Can boss insist I do overtime?

Whiplashy

I'm on a part time contract but in general I work full time because no one else ever seems to want any overtime. Under my part time rota, I was due to be off for three days between Christmas and New Year. I made plans for a small break during this time ages ago and made my boss aware that I wouldn't be available on these days. I have agreed to every bit of overtime offered to me and am working way more hours than anyone else over the Christmas period. Yet my boss keeps making comments about needing to review the days I won't be available. Every time it gets brought up I stress that I have already booked and paid for my trip and made her aware of it at the time of booking. Can she actually insist that I work these days?

Wils110

No

Procrastastudy

Title Question - Yes
Post Question - probably not
Other considerations - have you been there less than a year, are you xmas staff hoping to be employed after xmas?

horsemaster

I understand how you must be feeling and it is not fair. But I think your boss can insist that you do work overtime. But I do think you have been doing right by doing overtime before so that you can have the time off on those days you requested. If you feel very strongly about it, you can leave the company. Chances are, your boss might do this again to you so there might be some thinking for you to do before you decide anything. I wish bosses show more empathy to their staff. There are many good bosses out there. Maybe your boss is one and has genuine reasons for giving you work during the times time you requested off. Hard to say. But I do wish you get the time off and get to enjoy your well deserved break. Chins up!

Captain Commie

Pure and simple, what does your contract say? if it says that you may be required to work over time then yes, she can make you work it, if it doesnt then she has no right to insist on it, she can request but thats as far as she is allowed to take it.

Stheno

If you've the time booked off, are you actually scheduled for your full working week on those days?

If you are not, then your boss could say that due to the needs of the business, they cannot give you the time off.

tatli_lokma

The important thing here, is whether or not you had booked these days off officially. If so then your employer should really compensate you for cancelling this leave. If however you did not officially notify your boss that you are unavailable to work, and did not get approval for this, then the decision lies with your employer.

citizens information wrote:

It is for your employer to decide when annual leave may be taken, but this is subject to a number of conditions. Your employer must take into account your family responsibilities, opportunities for rest and recreation that are available to you and to consult with you (or your union) at least one month before the leave is to be taken.

Also, if you have worked primarily full time, then make sure you are getting your correct annual leave allocation. If you have worked more than 1365 then you are entitled to full time leave (i.e 20 days). If you have not been given this, then this could be a bargaining tool you have to use - i.e point out to the boss that infact you have not yet been afforded your legal statutory minimum leave entitlement in this current year and if you don't take 3 days at Christmas then this carryover will be even higher.

Dodge

In reality if you tell the boss you've booked a trip as she already agreed to the leave, she'll probably just grumble and get on with it. If ti becomes a discussion I'd point out how much overtime you've done as proof you're "committed to the company"

Whiplashy

I didn't officially notify her of the leave because it's not annual leave. I am still working my contracted hours (plus extra hours) that week. I did send her an email months ago though to inform her that I wouldn't be available to cover these days if cover was required. At the time she said it was fine, but now that cover is going to be required she's changed her mind!

green123

Procrastastudy wrote: »

Title Question - Yes

so you are saying that an employer can insist that an employee does overtime ?

so all employees must be ready to cancel their weekend or evening plans anytime an employer tells them that they must do overtime ?

i dont think that is the case.

alot of people seemed to have missed the point of this thread - can an employer insist that an employee does overtime above and beyond the normal working week ?

i think that all an employee has to do is their normal hours. i think overtime is optional.

Stheno

Whiplashy wrote: »

I didn't officially notify her of the leave because it's not annual leave. I am still working my contracted hours (plus extra hours) that week. I did send her an email months ago though to inform her that I wouldn't be available to cover these days if cover was required. At the time she said it was fine, but now that cover is going to be required she's changed her mind!

Are you on a minimum hours contract? e.g. 16 hours a week minimum?
How many hours are you scheduled for that week?

green123 wrote: »

so you are saying that an employer can insist that an employee does overtime ?

so all employees must be ready to cancel their weekend or evening plans anytime an employer tells them that they must do overtime ?

i dont think that is the case.

alot of people seemed to have missed the point of this thread - can an employer insist that an employee does overtime above and beyond the normal working week ?

i think that all an employee has to do is their normal hours. i think overtime is optional.

