Borrowing Money to Provide Foreign Aid

Ray Dow

I know this may be a touchy subject but can anyone explain why our bankrupt country is still giving foreign aid when we clearly can't afford it?

Are we required to provide aid by Brussels? And does anyone know the countries that we have to give aid to?

Finally, for example in the case of Uganda, does anyone know how much the the taxpayer will have to repay for the loan we had to take out to donate the €4 million in aid in the first place?

I would like to make it clear that in no way am I against giving foreign aid to countries less fortunate than ourselves (which there are plenty even in our current situation) but I am interested to find out the whole dynamics behind the programme.

Icepick

It's roughly 0.5% of our expenditure. I don't mind 0.5% of my taxes going to foreign aid.

flutered

what about the dosh that we had to borrow for the first greek bailout.

thebman

Because we agreed to give aid.

It is to save face that we continue to do so I imagine as it looks bad if you say we aren't giving aid to people that have nothing because we are having trouble paying for our iPhones.

First world money problems versus third world money problems = very different types of problems.

Manach

Whilst I agree with a focused aid giving, the reasons behind it have to be more than a general face saving appearance and frankly the Noblesse oblige response of denigrating our own Irish problems as something we should not in some way be complaining of is to me part of the smug and secure leftist class mindset of champagne socialism.

hognef

Ray Dow wrote: »

Finally, for example in the case of Uganda, does anyone know how much the the taxpayer will have to repay for the loan we had to take out to donate the €4 million in aid in the first place?

With a population of roughly 4 million, that would be roughly €1 plus interest per head of population, maybe €2 in total? Granted, not everybody is a tax payer, but surely no more than €4 per tax payer, spread over a number of years.

Scortho

I'm against the borrowing of money to fund foreign aid, when we have so many problems of our own in this country.

Walk along any of the main streets in Dublin or the other major cities and what do you see? People sleeping in doorways because they can't get into emergency accommodation. How much emergency accommodation would this provide for these people?

Go into A&E and you'll see people people on trollies. How many extra beds, wards etc would this provide? How many extra nurses could be employed to treat these patients?

Surely its our duty to sort out the problems of our own country first?

touts

Given that 4million of it disappeared into a bank account the Ugandan Prime Minister "knew nothing about" and this was not discovered by anyone on our side until some one in Uganda, presumably not a supporter of their PM, revealed what was going on you have to wonder just how much cash do Irish Aid have lying around that they didnt miss 4 million.

Cookie_Monster

time and time again the countries we give aid to manage to buy tanks or planes or ships, why are we directly or indirectly funding this type of expenditure? Any country buying weapons should automatically be refused foreign aid until such equipment is sold and funds used for anti poverty / education / food funding

BOHtox

Real charity doesn't involve forcibly taking money from the poor in this country, and then giving it to the rich in poor countries!

thebman

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

time and time again the countries we give aid to manage to buy tanks or planes or ships, why are we directly or indirectly funding this type of expenditure? Any country buying weapons should automatically be refused foreign aid until such equipment is sold and funds used for anti poverty / education / food funding

Sometimes the tanks are required if they still want to have a country we can give foreign aid to tomorrow I imagine.

the groutch

Icepick wrote: »

It's roughly 0.5% of our expenditure. I don't mind 0.5% of my taxes going to foreign aid.

but a large number of the population do mind.
imo they should eliminate all foreign aid, and then create a central "foreign aid fund", so people can choose themselves if they want to contribute.

Idbatterim

there is virtually no point in even debating this subject, the government will never cut it, its probably more sacred than the OAP!

Icepick

the groutch wrote: »

but a large number of the population do mind.

source?

BOHtox wrote: »

Real charity doesn't involve forcibly taking money from the poor in this country, and then giving it to the rich in poor countries!

What poor people would those be? Entire families living comfortably of welfare for generations in Ireland?
There is a difference between sponsoring someone's basic education and drinking water and between buying someone's foreign holiday and sky sports subscription.

Scortho

Icepick wrote: »

source?

What poor people would those be? Entire families living comfortably of welfare for generations in Ireland?
There is a difference between sponsoring someone's basic education and drinking water and between buying someone's foreign holiday and sky sports subscription.

