Why so many "private" dealers?

goz83

So my Sister and her hubby want a Hyundai Santa Fe. They're dead set on one, so no point in suggesting other makes/models. They want a 00-03 model in Dublin with NCT. Brother in law phones me to ask me to take a look at one this evening. I'm no mechanic, but lets just say that after him buying half a dozen overpriced sh1t boxes, he has put a bit of faith in me.

He sees one he likes for €1100 asking. I did a quick search and found 5 that fit the price range (up to €1200) and 4 out of 5 I asked "about the motor for sale on DoneDeal", and the response was "which one?". Is this just one of those unusual coincidental patches, or are most cars on DD being sold by private dealers?

We went to see one this evening that my sister had rung about before I was asked to tag along. The guy was a dealer and claimed it belonged to his sister in law. I had a quick look anyway. Tyres were bald on the outside p/side. Plenty of BIG scuffs and a large ding on quarter panel. Oil leak. Engine sounded tired when started. Claimed T/belt was just done, but no way I believe that. Lifted steering wheel cover and the wear and tear was clearly telling me that this puppy was clocked. It was really frustrating and I could tell the bro in law was terribly disappointed, but I had to tell him to stay well away. Advertised for €1350. €1200 max price was agreed on phone pending inspection. Total chancers out there, but how the hell did it just pass an NCT in September?

Stheno

goz83 wrote: »

So my Sister and her hubby want a Hyundai Santa Fe. They're dead set on one, so no point in suggesting other makes/models. They want a 00-03 model in Dublin with NCT. Brother in law phones me to ask me to take a look at one this evening. I'm no mechanic, but lets just say that after him buying half a dozen overpriced sh1t boxes, he has put a bit of faith in me.

He sees one he likes for €1100 asking. I did a quick search and found 5 that fit the price range (up to €1200) and 4 out of 5 I asked "about the motor for sale on DoneDeal", and the response was "which one?". Is this just one of those unusual coincidental patches, or are most cars on DD being sold by private dealers?

We went to see one this evening that my sister had rung about before I was asked to tag along. The guy was a dealer and claimed it belonged to his sister in law. I had a quick look anyway. Tyres were bald on the outside p/side. Plenty of BIG scuffs and a large ding on quarter panel. Oil leak. Engine sounded tired when started. Claimed T/belt was just done, but no way I believe that. Lifted steering wheel cover and the wear and tear was clearly telling me that this puppy was clocked. It was really frustrating and I could tell the bro in law was terribly disappointed, but I had to tell him to stay well away. Advertised for €1350. €1200 max price was agreed on phone pending inspection. Total chancers out there, but how the hell did it just pass an NCT in September?

How many regular garages can you find a 00 - 03 in? Feck all I'd imagine, there is a gap in the market for those willing to buy in a stock of cars, get them through the test, and sell them on.

Personally I've bought twice from private dealers and had no problems at all.

However in the circumstances you've described I'd just walk away, plenty more out there. The less scrupulous dealers thrive as people don't take responsibility for their purchases and don't do basic checks. Last time I bought from a dealer was about 3 years ago, car had a few small faults, sale was conditional on those being fixed, a check on outstanding finance etc, and it went fine.

I think sometimes people are afraid to question and go along rather than standing their ground.

bazz26

Unfortunately in this price range you are going to get alot of that. Your at the bottom end of the market where the person selling the car can be as colourful as the car itself irrespective of whether they work out of a supermarket carpark or a forecourt.

goz83

I expected one, or two, but 5 out of 6 in total. That's just mental.

Stheno

goz83 wrote: »

I expected one, or two, but 5 out of 6 in total. That's just mental.

Last time I was in that budget, I went through 10 cars before finding one I found acceptable.

The previous time my budget was up to 3k and I went through about 20 cars before I found one I was happy with.

That's a lot of time and effort to root out a bangernomics car!

Big Nasty

What do y'all mean private dealers? There's no such thing!

