Liffey corridor traffic plan to prioritise walkers and cyclists

Jawgap

From the Paper of Record.....


"A radical rearrangement of traffic on the Liffey quays in Dublin is in prospect following the completion next spring of a major study aiming to maximise facilities for cyclists and pedestrians while maintaining priority for buses."

More here

I can already see the froth forming in some people's mouths as they read this bit about the Quays.....

"“The overall purpose of the scheme is to maximise facilities for cyclists and pedestrians, including mobility-impaired facilities, while maintaining priority for buses,” a spokesman for the city council told The Irish Times."

Dermot Illogical

JOE!!!!!!!!

Rewind

Sweet. Fingers crossed it actually happens

seamus

Options being examined by consultants AECOM and Roughan O’Donovan include taking traffic off the north quays, limiting one side of the river to buses and cyclists and reversing traffic flows.

To me that sounds like a solution right there. The south quays are a bit more haphazard than the north, so make the north quays two-way and switch the south quays into a two-way bus and cycle facility.
There's a bit of a pinch point at Aston Quay, but if you remove the riverside path there (maybe even put in a boardwalk) you could make more space.

Tombo2001

only one way to do this and that is to have a seperate section entirely for cyclists....as in a physical division between where motor vehicles are and where bikes are.

If they dont to this then well......they may as well not do anything at all......in fact it would be worse to put in a poxy red cycle lane and pretend they have done something than to just warn cyclists away from the quays.

rp

Title got my hopes up for a Liffey Corridor Bicycle Super Highway starting at Leixlip...

Iwannahurl

The Irish Times ran a series on Reinventing Dublin last week.

They published some readers' feedback in the Weekend edition, and I liked this suggestion:

Stop traffic going along the Liffey, thereby cleaning the air, reducing the noise, and rejuvenating and re-energising the heart of the city for the people.

It will bring people back into the centre of Dublin, the tourists will love it, and it will reconnect the city in a pleasant, healthy way. On the north bank (where the sun is) allow terraces, cafes and so on, and make it a park and promenade, with a cycle and skate path extending from Phoenix Park to the O2.

RobertFoster

Iwannahurl wrote: »

On the north bank (where the sun is) allow terraces, cafes and so on, and make it a park and promenade, with a cycle and skate path extending from Phoenix Park to the O2.

That sounds nice, but if it means having to dodge pedestrians from Castleknock to the O2 like you currently have to do in the park, I don't know. I enjoy cycling the quays as it is, mainly as the motorised traffic is slow and you can get a good tail wind.

If cross traffic at the bridges start to get priority, will the Liffey cycle route mirror the Grand Canal route? Great facilities, but if you actually want to get anywhere, use another route.

monument

The news bit here is that they are going to public constulation on options.

I've written about it before for the Sunday Times and Cycling in Dublin... Second link includes some of the early route option concepts:

http://cyclingindublin.com/2012/08/17/we-have-to-do-quays-cycle-route-senior-dublin-city-engineer/

http://cyclingindublin.com/2011/11/07/dutch-style-cycle-path-on-dublins-quays/

From what I understand, bringing the boardwalk up the river would not help with the space issue as people walking down it would have to come back inside the quay walls every time the boardwalk intersects with a bridge. Extending the boardwalk the whole way along the river seems like the opposite of what the project is about -- ie redefining the space inside the quay walls -- and it would seem like something which could hold the plans back rather help them.

monument

rp wrote: »

Title got my hopes up for a Liffey Corridor Bicycle Super Highway starting at Leixlip...

The NTA are also doing a cycling network review for all of Dublin and when I was talking to them about the quays I was unpromptedly told that they and the city are looking at options west beyond the city centre quays.

ROK ON

Would the quay devoted to cycling be inbound and outbound - I am unclear having read the article.
Presently the northbound quay is reasonably fine for commuting.
South quay (outbound) is a proper pita.

Lusk Doyle

I feel that this would be best "debated" in After Hours...

niceonetom

"walkers and cyclists"... now there's a chilling conflation.

hardCopy

Lusk Doyle wrote: »

I feel that this would be best "debated" in After Hours...

Ssshhhhh...

If nobody tells them this might get built before they notice.

monument

ROK ON wrote: »

Would the quay devoted to cycling be inbound and outbound - I am unclear having read the article.
Presently the northbound quay is reasonably fine for commuting.
South quay (outbound) is a proper pita.

The early concepts both pointed to two-way on the river side of the north quays but its not yet clear what option or options are going to public consultation.

See my links above for more on the original concepts.

Doctor Bob

ROK ON wrote: »

Would the quay devoted to cycling be inbound and outbound - I am unclear having read the article.

There's a simple explanation for your uncertainty- a design hasn't been decided. It's an odd story to run, really, as there's nothing yet to discuss. As mentioned in the story, the study will be completed next year, but until then all we have is conjecture and speculation.

