better tyre grip = faster wear myth?

glasshopper

I usually buy a good brand of tyre for safety, wear, fuel efficiency and low road noise. I was told by the tyre salesman after telling him I was disappointed by the quick wear on the Bridgestone Turanza that because I had better grip on them they wear out faster. They only lasted 1 yr about 10k to 12k max on the front of a Corolla Verso. :mad:
I swopped my Kia Ceed Michelins that lasted 48k (on the front) with the Bridgestone Turanza (newer one) and they are also wearing out at a rate of knots.
Any good quality all rounder recommendations?
Any response to the tyre salesman?

kirving

Generally, a tyre with better grip will will wear out faster, as it is made of a softer rubber compound. Incorrect wheel alignment, over/under-inflation, front/rear wheel drive, weight distribution, and a range of other factors will also effect how long the tyre lasts.

keithsfleet

High performance rubber is softer so it makes it grippier and yes they will run out quicker.
I've had good wear with perelli p7000, they are comfortable and grippy and lastd a good while on a 200bhp front wheel drive mitsubishi.

Supergurrier

I hear most Chinese tyres last a lifetime :pac:

dgt

Supergurrier wrote: »

I hear most Chinese tyres last a lifetime :pac:

Don't start that vicious triangle.......











*get's coat, jumps through window

gollywog

Supergurrier wrote: »

I hear most Chinese tyres last a lifetime :pac:

Yes and so does the resulting death from crashing into a telephone pole! :rolleyes:

Supergurrier

gollywog wrote: »

Yes and so does the resulting death from crashing into a telephone pole! :rolleyes:

Can i get a sarcasm filter up in here

gollywog

Supergurrier wrote: »

Can i get a sarcasm filter up in here

Mycroft H

I had michelen's fuel economy tyre before. They last ages and I've never felt short of grip.

Pottler

BX 19 wrote: »

I had michelen's fuel economy tyre before. They last ages and I've never felt short of grip.

which michelins are they bx?

slimjimmc

glasshopper wrote: »

I usually buy a good brand of tyre for safety, wear, fuel efficiency and low road noise. I was told by the tyre salesman after telling him I was disappointed by the quick wear on the Bridgestone Turanza that because I had better grip on them they wear out faster. They only lasted 1 yr about 10k to 12k max on the front of a Corolla Verso. :mad:
I swopped my Kia Ceed Michelins that lasted 48k (on the front) with the Bridgestone Turanza (newer one) and they are also wearing out at a rate of knots.
Any good quality all rounder recommendations?
Any response to the tyre salesman?

That seems very excessive. I had Turanzas on a Megane and they lasted twice that mileage.

Mycroft H

Pottler wrote: »

which michelins are they bx?

Michelin Classic Radial X

http://www.ityre.com/en/tyres/catalog/michelin/model/4347/

glasshopper

Back to Michelins it is so. €100/tyre a fiver better than the Bridgestone too. Previous Bridgestones wore well, it's just the new Turanza has shocked me and I don't think I used that extra grip I supposedly got, but I won't knock the grip level that said.

corkgsxr

BX 19 wrote: »

I had michelen's fuel economy tyre before. They last ages and I've never felt short of grip.

Brutal in icey conditions.

Bridgestones tend to wear fast alright. Saying that a non named bridgestone tire lassa has great grip and 20k miles plus to a set.

Iv found cheap brands tend to wear faster for less grip.

Mycroft H

corkgsxr wrote: »

Brutal in icey conditions.

Bridgestones tend to wear fast alright. Saying that a non named bridgestone tire lassa has great grip and 20k miles plus to a set.

Iv found cheap brands tend to wear faster for less grip.

I've not found them lacking to be honest, they're grand, plus there is more to grip then tyres. There at the cheaper end of the decent tyre spectrum, so your paying for what you get.

Cuddlesworth

BX 19 wrote: »

plus there is more to grip then tyres.

Please do enlighten me with your wisdom.

corkgsxr

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Side wall thickness
Noise levels
Wear rates
Load capacity
Rolling Resistance

That`s all I can think of at the moment.

If you have proper spec for your car of those only noise and rolling resistance are to be considered rest are to meet the spec of the car

Personally in importance first grip then mileage and lastly noise.

Ok grip is fine but at times you need very good grip. I'd prefer never to be found lacking

Cuddlesworth

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Side wall thickness
Noise levels
Wear rates
Load capacity
Rolling Resistance

That`s all I can think of at the moment.

All of which relate to the tires.