Theres a difference between sponsoring someones basic education and drinking water when its coming out of tax revenue and doing it when we're borrowing the money to look good abroad!

BOHtox

Icepick wrote: »

source?

What poor people would those be? Entire families living comfortably of welfare for generations in Ireland?
There is a difference between sponsoring someone's basic education and drinking water and between buying someone's foreign holiday and sky sports subscription.

This is a picture, by Ronan Lyons, as to who pays what in taxation. Now as a % of income, and due to regressive taxes, it leaves the poorest 10% of society pay more tax in percentage terms than the next the next 5 10% segments. There are already a large number of critics of foreign aid and to its effectiveness.

astrofool

It's the cost of being a western democracy. If we want to cut it, we may as well stop taking the large sums of money that Europe is bailing us out with.

BOHtox

astrofool wrote: »

It's the cost of being a western democracy. If we want to cut it, we may as well stop taking the large sums of money that Europe is bailing us out with.

Suits me.
Neither a borrower nor a lender be.

kodoherty93

Most africian economist believe western aid is why African dictators are still in power. As they dont have to make the right decision as if there is famine the Western world supplies it with aid.

Where as if there is poor leadership in Asia like Burma the people take over as there is no rich 1st world country to take over.

Plus with Africa getting richer does it really need the aid Ireland continues to give

maninasia

astrofool wrote: »

It's the cost of being a western democracy. If we want to cut it, we may as well stop taking the large sums of money that Europe is bailing us out with.

The two have nothing to do with each other. It's madness to borrow money to give it as a charitable benefit for others use. It is simply not logical OR sustainable.
Also, as others have mentioned, Africa has huge resources available to it and is starting to get a lot of investment. This type of foreign aid from governments is usually siphoned off. It should be up to the individual where their charity goes and how it is spent.

Cavehill Red

astrofool wrote: »

It's the cost of being a western democracy. If we want to cut it, we may as well stop taking the large sums of money that Europe is bailing us out with.

Europe's not 'bailing us out'. Europe is bailing out their own banks who are owed vast amounts of money they lent to some Irish banks, which Brian Lenihan then nationalised against the will of the Irish people.
In reality, Irish taxpayers are bailing Europe out.

touts

astrofool wrote: »

It's the cost of being a western democracy. If we want to cut it, we may as well stop taking the large sums of money that Europe is bailing us out with.

And what do you think the Troika would say to us if we said thanks for the money now we can spend ours on some new attack helicopters and a few tanks....

Head The Wall

Well seeing as the greeks are still spending money on military equipment, probably nothing

Icepick

kodoherty93 wrote: »

Most africian economist believe western aid is why African dictators are still in power.

source?

Icepick

BOHtox wrote: »

This is a picture, by Ronan Lyons, as to who pays what in taxation. Now as a % of income, and due to regressive taxes, it leaves the poorest 10% of society pay more tax in percentage terms than the next the next 5 10% segments.

Yes, but the poorest 10% of society get much more in benefits than they earn so ultimately, most of what they pay in tax they got from other people's taxes in the first place.
Ideally, they would get less in welfare but also pay less in taxes to save on bureaucracy. Unfair taxes such as the TV licence should be scrapped altogether, for example.

maninasia

The poorest section don't pay direct income taxes so this must be VAT on goods purchased?

Many live on rent supplement, public housing and social welfare or education grants. The income they earn is usually from the state, it's just recycled tax money isn't it?

srsly78

maninasia wrote: »

The poorest section don't pay direct income taxes so this must be VAT on goods purchased?

Many live on rent supplement, public housing and social welfare or education grants. The income they earn is usually from the state, it's just recycled tax money isn't it?

Yes welfare is counted as income, and all kinds of tax are considered.

maninasia

Well as far I'm aware not a whole lot of tax is applied as that would defeat the purpose.

golden lane

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Europe's not 'bailing us out'. Europe is bailing out their own banks who are owed vast amounts of money they lent to some Irish banks, which Brian Lenihan then nationalised against the will of the Irish people.
In reality, Irish taxpayers are bailing Europe out.

here in the uk we are very pleased to pay for ireland to bail us out......what would we do without you........lol

srsly78

maninasia wrote: »

Well as far I'm aware not a whole lot of tax is applied as that would defeat the purpose.