Depends on the contract, pretty much every one I've had has a clause in where "overtime may be required"

Whiplashy

I'm contracted for 20 hours a week. That week I am already down to work 32 hours, including Christmas Eve, Christmas Day and Stephens day. The following week I'm working 37 hours, including New Year's Eve and New Year's Day. I really don't think I'm being unreasonable to not want to cancel my plans.

LeinsterDub

Stheno wrote: »

Are you on a minimum hours contract? e.g. 16 hours a week minimum?
How many hours are you scheduled for that week?


Depends on the contract, pretty much every one I've had has a clause in where "overtime may be required"

Employers have to be reasonable too if your a full time 9 to 5 Monday to Friday and you take 2 weeks off to go to Spain you don't have to put in to leave for the Saturday/Sunday nor can they demand you work them .

Stheno

Whiplashy wrote: »

I'm contracted for 20 hours a week. That week I am already down to work 32 hours, including Christmas Eve, Christmas Day and Stephens day. The following week I'm working 37 hours, including New Year's Eve and New Year's Day. I really don't think I'm being unreasonable to not want to cancel my plans.

I think this may be your issue here. If your contract says a minimum of 20 hours per week, then that assumes that you will do additional hours. On that basis your boss per se is not giving you overtime just additional hours within a "normal" working week of 40 hours. Also going by your first post where you say you normally work fulltime, you've established a pattern of working with your employer.

Does your contract say minimum of 20 hours?

I think your best bet here is to politely explain to your boss, preferably in writing that you have long term plans in place that have cost you to pay for in advance and ask that she not roster you for those days.

However if it's a busy time of year for the business, she can use "business need" as a reason for not giving you the time off, particularly as you haven't officially booked it as annual leave.

green123

Stheno wrote: »

Depends on the contract, pretty much every one I've had has a clause in where "overtime may be required"

and you are required to do 100% of it ? no matter how much or how unreasonable ?

for a normal full time job with regular hours and set working days i am fairly sure that overtime is optional.
even for a part time job if you have normal days then they are your normal days that you must work, any extra days are optional overtime.

can anybody find an official link dealing with overtime and if it is a requirement to do it or if it is optional ?

Stheno

green123 wrote: »

and you are required to do 100% of it ? no matter how much or how unreasonable ?

for a normal full time job with regular hours and set working days i am fairly sure that overtime is optional.
even for a part time job if you have normal days then they are your normal days that you must work, any extra days are optional overtime.

can anybody find an official link dealing with overtime and if it is a requirement to do it or if it is optional ?

There are no official guidelines on overtime, closest I can think of is the Working Time directive. http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/hours_of_work/working_week.html

Most jobs where overtime was required, yes you did it, in fairness it was usually three or four hours a couple of times a week.

In the OPs case, they are not talking about overtime per se in my opinion, they are talking about doing above their minimum contracted hours, and they do mention in their first post that they normally work fulltime.

For me overtime is any hours in excess of e.g. 37.5 - 40 hours.

Whiplashy

My contract states that I am employed for 20 hours a week, not 20 hours minimum a week. It also states that flexibility is required which I think I have been. The extra hours every week are classed as overtime. I fill in an overtime form at the end of each month to get paid for them. Overtime is supposed to be divided equally but I have been working pretty much full time now for over 6 months because no one else wants the overtime. I'm not getting any additional annual leave and no extra pay for Sundays, even though the full time staff do.

Stheno

Whiplashy wrote: »

My contract states that I am employed for 20 hours a week, not 20 hours minimum a week. It also states that flexibility is required which I think I have been. The extra hours every week are classed as overtime. I fill in an overtime form at the end of each month to get paid for them. Overtime is supposed to be divided equally but I have been working pretty much full time now for over 6 months because no one else wants the overtime. I'm not getting any additional annual leave and no extra pay for Sundays, even though the full time staff do.

That doesn't sound right, especially the Sundays, if you check the link I posted earlier.