At first I wondered why the IT bothered publishing it, and where Frank McDonald got his information. Then I remembered that Mr Copenhagenize made a passing mention of it in both his recent lecture at Engineers Ireland and a blog post the other day, so perhaps Frank is just fleshing this out in light of the recent IT series on the future of Dublin. Odd timing, though.

monument wrote: »

The early concepts both pointed to two-way on the river side of the north quays but its not yet clear what option or options are going to public consultation.

See my links above for more on the original concepts.

The 'early concepts' were the results of a workshop where innovative thinking was encouraged. It was never intended that those results would form the basis of any future scheme, and to the best of my knowledge this current study started with a blank slate, i.e. should not be viewed as the next phase of the 'Dream In' . Having said that, there are few enough realistic or achievable options for a cross-city east-west route, so you'd have to think that the workshop proposals might feature in any deliberations.

monument

Doctor Bob wrote: »

There's a simple explanation for your uncertainty- a design hasn't been decided. It's an odd story to run, really, as there's nothing yet to discuss. As mentioned in the story, the study will be completed next year, but until then all we have is conjecture and speculation.

At first I wondered why the IT bothered publishing it, and where Frank McDonald got his information. Then I remembered that Mr Copenhagenize made a passing mention of it in both his recent lecture at Engineers Ireland and a blog post the other day, so perhaps Frank is just fleshing this out in light of the recent IT series on the future of Dublin. Odd timing, though.

At the start of the month I someone passed on the info that there would be some sort of 'public forum' on the project. I'm gussing some sort of early public consultation, but have not had the time to enquire any details.

If it was not for other work getting in the way, I'd have been writting a story on the same.

Doctor Bob wrote: »

The 'early concepts' were the results of a workshop where innovative thinking was encouraged. It was never intended that those results would form the basis of any future scheme, and to the best of my knowledge this current study started with a blank slate, i.e. should not be viewed as the next phase of the 'Dream In' . Having said that, there are few enough realistic or achievable options for a cross-city east-west route, so you'd have to think that the workshop proposals might feature in any deliberations.

Well said.

Before the workshop I was a sceptic anything could be done on the quays (I'm now just a sceptic on if the will is there, if the motoring side will shout the loudest etc), but it was refreshing that the NTA and the city council were willing to look at reworking traffic and that reworking things beyond the quays seems to have stuck with the more offical part of the project so-far.

galwaycyclist

monument wrote: »

Before the workshop I was a sceptic anything could be done on the quays (I'm now just a sceptic on if the will is there, if the motoring side will shout the loudest etc), but it was refreshing that the NTA and the city council were willing to look at reworking traffic and that reworking things beyond the quays seems to have stuck with the more offical part of the project so-far.

It will be interesting to see if the car lobby take the bait now. If they don't it might embolden someone to make a firm proposal (and some Minister to back it). They've taken the trucks out - the cars is the next logical step.

hardCopy

galwaycyclist wrote: »

It will be interesting to see if the car lobby take the bait now. If they don't it might embolden someone to make a firm proposal (and some Minister to back it). They've taken the trucks out - the cars is the next logical step.

I'm just waiting now for Gerry "Car Parks" Breen to chime in with his usual valuable contribution to the debate.

Jawgap

galwaycyclist wrote: »

It will be interesting to see if the car lobby take the bait now. If they don't it might embolden someone to make a firm proposal (and some Minister to back it). They've taken the trucks out - the cars is the next logical step.

I presume, as well, that the new Luas greenline extension to Broombridge given that it will have to cross the quays twice will have some impact on their thinking.

doozerie

I travel along the North quays from Inn's Quay to North Wall Quay each morning. I find it mostly fine as it is currently - it's got a bus lane most of the way and unless you wish to take a right turn off the quays I find it one of the least stressful, and quickest, parts of my commute.

Ironically, the most consistently dangerous bit is where I encounter the only stretch of cycle track, along Eden Quay, because many motorists (and cyclists too) simply ignore the existence of traffic lanes there entirely, indicators appear not to work, and some motorists will happily "encourage" (i.e. "shove" in anyone else's language) everything out of their way with their car/truck/bus. Plus, Eden Quay being the point where the 50kph speed limit ends means some motorists see it as acceptable to slam the accelerator along there as if life owes them back that minute or two (if that) that they incurred by largely pretending to observe the reduced speed limit.

Of course, my largely positive experiences of that stretch of the north quays may not be representative of the rest of the quays. I'm not a fan of the south quays for the same stretch, and the north quays certainly are mayhem for anyone looking to turn right over some of the bridges (I'd hate to be a bus driver trying to get from the bus lane to the right-turning lane to go over O'Connell Bridge, for example), but I just hope that any changes applied to the quays don't throw out the good with the bad. We've had enough of that approach already, and the mention of segregated cycling infrastructure in the article makes me wary.