Supergurrier

Tyres help grip but grip is not determined 100% by tyres, suspension spring setup/weight distribution/camber and rigidity are all factors too and some other stuff im sure

AugustusMinimus

Supergurrier wrote: »

Tyres help grip but grip is not determined 100% by tyres, suspension spring setup/weight distribution/camber and rigidity are all factors too and some other stuff im sure

The weight of your car also affects grip.

The heavier your car, the more grip you have.

kirving

However, the heavier the car, the greater the force on the tyre under braking and cornering. Swings and roundabouts really.

Supergurrier

Weight distribution more than weight tbh, if your car is set up to have neutraly balanced weight it will grip better

AugustusMinimus

Kevin Irving wrote: »

However, the heavier the car, the greater the force on the tyre under braking and cornering. Swings and roundabouts really.

Helps when pulling a trailer though.

Syllabus

glasshopper wrote: »

Back to Michelins it is so. €100/tyre a fiver better than the Bridgestone too. Previous Bridgestones wore well, it's just the new Turanza has shocked me and I don't think I used that extra grip I supposedly got, but I won't knock the grip level that said.

if its a corolla then i presume u have 205/55r16s on it?

if so the new B/Stone T001 which replaces the ER300 should give better mileage plus, if it is the correct size, should 15-20 cheaper then the Mich



its worth baring in mind also that u will never get the same milage out of subsequent tyres, regardless of make, than the original tyres due to wear and tear

slimjimmc

LIGHTNING wrote: »

That doesn't make any sense! Somebody posted there is more to tyres than grip. You then asked like what? I posted some more characteristics and you reply with "which relate to the tires"

Yes the characteristic of an item do relate to the item as that's the idea.

Actually what was posted was

BX 19 wrote: »

there is more to grip then tyres.

Cuddlesworth

Supergurrier wrote: »

Tyres help grip but grip is not determined 100% by tyres, suspension spring setup/weight distribution/camber and rigidity are all factors too and some other stuff im sure

And in a normal car for normal driving conditions, they are set to the manufacturers optimum settings or there is a mechanical issue with the car.

If somebody comes onto this forum saying they have no grip, you don't see posts telling them to adjust their suspension or to strip out the rear seats and drop in a carbon fibre bonnet to loose weight. You tell them to change tires because in a normal car tires are the major factor in grip with everything else being negligible in relation.

Mr.David

Supergurrier wrote: »

Weight distribution more than weight tbh, if your car is set up to have neutraly balanced weight it will grip better

Well yes, but weight distribution just determines the relative weights at each of the four tyres so it is essentially weight that is important.

The whole tyre grip thing can be boiled down to one simple formula, with some not so simple consequences:

F=uN

We want a high F (frictional force). That can be achieved in ONLY two ways:

a) Increase u, the coefficient of friction
This will be a result of the tyre compound, road surface, temperature etc.....

b) Increase N
This is the normal force, basically the force pushing the tyre against the road. The greater the weight, the higher the N. Of course there are other factors that for a given vehicle will influence the relative values of N but it more or less boils down to weight.

Now for something to mull over for the rest of the day and melt your brain......if the grip generated is solely a function of the two factors above (and it is), why have wider tyres on sports cars (given that tyre grip is independent of surface area!!!)?

CJhaughey

Mr.David wrote: »

Now for something to mull over for the rest of the day and melt your brain......if the grip generated is solely a function of the two factors above (and it is), why have wider tyres on sports cars (given that tyre grip is independent of surface area!!!)?

Because on a typical low profile wide tyre the contact patch distorts less under hard cornering than a narrower tyre that has a higher profile and a longer contact patch.
Even if the contact patch is exactly the same size.

corkgsxr

Tires work in a weight range. Too little or too much weight will affect grip.

Saying more weight equals more grip is wrong. Go above a tires weight range and it won't grip as well.

You just take weight into it either, power, cornering and braking force needs to be.considered

But all this is pointless, the car has a spec size, you have to take it he's not going to change wheels. Mechanical changes can alter mileage vs grip, but he's not going to change the mechanics of the car besides maintaining it. So back to brand choice.

Get lassa tires if you can. Good price and a few garages I know stopped supplying they as they lasted too long. Plenty of grip too

mathepac

He said -

BX 19 wrote: »

... plus there is more to grip then tyres. ...

you thought he said

LIGHTNING wrote: »

... there is more to tyres than grip. ...

hence all the intervening "stuff".