There's private (individual) sellers and there are motor dealers posing as private sellers to avoid giving warranty on a sh1tbox.

PauloMN

MCMLXXV wrote: »

What do y'all mean private dealers? There's no such thing!

There's private (individual) sellers and there are motor dealers posing as private sellers to avoid giving warranty on a sh1tbox.

Avoiding tax is probably the bigger incentive. I personally wouldn't deal with a "private dealer", if someone can't be arsed setting up their business properly, then I wouldn't trust them to sell me a decent car.

MugMugs

PauloMN wrote: »

Avoiding tax is probably the bigger incentive. I personally wouldn't deal with a "private dealer", if someone can't be arsed setting up their business properly, then I wouldn't trust them to sell me a decent car.

Terrible logic. Just because somebody's out to make a quick buck doesn't mean that the car is in bad nick. There's "reputable" dealers who will happily sell you a dog from their shiney new showroom and charge you for the privilege!

djimi

To be honest, if someone is setting themselves up as a "private dealer" to avoid paying tax, avoid having to give the seller the protection they would get from a dealer etc then they dont deserve my money. I have no problem with someone trying to make a quick buck, but not when it comes at my expense.

PauloMN

MugMugs wrote: »

Terrible logic. Just because somebody's out to make a quick buck doesn't mean that the car is in bad nick. There's "reputable" dealers who will happily sell you a dog from their shiney new showroom and charge you for the privilege!

It's not terrible logic. People who are scam artists are usually scam artists across the board. You might get a good car, but you've a much higher chance of buying a dog.

At least if you buy a dog from a proper dealer, you have some comeback. Try returning a car to a scam artist and see how it goes. It's about minimising risk.

MidlandsM

djimi wrote: »

To be honest, if someone is setting themselves up as a "private dealer" to avoid paying tax, avoid having to give the seller the protection they would get from a dealer etc then they dont deserve my money. I have no problem with someone trying to make a quick buck, but not when it comes at my expense.

but you see, you are never going to get a warranty (or protection as you call it) on a low value car - from anyone......dealer/private seller.......

......it's never going to happen.......

and I note these comments all the time "its a buyers markets" ...total BS, its a sellers market if you have a good car (unlike all the scrap out there), and you can name your price and wait (not long) for a buyer......

djimi

MidlandsM wrote: »

but you see, you are never going to get a warranty (or protection as you call it) on a low value car - from anyone......dealer/private seller.......

Its my understanding that you have some statutory protection when buying from a dealer (regardless of the value of the car), whereas when buying from a private seller you have virtually no legal protection? In other words a dealer cannot sell you a car and wash their hands of it the minute it is off the forecourt. If Im wrong about this Im happy to be corrected.

Big Nasty

MidlandsM wrote: »

but you see, you are never going to get a warranty (or protection as you call it) on a low value car - from anyone......dealer/private seller.......

......it's never going to happen.......

and I note these comments all the time "its a buyers markets" ...total BS, its a sellers market if you have a good car (unlike all the scrap out there), and you can name your price and wait (not long) for a buyer......

Fair enough but the point is dealers are using Done Deal to pose as private sellers in order to offload their scrap low value stock sans warranty.

veetwin

Lads a bit of perpsective here. You are talking about a 10-12 year old Korean car costing in the region of €1000. How much of a warranty do you think you going to get? The reason there are so many private dealers at this end of the market is that garages don't want these cars. If they offer a warranty on a €1000 car and something major goes wrong a few weeks later they are in trouble. The private seller doesn't have this problem. This doesn't mean that the private seller is a scam artist as suggested.

PauloMN

veetwin wrote: »

Lads a bit of perpsective here. You are talking about a 10-12 year old Korean car costing in the region of €1000. How much of a warranty do you think you going to get? The reason there are so many private dealers at this end of the market is that garages don't want these cars. If they offer a warranty on a €1000 car and something major goes wrong a few weeks later they are in trouble. The private seller doesn't have this problem. This doesn't mean that the private seller is a scam artist as suggested.