You aren't aware of vat?

Ellis Dee

Icepick wrote: »

It's roughly 0.5% of our expenditure. I don't mind 0.5% of my taxes going to foreign aid.

Nor do I. In fact, the UN has asked its wealthier members (of which we are one) to bring its foreign aid up to 0.7% of GDP and we have undertaken to do so - eventually. Nevertheless, even in the Celtic Tiger years, when Ireland's almost yobbish vulgar displays of ostentatious and wasteful spending were rather disgusting (and saddening) to behold, we never achieved that level.:rolleyes:

Even if we have to borrow to be able to honour a pledge we have made as a sovereign state, we should do so. Or else we should never have given the undertaking in the first place.

Besides, what goes round comes round and we might one day need real help from the rest of the world.:)

Wibbs

Ellis Dee wrote: »

Nor do I. In fact, the UN has asked its wealthier members (of which we are one) to bring its foreign aid up to 0.7% of GDP and we have undertaken to do so - eventually. Nevertheless, even in the Celtic Tiger years, when Ireland's almost yobbish vulgar displays of ostentatious and wasteful spending were rather disgusting (and saddening) to behold, we never achieved that level.:rolleyes:

Maybe do some more research? Forget what we donate on a personal level(more below) as I pointed out in another thread on the subject; Check out this. A list of EU nations and their status as far as reaching their overseas aid targets. We're one of the few who are on track or have met our commitments. Other pages on that site show we've met our targets. We're also the poorest of those who have or are on track. Now look at those who haven't. None of the other so called "PIIGS" states have and very few of the "rich" EU nations have. France and Germany haven't for a start. Kudos to us and all that, but given our current financial position kudos won't pay our bills.

Even if we have to borrow to be able to honour a pledge we have made as a sovereign state, we should do so. Or else we should never have given the undertaking in the first place.

Lovely, however when we're borrowing to send aid at a rate of 600 million a year, to countries like Uganda who can afford to spend over that figure on just one military purchase and want to purchase the same again it's beyond madness. Look at the hoopla surrounding the new national childrens hospital for this country. It's going to take a few years to build and lots of cash. What Uganda has already spent on their one purchase would cover it's estimated costs with a big chunk of change left over, as would our yearly spend on sending official aid overseas.

BTW we're already by far the biggest givers in non official charity/aid in Europe, yet per capita Germany sends less than us officially. Plus on top of our government aid packages the Irish as a people give more per capita to charity/aid than any other nation in Europe and are second only to the Americans worldwide. We have zero reaons to have any guilt on that score(and it doesn't include the many many thousands of Irish charity workers that have worked and continue to work in developing countries). So you reckon it's prudent to be giving out over half a billion a year of borrowed money even though we're in dire financial straits?

Scofflaw

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Europe's not 'bailing us out'. Europe is bailing out their own banks who are owed vast amounts of money they lent to some Irish banks, which Brian Lenihan then nationalised against the will of the Irish people.
In reality, Irish taxpayers are bailing Europe out.

Do you - unlike everyone else who claims this - have evidence for this? Last time I asked I seem to recall you didn't.

cordially,
Scofflaw

SafeSurfer

Icepick wrote: »

It's roughly 0.5% of our expenditure. I don't mind 0.5% of my taxes going to foreign aid.

1. Yes but 0.5% of our expenditure on aid does not equal 0.5% of our tax take because our expenditure is more than our tax take.

2. Ireland never benefited from exploiting overseas colonies like practically every major European country. They have a responsibility to provide aid as a form of reparations for past exploitation.

3. Much of the aid provided by countries is politicised. Eg. we give you aid, you buy our tanks, give our oil companies preferential treatment etc.

4. I would be in favour of the voluntary funding of our foreign aid budget through the taxation system. You can tick a box to donate 0.5% of your taxable income to foreign aid if you wish or opt not to if you wish.