Rear ended at N4(e) M50(s) merge

alias no.9

Had a bit of a scrape earlier, was coming east bound on the N4 in the right hand lane of the 2 that continue inbound on the N4, traffic was free moving, busy but not congested. Literally a few feet before the start of the kerb that divides the N4 inbound lanes from the M50 southbound lanes, the car in front of me comes to a full stop, puts on their right hand indicator, crosses the hatched markings into the M50 lane. I stopped in time but the car behind me wasn't so fortunate. The idiot that caused the whole incident stopped briefly after moving across, no doubt saw what happened in their mirror and moved off again. Anybody have any experience of this kind of incident? I really want the idiot who stopped in front of me done for dangerous driving, Gardai already informed, what are the chances of a prosecution being taken?

Drummerboy08

If you got the reg number of the car that stopped in the first instance, AGS may be able to do something.

CiniO

Earlier this year I had an incident, where on a blind corner I met some idiot overtaking, so I had to do emergency braking, and car behind me didn't manage to stop in time. Fortunately he didn't rear ended me, but managed to pass me on the left side on the grass, hitting the barrier by doing so.

I had it on a dashcam and I have to reg no of car overtaking, but I was told in this forum that there was completely no point in reporting it as AGS wouldn't do anything about it.

Stheno

Is it not the case here that the person who hit you is at fault?

Regardless of the other drivers bad driving, they failed to stop in time and hit you?

alias no.9

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

If you got the reg number of the car that stopped in the first instance, AGS may be able to do something.

I did and the Gardai have it, they just told me I have to sort out my dealings with the person behind me, who I have a lot of sympathy for in the circumstances, but I want some justice for the actions that caused the whole mess. I've volunteered to be a witness for any action taken but I just want to know that some action will be taken.

CiniO

Stheno wrote: »

Is it not the case here that the person who hit you is at fault?

Regardless of the other drivers bad driving, they failed to stop in time and hit you?

Undoubtly true.

But other driver should be fined for stopping for no reason in such place (provided there really was no reason).

RandomAccess

I would hope the insurance company that has to pay up would make an attempt at tracking down the person who instigated the pile up.
Perhaps its too much to ask, but there are some judges out there who apply common sense.

alias no.9

Stheno wrote: »

Is it not the case here that the person who hit you is at fault?

Regardless of the other drivers bad driving, they failed to stop in time and hit you?

Responsible for not stopping in time and the damage but the whole thing was precipitated dangerous driving and an illegal maneuver, i.e. Changing lanes across a hatched area after the broken white line had ended.

alias no.9

CiniO wrote: »

Undoubtly true.

But other driver should be fined for stopping for no reason in such place (provided there really was no reason).

They left it too late to get into the lane they needed and failed to use common sense and continue the short distance to the next junction and come back out to the M50.

Stheno

alias no.9 wrote: »

They left it too late to get into the lane they needed and failed to use common sense and continue the short distance to the next junction and come back out to the M50.

That entire junction is a horror full stop. Not helped by some of the seriously idiotic driving like the above.

bazz26

I could be wrong here but unless you have an independant witness I would imagine it would be your word against the other driver's.

RustyNut

I think that junction must have been designed by a transition year student on work experience.

Try getting from the slip from fonthill onto the M50 south slip in a fully freighted artic. Or what fcuking genius thaught it was a good idea to feed all traffic from the M50 north into the outside lane of the N4 Again try this in a 40 tonner with traffic quite happy to sit in your blind spot when you need to move 3 lanes to the left to get to the next exit. The worst junction I've encountered in the country, unless you know different.

OP I feel your pain but the gob****e who caused the colision was the guy behind who couldn't stop on time the other gob****e will live to do the same again and again.

alias no.9

bazz26 wrote: »

I could be wrong here but unless you have an independant witness I would imagine it would be your word against the other driver's.

I'm just a witness to their dangerous driving, I am not in any dispute with them for damages. The person behind me has the misfortune of being responsible for the damage.

alias no.9

RustyNut wrote: »

I think that junction must have been designed by a transition year student on work experience.

Try getting from the slip from fonthill onto the M50 south slip in a fully freighted artic. Or what fcuking genius thaught it was a good idea to feed all traffic from the M50 north into the outside lane of the N4 Again try this in a 40 tonner with traffic quite happy to sit in your blind spot when you need to move 3 lanes to the left to get to the next exit. The worst junction I've encountered in the country, unless you know different.

OP I feel your pain but the gob****e who caused the colision was the guy behind who couldn't stop on time the other gob****e will live to do the same again and again.

I agree on the junction layout, its appalling. I know the person behind is responsible for damage but for some sense of justice to prevail, the illegal maneuver of the car in front has to be followed up, hopefully in the form of some kind of careless driving or dangerous conviction, a fine and points, otherwise there's a tacit acceptance that this kind of thing is ok.