Mr.David

corkgsxr wrote: »

Tires work in a weight range. Too little or too much weight will affect grip.

Saying more weight equals more grip is wrong. Go above a tires weight range and it won't grip as well.

You just take weight into it either, power, cornering and braking force needs to be.considered

But all this is pointless, the car has a spec size, you have to take it he's not going to change wheels. Mechanical changes can alter mileage vs grip, but he's not going to change the mechanics of the car besides maintaining it. So back to brand choice.

Get lassa tires if you can. Good price and a few garages I know stopped supplying they as they lasted too long. Plenty of grip too

They don't work within a 'weight range'. More weight always means more grip.....they do have limits before they explode of course but thats a separate point.

Power, cornering, braking force all manifest themselves as a Normal force as described in the equation by N. The mechanism that produces the force is broadly irrelevant.

Oh, and don't get Lassa tyres. Really.

joujoujou

OSI wrote: »

While not a steadfast rule, typically the grippier the tyre, the softer the compound, and the quicker they will wear.

Precisely.

OSI wrote: »

In saying that, you'd have to be driving seriously hard to go through tyres that quickly on a Corolla or a Cee'd

I was able to went through a set of Goodyears in one year on my corolla. :cool:

Travelling approx. 65 miles a day (weekdays only) and not on track.

Tyre pressure as well as other factors like suspension, wheel alignment etc. set up properly.

corkgsxr

Mr.David wrote: »

They don't work within a 'weight range'. More weight always means more grip.....they do have limits before they explode of course but thats a separate point.

Power, cornering, braking force all manifest themselves as a Normal force as described in the equation by N. The mechanism that produces the force is broadly irrelevant.

Oh, and don't get Lassa tyres. Really.

Do tell why not.

Iv had them on a 323f, polo, avensis and berlingo in various different compounds/purposes and loved them on all

GTE

I had a set of midrange and grippy Summer Cooper Xeon tyres which lasted me just 10,000 miles on my Mark 4 Golf diesel.

I never ran out of grip during the Summer but once things got cooler even setting off at night with a lot of loud pedal caused a spin up so I wouldn't have liked to have to slam on the brakes in those conditions. For anyone who knows it the T junction at Kilcock for Enfield sometimes needs a quick getaway to cross the road to the provided speeding up lane.

I run Hankook all season tyres now and I expected them to be chewed to bits during the Summer but the fronts have done between 20,000 and 30,000 miles so far, rears have done about 5,000 less and are in great condition. I know 20 to 30k is a huge range to guess but I just cant think of what it is while I soup it up at the moment. I can say that I have done 10,000 miles since May around the higher temps and they are fine. The Coopers really fell away so quickly.

I do feel that the Coopers had more grip in the Summer though. The car does tend to understeer more now if you push it but only if you push it.

I guess this is an interesting thing as I would have thought the All Seasons would be softer than the Summer Coopers.

Zubeneschamali

corkgsxr wrote: »

Do tell why not.

You might crash into me instead of the ditch.

corkgsxr

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

You might crash into me instead of the ditch.

Right. Good one.:rolleyes:

glasshopper

Syllabus wrote: »

if its a corolla then i presume u have 205/55r16s on it?

its worth baring in mind also that u will never get the same milage out of subsequent tyres, regardless of make, than the original tyres due to wear and tear

Yep. 205>55>r16
Interested as to why the same milage will never be achieved again. wear and tear of the suspension parts I presume? I've been wondering how well the tracking etc was done and in a paranoid moment even wondered if not done too well on purpose. the quicker they wear the sooner the next sale. ??

Zubeneschamali

glasshopper wrote: »

Yep. 205>55>r16
Interested as to why the same milage will never be achieved again.

Syllabus just made that up.

The real reason replacement tyres don't grip/last/give mpg like Original Equipment is that people are too cheap to buy the top quality tyres that manufacturers generally fit.

glasshopper

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Syllabus just made that up.

The real reason replacement tyres don't grip/last/give mpg like Original Equipment is that people are too cheap to buy the top quality tyres that manufacturers generally fit.

Not so!!
New Kia Cee'd had Michelins and I got about 58K on the front and the back pair are still good over 65K now. I replaced with the Bridgestone Turanza because I was told they were the best and as it stands they have max 10k before they are slicks.

P.S. driver has not put on weight or developed a heavy foot and with the price of fuel I'd say driving more conservatively. the new turanza (E300) are sh1te. My opinion based on experience and shared with you guys

corkgsxr

glasshopper wrote: »

Not so!!
New Kia Cee'd had Michelins and I got about 58K on the front and the back pair are still good over 65K now. I replaced with the Bridgestone Turanza because I was told they were the best and as it stands they have max 10k before they are slicks.