They are if they are not registered for tax as a dealer, and if they are selling cars as a business. Plain and simple, scam artists. People need to understand this, as we are all paying for the lost revenue out of our taxes. If you want to support someone who is essentially taking money out of your pocket, go right ahead.

Big Nasty

veetwin wrote: »

Lads a bit of perpsective here. You are talking about a 10-12 year old Korean car costing in the region of €1000. How much of a warranty do you think you going to get? The reason there are so many private dealers at this end of the market is that garages don't want these cars. If they offer a warranty on a €1000 car and something major goes wrong a few weeks later they are in trouble. The private seller doesn't have this problem. This doesn't mean that the private seller is a scam artist as suggested.

That's not the point - it's deceit and no matter what the value of the product.

That said I can understand the logic of it and if I was a dealer I would probably do it myself.

mullingar

+1,

I have to agree. The ONLY way a dealer is going to get rid of a €1000 yoke is to flog it off as a private sale. It could be perfect but the dealer is not going to chance any sort of warranty if its sold with a dealer receipt.

Under the Sale of Goods Act, the dealer must give a reasonable warranty, so for a 12 year car it would be reasonable to assume 4-6 weeks. A lot could go wrong in that time and cost the dealer a lot more than the car is worth.


Anyway, if you have a suspicion that the NCT may be fake, type the reg in here: http://www.carsireland.ie/add.php and if no date pops up in the NCT due date box when there is an NCT cert on the car, ask questions!!!

veetwin

PauloMN wrote: »

They are if they are not registered for tax as a dealer, and if they are selling cars as a business. Plain and simple, scam artists. People need to understand this, as we are all paying for the lost revenue out of our taxes. If you want to support someone who is essentially taking money out of your pocket, go right ahead.

Do check that someone is completely tax compliant everytime you want to buy something off them? Never paid cash for a job or service? Seriously?

PauloMN

veetwin wrote: »

Do check that someone is completely tax compliant everytime you want to buy something off them? Never paid cash for a job or service? Seriously?

When buying a car, I won't deal with a driveway dealer.

Yep I've paid cash for jobs a few times, I can't check whether people pay their own income tax, that's up to them, but I can at least check whether someone selling a car is a genuine private seller or not.

djimi

mullingar wrote: »

I have to agree. The ONLY way a dealer is going to get rid of a €1000 yoke is to flog it off as a private sale. It could be perfect but the dealer is not going to chance any sort of warranty if its sold with a dealer receipt.

Under the Sale of Goods Act, the dealer must give a reasonable warranty, so for a 12 year car it would be reasonable to assume 4-6 weeks. A lot could go wrong in that time and cost the dealer a lot more than the car is worth.

The point is that a dealer cannot legally sell a car as a private sale. If they sell a car, any car, to a member of the public then the buyer is covered legally (as is my understanding anyway; again Im am happy to be proven wrong). These guys who run car dealers from their gardens are trying to deny the buyer of their legal rights by posing as a private seller.

If they dont want to stand over the car then dont sell it. If you want to get into selling cheap second hand cars then accept the responsibilities that comes with being a car dealer.

milltown

goz83 wrote: »

Total chancers out there, but how the hell did it just pass an NCT in September?

It may or may not surprise you to learn that the guys featured in the Prime Time exposé of NCT fraud are still working in the same centres. Apparently the system has been tightened up but it wouldn't take a huge leap of faith to imagine that the same or different scams are still in operation. Indeed, if I was one of them and I knew I was guilty and would lose my job when the investigation or court proceedings were complete, I'd probably be going all out to feather my nest in the meantime.