CiniO

alias no.9 wrote: »

I agree on the junction layout, its appalling. I know the person behind is responsible for damage but for some sense of justice to prevail, the illegal maneuver of the car in front has to be followed up, hopefully in the form of some kind of careless driving or dangerous conviction, a fine and points, otherwise there's a tacit acceptance that this kind of thing is ok.

I agree with you 100%. That person should be fined and receive some penalty points for such behaviour. But as you can see, it won't be easy.

Additionally I think that person behind you who hit you should also be fined and receive some points, as their driving was also rash. But for some notunderstandable reason for me, it's never happening in this country (person who caused accident doesn't get penalized).
So you can loose you license for doing 65 in 60 zone and being caught 6 times (12 points), but you might cause accidents every week for the whole year, and you still will be licensed to drive.

Big Nasty

Surely in this instance they could be found guilty of contributary negligence?

pred racer

CiniO wrote: »

I agree with you 100%. That person should be fined and receive some penalty points for such behaviour. But as you can see, it won't be easy.

Additionally I think that person behind you who hit you should also be fined and receive some points, as their driving was also rash. But for some notunderstandable reason for me, it's never happening in this country (person who caused accident doesn't get penalized).
So you can loose you license for doing 65 in 60 zone and being caught 6 times (12 points), but you might cause accidents every week for the whole year, and you still will be licensed to drive.

So you think it should an offence to have an accident? What, 2penalty points for each second you attention wanders
And tbh im getting a bit sick of you whinging about how things are in this country, you do know you're not a prisoner here.
And please go and re-read the thread of the near miss you mentioned before, you over reacted to the situation and made it worse.

On topic I agree with the op, responsible or not the guy who stopped in traffic needs to be dealt with by AGS, even if it didnt cause an accident that behaviour would be dangerous driving even in isolation.

CiniO

pred racer wrote: »

So you think it should an offence to have an accident? What, 2penalty points for each second you attention wanders

No. Not offence to have an accident, but offence to cause an accident.

And tbh im getting a bit sick of you whinging about how things are in this country, you do know you're not a prisoner here.

Maybe I am. How can you tell.

And please go and re-read the thread of the near miss you mentioned before, you over reacted to the situation and made it worse.

That's your opinion.

On topic I agree with the op, responsible or not the guy who stopped in traffic needs to be dealt with by AGS, even if it didnt cause an accident that behaviour would be dangerous driving even in isolation.

Me too.

RandomAccess

M50 is fairly well covered with CCTV. Would be a miracle not to have caught the accident on camera. Maybe not close enough for a reg number, but if they had passed the toll it should be possible to trace the journey back. I know some people moan about Big Brother watching us and all that, but in this case I don't see what the problem is. The M50 is possibly the most accident prone road in the country so its time to police it properly. The black helicopters and chemtrails can wait for another day

RustyNut

alias no.9 wrote: »

I agree on the junction layout, its appalling. I know the person behind is responsible for damage but for some sense of justice to prevail, the illegal maneuver of the car in front has to be followed up, hopefully in the form of some kind of careless driving or dangerous conviction, a fine and points, otherwise there's a tacit acceptance that this kind of thing is ok.

I agree 100%. The main problem with drivers here is this behaviour never gets picked up on. The tacit acceptance comes from the authorities who turn a blind eye to all sorts of bad/dangerous driving and human nature dictates that most people will do what they think they will get away with.
If every traffic light in the country had a camera put on it and everybody who broke a red light was fined €100 we could fund the health service with no problems. Not to mention junction boxes, roundabouts etc etc etc.

Mycroft H

That junction is fine apart from the Liffey Valley exit to M50 southbound. Once in heavy traffic I've had to do a U turn at palmerstown to get onto it.

Coming from the other way, On Friday, I had a rigid with a trailer force its way into my lane (3 for M50 s'bound) without even thinking of giving way causing me to step onto the anchors. Would he think about giving way to traffic already in the lane? Nope.

garclo

i'm sure there is cctv at that junction. there's a traffic program on dublin city fm called livedrive, they do live traffic reports at rush hour and have cameras at major junctions all over the city. they broadcast from dublin city council offices. might be worth a phone call to them to try getting brakey mc s**tdrivers reg number.

paddyland

BX 19 wrote: »

Coming from the other way, On Friday, I had a rigid with a trailer force its way into my lane (3 for M50 s'bound) without even thinking of giving way causing me to step onto the anchors. Would he think about giving way to traffic already in the lane? Nope.

There is no safe point for a heavy vehicle to move out to lane 3 for M50 southbound. If he does it too soon, he ends up bunching up traffic in the outside lane, resulting in everyone undertaking him and cutting in front of him.