P.S. driver has not put on weight or developed a heavy foot and with the price of fuel I'd say driving more conservatively. the new turanza (E300) are sh1te. My opinion based on experience and shared with you guys

best grip maybe but wear fast bridgestones just do. if you were to compare you`d have to get the exact same tires again

Joe 90

corkgsxr wrote: »

best grip maybe but wear fast bridgestones just do. if you were to compare you`d have to get the exact same tires again

How the world has changed. Years ago when the Japs started to produce the occasional interesting car they tended to come on Bridgestones which were diabolical in those days. In fact Japanese tyres were diabolical in those days, full stop. Now, the Japanese make some of the best tyres around.

Back on topic, as the OP suggests, as a general rule more grip means less mileage. If you want the gripiest tyre ask around the people who have the same car as you what sort of mileage they get. The tyre that wears the worst should have the best grip.

But, as someone else said, pure grip is not the only thing that matters. How progressive is it when it loses grip? How does it turn in? What sort of feedback do you get through the steering? Mind you, I suppose that any feedback is lost in a power steered, FWD car.

corkgsxr

Joe 90 wrote: »

How the world has changed. Years ago when the Japs started to produce the occasional interesting car they tended to come on Bridgestones which were diabolical in those days. In fact Japanese tyres were diabolical in those days, full stop. Now, the Japanese make some of the best tyres around.

Back on topic, as the OP suggests, as a general rule more grip means less mileage. If you want the gripiest tyre ask around the people who have the same car as you what sort of mileage they get. The tyre that wears the worst should have the best grip.

But, as someone else said, pure grip is not the only thing that matters. How progressive is it when it loses grip? How does it turn in? What sort of feedback do you get through the steering? Mind you, I suppose that any feedback is lost in a power steered, FWD car.

its dont always work that way. like chinese **** have neither grip nor mileage

i had dunlop sp sports on the front of the mazda, got a bubble in the sidewall and had to go to shannon airport that day. only one i could get was a normal dunlop. they normal one wore out faster than the sp sports. i put it down to it moved about more so wore faster than the secure grip of the sp sports.

tire feckin black art to know what suits ya

Syllabus

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Syllabus just made that up.....

did I:eek::eek::eek::eek: thanks for putting me staight:rolleyes:

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

....The real reason replacement tyres don't grip/last/give mpg like Original Equipment is that people are too cheap to buy the top quality tyres that manufacturers generally fit.

this ^ is a given.:rolleyes: Of course fitting OE is the best choice

I have had customers tell me that they got 55k out of the OE Mich or Conti and app. 40k out of the EXACT SAME tyres 2nd time round.

wear and tear, including but not exclusive to wheel alignment and suspension bushes, on a car with 55k WILL have a negative affect on tyre wear. Its a fact. Not to mention the road surface, tyre pressures, engine mantainance etc. Irish people tend to turn the key and drive til something fails. Common sense upkeep is not high on their agenda which affects tyre wear.

I am speaking from experience.

if you disagree thats fine but you're wrong

Syllabus

glasshopper wrote: »

Not so!!
New Kia Cee'd had Michelins and I got about 58K on the front and the back pair are still good over 65K now. I replaced with the Bridgestone Turanza because I was told they were the best and as it stands they have max 10k before they are slicks.

P.S. driver has not put on weight or developed a heavy foot and with the price of fuel I'd say driving more conservatively. the new turanza (E300) are sh1te. My opinion based on experience and shared with you guys

this is the old model. the new one is the T001

corkgsxr

Added to that a lot of garages couldn't track a car to safe there life.

Joe 90

corkgsxr wrote: »

Added to that a lot of garages couldn't track a car to safe there life.

And there is a lot more than just track in suspension geometry.

Joe 90

corkgsxr wrote: »

its dont always work that way. like chinese **** have neither grip nor mileage

i had dunlop sp sports on the front of the mazda, got a bubble in the sidewall and had to go to shannon airport that day. only one i could get was a normal dunlop. they normal one wore out faster than the sp sports. i put it down to it moved about more so wore faster than the secure grip of the sp sports.

tire feckin black art to know what suits ya

There is in fact the view that a grippy tyre may wear better than a less grippy one simply because it grips rather than slides. But in general more grip means softer rubber means more wear.
All other things being equal of course.:)