WRT to dealers selling cars privately being a scam, I don't see a huge problem with it. Unless the cars are priced to compete with genuine private sellers, nobody is going to buy them. A private seller is just as likely to sell you a lemon. A lot of them don't have a clue that there is anything wrong with their cars anyway. It's accepted that you pay a premium when buying from a dealer to cover warranty et al. So long as that premium is removed, just buy on price and condition and caveat emptor.

mullingar

djimi wrote: »

The point is that a dealer cannot legally sell a car as a private sale. If they sell a car, any car, to a member of the public then the buyer is covered legally (as is my understanding anyway; again Im am happy to be proven wrong). These guys who run car dealers from their gardens are trying to deny the buyer of their legal rights by posing as a private seller.

If they dont want to stand over the car then dont sell it. If you want to get into selling cheap second hand cars then accept the responsibilities that comes with being a car dealer.

True, a dealer cannot legally sell a car as a private sale if its not registered to them and unfortunately there is a huge amount of "drive way" dealers out there. Yes, this deceit is their way to get around the law of the land.

The bottom line is that the practice does happen everywhere.

Next time you ring a seller ask:
1. "Im enquiring about the car you have on done deal", if the ask "which one", it is 90% a driveway dealer.
2. "More than one car?...... is the car in your name?" if they give the speil that is a friend or family members, be careful, odds are 95% driveway dealer (5% chance could still be genuine).

Once you know the type of seller, you can decide if you want to inspect it.

Dont assume that all driveway dealers are selling sh1te boxes, there genuinely are a few gems out there (but not a lot), Dont forget that driveway dealers are out to make €€€€. They bought it cheap and some would have bodged a few repairs to maximise the profit so ALWAYS get the car checked by a mechanic as there are too many driveway dealer cowboys out there.

A genuine private seller will show you the VLC and their drivers licence (if you ask nicely) to show that they own the car (and probably not stolen) so you know its a 100% private sale.

dgt

MidlandsM wrote: »

but you see, you are never going to get a warranty (or protection as you call it) on a low value car - from anyone......dealer/private seller.......

......it's never going to happen.......

This I can relate to

Last car we got from a dealer cost 1700. Sold "as seen with no warranty or comeback" car was 7 years old at the time.

Strangely, he offered it with an NCT for an extra 200.... :rolleyes:

bazz26

djimi wrote: »

The point is that a dealer cannot legally sell a car as a private sale. If they sell a car, any car, to a member of the public then the buyer is covered legally (as is my understanding anyway; again Im am happy to be proven wrong). These guys who run car dealers from their gardens are trying to deny the buyer of their legal rights by posing as a private seller.

If they dont want to stand over the car then dont sell it. If you want to get into selling cheap second hand cars then accept the responsibilities that comes with being a car dealer.

But what if the dealer is not actually selling it through his business and is selling it as a private individual, same as you or me and tells the buyer this? Surely the law becomes a grey area then or are registered dealers not allowed sell cars as private individuals?

Big Nasty

bazz26 wrote: »

But what if the dealer is not actually selling it through his business and is selling it as a private individual, same as you or me and tells the buyer this? Surely the law becomes a grey area then or are registered dealers not allowed sell cars as private individuals?

Sure he could do that for every car and never pay tax then.

djimi

bazz26 wrote: »

But what if the dealer is not actually selling it through his business and is selling it as a private individual, same as you or me and tells the buyer this? Surely the law becomes a grey area then or are registered dealers not allowed sell cars as private individuals?

Every car he sold would have to be in his name for this to work. Plus Im almost certain that there is a limit on how many cars an individual is allowed to sell in a year before they are considered to be a dealer (perhaps someone can elaborate/contradict that).

bazz26

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Sure he could do that for every car and never pay tax then.

djimi wrote: »

Every car he sold would have to be in his name for this to work. Plus Im almost certain that there is a limit on how many cars an individual is allowed to sell in a year before they are considered to be a dealer (perhaps someone can elaborate/contradict that).

