Derren Brown - Fear & Faith

pinksoir

I'm sure a good few peeps saw this, but just in case anyone missed it here's a link to part two on 4OD which has Derren giving an atheist a religious 'conversion'. I thought it was very interesting. Nothing new of course, but nice to see the oft argued ideas of why and how we believe in gods - concept of perfect father figure, awe at the universe, feeling of unconditional love, agency in nature, etc - being practically demonstrated. Quite a few interesting experiments in the programme too, especially the one about the haunted armchair! I think it's good that this type of thing is being exposed to a wider audience.

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/derren-brown-the-specials/4od#3439843

[-0-]

I can't stand Derren Brown. He's a con artist.

General Relativity

[-0-] wrote: »

I can't stand Derren Brown. He's a con artist.

He never pretends to be anything else tho. Any interviews I've seen with him he always states that he's an entertainer not a physic or anything else.

Zombrex

General Relativity wrote: »

He never pretends to be anything else tho. Any interviews I've seen with him he always states that he's an entertainer not a physic or anything else.

I think he is referring to his habit of claiming what he is doing is psychology and science when the accusation is that camera tricks, editing, paid actors etc are used to achieve the result.

[-0-]

Zombrex wrote: »

I think he is referring to his habit of claiming what he is doing is psychology and science when the accusation is that camera tricks, editing, paid actors etc are used to achieve the result.

Exactly.

recedite

The yellow chair was interesting alright
Converting the atheist looked fake though. Notice that she was presented as a "difficult case" someone who laughed in the crypt, a "scientist" who always knew the outcome of everything before it happened... until she met Derren. Yeah right. What's the point in her being a researcher if she already knows all the outcomes?
More likely she is just acting ; the persona is just a theists stereotype, the idea of a smartass atheist scientist.

Derren is entertaining, but also annoying because he is such a liar.

The Mad Hatter

“Magic is the only honest profession. A magician promises to deceive you and he does.”

-Karl Germain

fisgon

Interesting, in ways. And a very atheistic perspective. But I'm not sure I buy the conversion, it seemed very easy, and too profound to happen in 15 minutes.
And quite uncomfortable to watch, too.
With Derren Brown, there is obviously a lot of manipulation going on behind the scenes, and in the editing room. He did make some interesting points though, but hard to buy into it.

[-0-]

[-0-] wrote: »

Exactly.

Have you anything to back up the claim that he's a fraud or a liar? (I'm sorry if that sounds accusatory: it's not meant to.) I've always been fascinated with Derren, and I've always admired his television shows and specials, as well as his live performances, so I would be extremely interested in any evidence that suggests he uses actors or stooges, film editing, or camera tricks, because I was always under the impression that he was "genuine" — well, as genuine as any magician, or whatever you'd like to call him, could be! I thought his two Fear and Faith shows were okay — nothing special, though his techniques for inducing the so-called religious experience are fascinating, if they're genuine.

franbe

Zombrex wrote: »

I think he is referring to his habit of claiming what he is doing is psychology and science when the accusation is that camera tricks, editing, paid actors etc are used to achieve the result.

its all in the wiki :-


Brown states at the beginning of his Trick of the Mind programmes that he achieves his results using a combination of "magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship".


In a Daily Telegraph article published in 2003 Simon Singh criticised Brown's early TV appearances, arguing that he presented standard magic and mentalism effects—such as the classic Ten Card Poker Deal trick—as genuine psychological manipulation.[40] On Brown's television and live shows he often appears to show the audience how a particular effect was created—claiming to use techniques such as subliminal suggestion, hypnosis, and body language reading. Singh's suggestion is that these explanations are dishonest. Furthermore, Singh took exception to the programme's website being categorised under Channel 4's "Science" section. The mini-site was moved to Entertainment for later series.

In an October 2010 interview, Brown conceded that Singh may have had a point, explaining that at the start of his television career "I was overstating the case, overstating my skills. I thought there'll only be one show, there'll never be a repeat, so I might as well go for it."[41] In his book Tricks of the Mind, Brown writes,

"I am often dishonest in my techniques, but always honest about my dishonesty. As I say in each show, 'I mix magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship'. I happily admit cheating, as it's all part of the game. I hope some of the fun for the viewer comes from not knowing what's real and what isn't. I am an entertainer first and foremost, and I am careful not to cross any moral line that would take me into manipulating people's real-life decisions or belief systems."

Brown claims to never use actors or "stooges" in his work without informing the viewers. In Tricks of the Mind, Brown writes that to use such a ploy is "artistically repugnant and simply unnecessary"; furthermore, he "would not want any participant to watch the TV show when it airs and see a different or radically re-edited version of what he understood to have happened".

Zombrex

franbe wrote: »

Brown states at the beginning of his Trick of the Mind programmes that he achieves his results using a combination of "magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship".

He seems to use camera tricks and suggestive editing as well, which I consider quite dishonest* for a TV program where the viewer has no control over how they view the trick.


*no more dishonest than all those reality shows that do the same thing, but then have had to start putting disclaimers at the start of the shows now saying some scenes staged for effect.

Standman

gvn wrote: »

Have you anything to back up the claim that he's a fraud or a liar? (I'm sorry if that sounds accusatory: it's not meant to.) I've always been fascinated with Derren, and I've always admired his television shows and specials, as well as his live performances, so I would be extremely interested in any evidence that suggests he uses actors or stooges, film editing, or camera tricks, because I was always under the impression that he was "genuine" — well, as genuine as any magician, or whatever you'd like to call him, could be! I thought his two Fear and Faith shows were okay — nothing special, though his techniques for inducing the so-called religious experience are fascinating, if they're genuine.

Here's an breakdown of how he achieved his "lottery prediction".

If you watch the other 4 videos of this series on youtube you can see Penn and Teller and other skeptics give their opinions on Derren.

The Mad Hatter

Zombrex wrote: »

He seems to use camera tricks and suggestive editing as well, which I consider quite dishonest* for a TV program where the viewer has no control over how they view the trick.

Magicians always control how you view the trick. That's their job.

Zombrex

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

Magicians always control how you view the trick. That's their job.

There is a difference between the skill involved in controlling an audience in a live situation and simply manipulating a recording. Photoshop isn't a magic trick :P

The Mad Hatter

Zombrex wrote: »

There is a difference between the skill involved in controlling an audience in a live situation and simply manipulating a recording. Photoshop isn't a magic trick :P

Well, yes and no. Part of the reason that the trick has to be hidden off-camera is that people could simply rewind a tape and watch it a few times to pick up his tricks. I've even done this - during his session with Stephen Fry, he pulls off a beautiful switch where he substitutes a lit cigarette for a lit playing card. The switch happens quickly enough for Fry not to catch it, and quick enough for a casually viewing audience, but if it's the second or third time you've seen it…

Incidentally, I've seen Derren Brown live twice, and he's a superb stage performer.

Although, yes, I did feel ripped off by the Lottery thing.

TPD

The lottery thing was the biggest annoyance for me. His explanation of how he supposedly achieved it was even worse.

franbe

franbe wrote: »

its all in the wiki :-

Brown states at the beginning of his Trick of the Mind programmes that he achieves his results using a combination of "magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship".

ill put it another way, he

suggests he uses psychology which is a form of misdirection

lol

he does seem concerned that for some viewers he may be fueling belief in nonsense, hence the slight change in career path. adding a debunking tone, or packaging the whole thing up as some human potential intervention. but ultimately he is a showman trying to turn a buck.

its a murky ethical area, his job is to fool people.

these vids are good
richard dalkins interviews darren brown