Luca Brasi wrote: »

Not sure if it is helpful but I obtained a death cert of a Volunteer from my area that was killed in action in Dublin in 1920. I got it in the Registry of Deaths in Townsend St, just off Pearse St. Joyce House. An inquest was held by a Military Tribunal and they notified the civilian authority of the circumstances

Joyce House on Lombard St now only deals with current births deaths and marriages - the research reading room moved to Abbey St in 2007.

Dalcassian

Amazing! I was in the GRO in Abbey Street today and examined the index book for 1916. What I found was this:
James Connolly (2) 1916 Dublin South 2-477
John Joseph Heuston (2) 1916 D/S 2-477
Michael Mallin (2) 1916 D/S 2-477
One possible for Thomas McDonagh (2) 1916 D/S 2-605 (Aged 46Years)
and one possible Thomas MacDonagh (3) 1916 D/S 2-425.

Could not find any of the other ten executed leaders so I asked the staff at the desk. I was told that Bertie Aherne got the deaths registered in 2000! I obtained printouts of the entries and there they all were.
Patrick H Pearse 3rd May 1916. Cause of death was given as "probable cause of death Gunshot Wounds"! The Informant was given as "on the authority of an t-Ard Chlaraitheoir". Dated 14th April 2000.

Thomas J Clarke, 3rd May 1916.
William Pearse, 4th May 1916.
Joseph Plunkett, 4th May 1916.
Edward Daly, 4th May 1916.
Michael O'Hanrahan, 4th May 1916.
John McBride, 5th May 1916.
Eamonn Ceannt, 8th May 1916.
Con Colbert, 8th May 1916.
Sean MacDiarmada,12th May 1916.

Can anybody shed some light on Bertie's involvement (if any!) in the registeration of the deaths in 2000?

pinkypinky

That rings a bell but I can't find any newspaper sources for it.

Dalcassian

Further information on the death of James Connolly. 12th May 1916 at The Detention Barracks, Kilmainham. Cause of death is entered as "shooting by order of Field General Court Martial". Informant was Lillie Connolly, Widow of deceased from her home address on the 16th June 1916.
John Joseph Heuston on the 8th May 1916 at the same place. Cause of death was given as "Execution at the Detention Barracks Kilmainham Certified". Informant was his mother Maria Heuston from her home address on the 1st June 1916.

The word "Certified" after cause of death is interesting. Does this mean that Heustons body was examined by a qualified doctor before being thrown into the quicklime pit in Arbour Hill?

Peregrinus

Dalcassian wrote: »

. . . The word "Certified" after cause of death is interesting. Does this mean that Heustons body was examined by a qualified doctor before being thrown into the quicklime pit in Arbour Hill?

Yes, I think so. "Certified" in this context normally means that the registrar has been shown a death certificate signed by a doctor which sets out what, in the doctor's opinion, has caused the death.

pinkypinky

I agree - certified does mean that. You don't always see it on death certs, particuarly for poorer people who die at home.