If he waits to pull across later, he takes a chance on not meeting an idiot like you who won't let him join the M50 lane at all. Do you not realise it is a lot easier for you, in a small, light vehicle, to give way to the HGV than it is for the HGV to give way to you?

I don't like someone cutting in front of me when I am in the outside lane either. The difference between me and you is that if there is a HGV present, I try to be aware of the extra allowances they need, and give way to them.

By 'stepping onto the anchors,' you are admitting to being just as bad a driver as the driver in the OP who stepped on the anchors on the N4, and caused an accident. You didn't read the road, and allow for the hazards present.

A HGV cannot handle as quickly and deftly on the road as a car. He needs extra accommodation and courtesy. If you cannot make allowances for that, then you really aren't in a position to voice an opinion on anyone else.

paddyland

BX 19 wrote: »

Coming from the other way, On Friday, I had a rigid with a trailer force its way into my lane (3 for M50 s'bound) without even thinking of giving way causing me to step onto the anchors. Would he think about giving way to traffic already in the lane? Nope.

There is no safe point for a heavy vehicle to move out to lane 3 for M50 southbound. If he does it too soon, he ends up bunching up traffic in the outside lane, resulting in everyone undertaking him and cutting in front of him.

If he waits to pull across later, he takes a chance on not meeting an idiot who won't let him join the M50 lane at all. Do you not realise it is a lot easier for you, in a small, light vehicle, to give way to the HGV than it is for the HGV to give way to you?

I don't like someone cutting in front of me when I am in the outside lane either. The difference between me and you is that if there is a HGV present, I try to be aware of the extra allowances they need, and give way to them.

By 'stepping onto the anchors,' you are admitting to being just as bad a driver as the driver in the OP who stepped on the anchors on the N4, and caused an accident. You didn't read the road, and allow for the hazards present.

A HGV cannot handle as quickly and deftly on the road as a car. He needs extra accommodation and courtesy. If you cannot make allowances for that, then you really aren't in a position to voice an opinion on anyone else.

CiniO

paddyland wrote: »

There is no safe point for a heavy vehicle to move out to lane 3 for M50 southbound. If he does it too soon, he ends up bunching up traffic in the outside lane, resulting in everyone undertaking him and cutting in front of him.

If he waits to pull across later, he takes a chance on not meeting an idiot like you who won't let him join the M50 lane at all. Do you not realise it is a lot easier for you, in a small, light vehicle, to give way to the HGV than it is for the HGV to give way to you?

I don't like someone cutting in front of me when I am in the outside lane either. The difference between me and you is that if there is a HGV present, I try to be aware of the extra allowances they need, and give way to them.

By 'stepping onto the anchors,' you are admitting to being just as bad a driver as the driver in the OP who stepped on the anchors on the N4, and caused an accident. You didn't read the road, and allow for the hazards present.

A HGV cannot handle as quickly and deftly on the road as a car. He needs extra accommodation and courtesy. If you cannot make allowances for that, then you really aren't in a position to voice an opinion on anyone else.

Oh come on man.
HGVs can't be entitled to any special treatment just because they are big.
It harder to accelerate fast, and it's harder to change lanes, but it's not a reason to force right of way from someone who is not willing to give up this right.

Mycroft H

paddyland wrote: »

.

By 'stepping onto the anchors,' you are admitting to being just as bad a driver as the driver in the OP who stepped on the anchors on the N4, and caused an accident. You didn't read the road, and allow for the hazards present.

So what do I do when I see a rigid with trailer just try and merge into a gap the size of a small car? Get squashed between the barrier? It was either stand on the brake or get squashed. If the HGV driver can't check his blind spots to see if a car is there then he really shouldn't be driving. I can't predict where other drivers wan't to go when especially he looked like he was staying on the N4. Up off that high horse or yours now.

paddyland wrote: »

.
A HGV cannot handle as quickly and deftly on the road as a car. He needs extra accommodation and courtesy. If you cannot make allowances for that, then you really aren't in a position to voice an opinion on anyone else.

Bull****. The driver needs to make accommodation for his vehicle's acceleration, manoeuvrability and blind spots. Not other motorists. Fair enough, there is courtesy, and then, just plain bad driving.

OldmanMondeo

BX19, where you in the right hand lane? Truck coming from middle lane to right hand?

Mycroft H

Yep, lane three. Annoyed as I recently stopped using my phone as a dash cam as I lost the USB cable to charge it with. I really must buy a cable.

RustyNut

BX 19 wrote: »

So what do I do when I see a rigid with trailer just try and merge into a gap the size of a small car? Get squashed between the barrier? It was either stand on the brake or get squashed. If the HGV driver can't check his blind spots to see if a car is there then he really shouldn't be driving. I can't predict where other drivers wan't to go when especially he looked like he was staying on the N4. Up off that high horse or yours now.