Jawgap

@doozerie - are you sure you posted this in the right thread, shouldn't it have gone here

doozerie

@Jawgap, My grumbles shall not be corralled, not even my pre-emptive grumbles!

If they were held captive in a single thread they'd just spawn a host of new grumbles which would get overly familiar with their grumble kin and then things would get really ugly. There'd be dungarees and banjos and everything.

mitosis

Why not look beyond the obvious, make the North Quays closed to cyclists and use the Luas corridor Chancery st/Abbey st etc as a Luas/cycleway closed to other vehicles?

monument

mitosis wrote: »

Why not look beyond the obvious, make the North Quays closed to cyclists and use the Luas corridor Chancery st/Abbey st etc as a Luas/cycleway closed to other vehicles?

Higher frequency tram services such as Luas do not mix well with cyclists and there's no room to keep both separate along the Luas line.

All the ideas so-far for the quays seem radical and very much so thinking out of the box and beyond the obvious!

The quay side is also a lot more attractive than the sometimes narrow streets along the Luas line.

buffalo

mitosis wrote: »

Why not look beyond the obvious, make the North Quays closed to cyclists and use the Luas corridor Chancery st/Abbey st etc as a Luas/cycleway closed to other vehicles?

That's a great image in my head of a modern city - tram ding-dinging along, lots of cyclists rolling alongside. The problem spots would be places like in front of Collins' Barracks, Smithfield, or the back of Jervis, where there's no parallel roadway. Cyclists would then have to cycle in the path of the Luas, which will delay the Luas, and is dangerous for the cyclists because of the tracks.

MediaMan

I'm wondering if there is anything we can do to increase the chances that the aim to "maximise facilities for cyclists and pedestrians" actually translates into something that actually achieves that result, rather than following the model of the existing "facilities" which hinder and endanger cyclists.

My brainwave is that everyone who has any decision-making role in this initiative should be required to bike it around the city centre for a couple of weeks.

ROK ON

Thinking more about this today. Can't ever see this happening - the infrastructure doesn't presently exist that you could funnel traffic coming from the west down past Hueston and them off the quays and up the backstreets.

I could see a cycling infrastructure being pushed up alongside the Luas as a compromise. I would prefer the status quo than be forced alongside the Luas.

monument

ROK ON wrote: »

Thinking more about this today. Can't ever see this happening - the infrastructure doesn't presently exist that you could funnel traffic coming from the west down past Hueston and them off the quays and up the backstreets.

I could see a cycling infrastructure being pushed up alongside the Luas as a compromise. I would prefer the status quo than be forced alongside the Luas.

Only one of the concepts pushes traffic up the back streets - and even if you were to go down that kind of road I don't think they picked the best route.

Another option is two-way general traffic on the south quays.

rp

I wonder if the 'innovative thinking' has reached the levels it has in London:

(http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2198032/SkyCycle-Artists-impression-gives-stunning-vision-Boris-planned-elevated-London-bike-network.html)

Doctor Bob

rp wrote: »

I wonder if the 'innovative thinking' has reached the levels it has in London

Thankfully not.

hardCopy

rp wrote: »

I wonder if the 'innovative thinking' has reached the levels it has in London:

(http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2198032/SkyCycle-Artists-impression-gives-stunning-vision-Boris-planned-elevated-London-bike-network.html)

I hope we can surpass their photoshop skills at least.

Iwannahurl

They said it couldn't be done...






... and as far as I know it hasn't been done. Yet.

35 km covered (and cooled) cycle path planned for Doha in Qatar. That was 2006, and then global economic meltdown intervened.

If you want to throw money at grandiose projects in the name of cycling, then it helps to be Emir Hamad bin Khalifa al Thani or Boris Johnson.

Otherwise, often all that's needed is to take trucks, cars and excessive speed out of the picture.

monument

Doctor Bob wrote: »

Thankfully not.

Indeed, Boris has been attacked for even entertaining the err... pie in the sky idea. Many have said he should be dealing with the use of streets and roads.

There's loads of problem trying to attach cycle ways to the side of the London rail network given that the approaches to the city are often underground or passing by building or in trenches with no free space. And Boris then rejected the idea for those reasons: http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/lack-of-railway-space-rules-out-cycle-paths-in-the-sky-turned-down-by-mayor-8225978.html

rp

I was thinking something alone the lines of the Schwebebahn in Wuppertal, you could hang a Heuston-Point light rail under it, and have cyclepaths/scenic walkways along the top. Worth it for the tourist value alone!

Lumen

Monorail!

doozerie

A cosy Irish monorail-ish thing:



Can we do it? Yes, we can!

Should we do it though? Maybe not!

ROK ON

doozerie wrote: »

A cosy Irish monorail-ish thing:



Can we do it? Yes, we can!

Should we do it though? Maybe not!

That is on a cycling route I sometimes do. A few years ago the missus wanted me to go on it. Drove there, took one look and drive away.