Or sell a few below the radar not to alert Revenue. It also assums that the registration transfered into his name, I bet it isn't and he has the old log book. We don't even now if the guy was a registered dealer or somebody selling them on the side. There are ways of exploiting this and it's done every day not just in selling cars either.

professore

I always buy off individuals selling their own car. They know the full history of it (or should do) and can point out things that have been done or little quirks that the "dealer" wouldn't know.

PauloMN

djimi wrote: »

Every car he sold would have to be in his name for this to work. Plus Im almost certain that there is a limit on how many cars an individual is allowed to sell in a year before they are considered to be a dealer (perhaps someone can elaborate/contradict that).

There is a limit, can't remember either, it wasn't many, maybe 4 per year or something.

goz83

MCMLXXV wrote: »

What do y'all mean private dealers? There's no such thing!

There's private (individual) sellers and there are motor dealers posing as private sellers to avoid giving warranty on a sh1tbox.

I thought it would have been self explanatory. By private dealers, I am referring to people who buy cars to sell on at a profit and who usually have 2, or more for sale at a time. It could be a dealer registered, who is pretending to be a private individual, or it could be a private individual selling a multiple of cars. They are the people, who when asked about "the car" they are selling will answer "which one". I for one have never had 2 cars for sale at the one time.

Good news is I found a nice 03 Santa Fe for my sister. Was advertised for €1750 and sold for €1550. It was most definitely a private sale. NCT until July 2013. Very well kept and very clean. We also found another very nice one and it was from a Dealer at a small Garage in Coolock. Another 03 Santa Fe. Was letting go for €1600, but engine management light came on and an issue would have needing looking at first.

All of the Private Dealer cars we saw, were absolute dog boxes. I know the price bracket doesn't help, but at least she is happy with her purchase.

PauloMN

goz83 wrote: »

Good news is I found a nice 03 Santa Fe for my sister. Was advertised for €1750 and sold for €1550. It was most definitely a private sale. NCT until July 2013. Very well kept and very clean. We also found another very nice one and it was from a Dealer at a small Garage in Coolock. Another 03 Santa Fe. Was letting go for €1600, but engine management light came on and an issue would have needing looking at first.

All of the Private Dealer cars we saw, were absolute dog boxes. I know the price bracket doesn't help, but at least she is happy with her purchase.

Much better off with a genuine private sale at that price, glad you found something good. There's absolutely no benefit in going with a scam artist who wouldn't know the history of the car, and most likely would be of no help to you should something go wrong.

Big Nasty

goz83 wrote: »

I thought it would have been self explanatory. By private dealers, I am referring to people who buy cars to sell on at a profit and who usually have 2, or more for sale at a time. It could be a dealer registered, who is pretending to be a private individual, or it could be a private individual selling a multiple of cars. They are the people, who when asked about "the car" they are selling will answer "which one". I for one have never had 2 cars for sale at the one time.

Good news is I found a nice 03 Santa Fe for my sister. Was advertised for €1750 and sold for €1550. It was most definitely a private sale. NCT until July 2013. Very well kept and very clean. We also found another very nice one and it was from a Dealer at a small Garage in Coolock. Another 03 Santa Fe. Was letting go for €1600, but engine management light came on and an issue would have needing looking at first.

All of the Private Dealer cars we saw, were absolute dog boxes. I know the price bracket doesn't help, but at least she is happy with her purchase.

I was being pedantic.

Best of luck with the purchase.

MidlandsM

djimi wrote: »

Its my understanding that you have some statutory protection when buying from a dealer (regardless of the value of the car), whereas when buying from a private seller you have virtually no legal protection? In other words a dealer cannot sell you a car and wash their hands of it the minute it is off the forecourt. If Im wrong about this Im happy to be corrected.

well, you are correct.....but the issue lies in getting your legal rights honoured......chasing/dragging/getting the runabout from a dealer in relation to getting an issue resolved will take up more time and expense than a cheap car is worth, and the vendor knows that.....so, they basically don't give a toss, becuae the laws an ARSE in this area.