Bull****. The driver needs to make accommodation for his vehicle's acceleration, manoeuvrability and blind spots. Not other motorists. Fair enough, there is courtesy, and then, just plain bad driving.

I don't know what happened in your case with the wagon and drag but I can tell you from experience that driving a truck coming from the Liffey valley slip and trying to get onto the M50 south if the road is anyway busy you must be "assertive".

Was the truck driver indicating that he wanted to change lane before he did?

Mycroft H

RustyNut wrote: »

I don't know what happened in your case with the wagon and drag but I can tell you from experience that driving a truck coming from the Liffey valley slip and trying to get onto the M50 south if the road is anyway busy you must be "assertive".

Was the truck driver indicating that he wanted to change lane before he did?

There is a difference between being assertive and dangerous. Indicators, or not, moving into a lane where there is traffic present is just dangerous. Especially with a trailer.

paddyland

CiniO wrote: »

Oh come on man.
HGVs can't be entitled to any special treatment just because they are big.
It harder to accelerate fast, and it's harder to change lanes, but it's not a reason to force right of way from someone who is not willing to give up this right.

BX 19 wrote: »

So what do I do when I see a rigid with trailer just try and merge into a gap the size of a small car? Get squashed between the barrier? It was either stand on the brake or get squashed. If the HGV driver can't check his blind spots to see if a car is there then he really shouldn't be driving. I can't predict where other drivers wan't to go when especially he looked like he was staying on the N4. Up off that high horse or yours now.

Bull****. The driver needs to make accommodation for his vehicle's acceleration, manoeuvrability and blind spots. Not other motorists. Fair enough, there is courtesy, and then, just plain bad driving.

A HGV is not simply another vehicle on the road, to be squeezed up like every one else. If you have sense, you will give them extra room. I see dozens and dozens of HGVs every day trying to change lanes like this, and in far too many cases, the cars will accelerate and close the gap, rather than allow them do so. Faced with this over and over again all day, the HGV will be very assertive on the road about what he needs to do. Otherwise he will simply be left there by other motorists who have no idea of the dynamics of the larger vehicle.

There is such a thing as the general flow of everything on the road. Think of it like a fast flowing river. You cannot simply drive to entirely suit yourself. You must make allowances for everything else on the road around you. If everyone would make allowances for everyone else, and particularly for the less manoeuvreable vehicles, the flow rate would be much smoother, and everyone could keep going. You do have an entitlement to your road space, but there are times when aggressively claiming it at the expense of everyone else regardless, actually adds to the congestion for everyone else behind you, and eventually, to yourself too.

Give and take, but give a bit more to the HGV.

RustyNut

BX 19 wrote: »

There is a difference between being assertive and dangerous. Indicators, or not, moving into a lane where there is traffic present is just dangerous. Especially with a trailer.

In my opinion any half decent driver who knows that road should be expecting a truck with their indicator on to change into that lane fairly sharpish due to the retarded design and make allowances for it,that is not to excuse dangerous lane changes.

Did you slow down to 60k's at the limit sign?

RustyNut

BX 19 wrote: »

So what do I do when I see a rigid with trailer just try and merge into a gap

Lift off the go pedal, give him/her a flash, let them out, pass when the slip turns into two lanes and get on with your life, or put your foot down, fill the gap,cause lots of stress and bitch about it on the internet the choice is yours.

Mycroft H

paddyland wrote: »

You do have an entitlement to your road space, but there are times when aggressively claiming it at the expense of everyone else regardless, actually adds to the congestion for everyone else behind you, and eventually, to yourself too.

Give and take, but give a bit more to the HGV.

Who said I was aggressively claiming it? Long story short. In heavy-ish 9am traffic. rigid lorry + trailer drove into space too small. I had to brake sharpish so I didn't get pinned between a long vehicle and a concrete barrier. Truck driver had checked his blind spots none of this would have happened. Get off your high horses lads, neither of you were there.

RustyNut

BX 19 wrote: »

Who said I was aggressively claiming it? Long story short. In heavy-ish 9am traffic. rigid lorry + trailer drove into space too small. I had to brake sharpish so I didn't get pinned between a long vehicle and a concrete barrier. Truck driver had checked his blind spots none of this would have happened. Get off your high horses lads, neither of you were there.

No blind spots on the right hand side. I said earlier I wasn't there but speak from experience.

The problem stems from the fcuked up design that forces HGV drivers into what a large amount of people perceive as the "fast" lane where they don't belong and if they miss the junction it's a long way before you can legaly get a turn.

Just because you have right of way doesn't mean you have to take right of way.

Mycroft H

RustyNut wrote: »

No blind spots on the right hand side. I said earlier I wasn't there but speak from experience.

That's even worse so. Basic mirror check then.