If your contract says 20 hours a week and flexibility is required, then you've a case to make to your boss that you have been flexible and they might consider not scheduling you for those days in consideration of it?

green123

Stheno wrote: »

However if it's a busy time of year for the business, she can use "business need" as a reason for not giving you the time off, particularly as you haven't officially booked it as annual leave.

but the op has said that there was no need to book the time off because they were not due to be working them them days normally. them days are the overtime days.
for example, a full time mon-fri employee would never book a saturday or sunday off because its not part of their normal working week, an employer couldnt insist that they work the weekend

Stheno

green123 wrote: »

but the op has said that there was no need to book the time off because they were not due to be working them them days normally. them days are the overtime days.
for example, a full time mon-fri employee would never book a saturday or sunday off because its not part of their normal working week, an employer couldnt insist that they work the weekend

That was according to their rota, they didn't say that they wouldn't normally work those days. No the OPs boss wants to change the rota, if the time off was officially booked and approved, this wouldn't be an issue

Op can still make a case to the manager to get the time off.

green123

Whiplashy wrote: »

My contract states that I am employed for 20 hours a week, not 20 hours minimum a week. It also states that flexibility is required which I think I have been. The extra hours every week are classed as overtime. I fill in an overtime form at the end of each month to get paid for them. Overtime is supposed to be divided equally but I have been working pretty much full time now for over 6 months because no one else wants the overtime. I'm not getting any additional annual leave and no extra pay for Sundays, even though the full time staff do.

does it say which days you work ? or is that decided on a week to week basis ?

anyway why is everybody else allowed to get away with doing so little overtime ? and why are you being put under pressure to do it all ?

Nody

Whiplashy wrote: »

My contract states that I am employed for 20 hours a week, not 20 hours minimum a week. It also states that flexibility is required which I think I have been. The extra hours every week are classed as overtime. I fill in an overtime form at the end of each month to get paid for them. Overtime is supposed to be divided equally but I have been working pretty much full time now for over 6 months because no one else wants the overtime. I'm not getting any additional annual leave and no extra pay for Sundays, even though the full time staff do.

You should get 8% of your worked hours as holidays (capped at 20 days) and I'd follow up on that.

tatli_lokma

Whiplashy wrote: »

My contract states that I am employed for 20 hours a week, not 20 hours minimum a week. It also states that flexibility is required which I think I have been. The extra hours every week are classed as overtime. I fill in an overtime form at the end of each month to get paid for them.

I think the term 'overtime' is misleading here OP - As Stheno says this should not really be classed as overtime per se, more so as extra hours. Once you start to refer to this time as extra hours and not overtime it takes on a very different meaning.

Whiplashy wrote:

Overtime is supposed to be divided equally but I have been working pretty much full time now for over 6 months because no one else wants the overtime. I'm not getting any additional annual leave and no extra pay for Sundays, even though the full time staff do.

I find this really odd - in the current climate it is strange that people are turning down extra hours. That aside, if you are working 37.5 hours min per week for 6 mths, and at least your 20 hours per week for the other six months, then you are definitely over your 1365 minimum requirement and therefore are ENTITLED to your statutory minimum of 20 days paid annual leave. I think this is the information you need to take to your boss - point out that they owe you annual leave, and that in 2013 further overtime will also lead to you having increased annual leave entitlements.

This might make them reconsider how they portion out the extra hours.

At the end of the day, once you make yourself available to do your 20 hours, then you are meeting your contract. And as long as they give you 20 hours the employer is meeting theirs. You cannot be made to do extra hours, but if you are there less than a year, you might find that there is no longer a job for you if you turn down extra hours.

You mention that you emailed your boss - did you get a reply in writing or verbally. If it is in writing, then remind them that they already agreed to you not working these days and on the strength of this agreement you made arrangements which if cancelled at this late stage will result in a financial loss to you. If the boss needs you so badly and no one else will do, then they should a) agree to allow your unused AL to be carried forward into 2013 and b) reimburse you for any financial costs of cancelling your plans so that you can work.

Also bear in mind, you will be due a premium for working public holidays over Christmas - if this is given in the form of additional time off, then this could make an already difficult to manage leave situation worse.

Whiplashy

The current climate is the exact reason why people don't want overtime. They would rather work 20 hours over three days and claim social welfare than work extra days and not get the hand out way too many people see as an entitlement.

I have no written acknowledgement of the email I sent my boss unfortunately. I will be getting paid double time for the public holidays so I can't really use extra annual leave as a bargaining tool either. I'm not going to work the extra days though. I'm just hoping that the worst will happen is a written warning.

Procrastastudy

Little Ted wrote: »

I find this really odd - in the current climate it is strange that people are turning down extra hours.

I suspect the OP works in retail - this is classic retail poor management and recruiting. They probably hired a load of student who have all dug in their heels about working certain days and the OP is the only one who actually gives a crap about keep the job so has ended up being the go to guy for over time.

Retailer probably had loads of CVs with people who were more experienced but probably didn't hire them on the strength of feeling threatened.