Ordering "Pinarello Dogma" Carbon Frame from China - decals or not?

now_hear_this

Hi folks, like so many I am tempted to buy a carbon road bike frame, and in particular the Pinarello Dogma frames to be precise, BUT can anyone tell me if you have to pay tax on what a Pinarello frame is worth here, or is it just tax on whatever you paid for it?

Basically I cant decide whether its a good or bad idea to have it already decorated with names etc... but I would prefer it finished of course.

I would like to hear all stories good or bad in this regard... or how to avoid the tax on it if possible, the government is skinning me enough anyway! haha

Also please advise me on any manufacturers you heard good or bad reports about, so scared of getting "burned", so lets share what we know. I would like to do this the safest way possible.

Many thanks for any advice!

Beasty

now_hear_this wrote: »

or how to avoid the tax on it if possible, the government is skinning me enough anyway! haha

VAT and Import duties are due on import from China - no discussion on how these taxes may be evaded is permitted

Thanks

Beasty

Beasty

Duty is payable on the cost including, iirc, shipping. VAT is then added to the total

But you need to beware - there are a lot of fake Pinarellos, emanating in particular from the Far East (although I'm guessing you know that from the tone of your OP)

now_hear_this

Thanks for that, sorry for the tax evasion request! haha

So I would only be paying tax on whatever I paid for it and not what it is "worth" here? Also I wondered is there a risk that customs and excise would seize as a "fake" Pinarello in that case? theres certainly some risk around it all... but damn those prices are so good!

DirkVoodoo

If you want a Pinarello Dogma, buy a Pinarello Dogma.

If you want a carbon frame from China, buy a carbon frame from China.

I honestly don't understand the need to dress one up as the other. What point does it serve?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSTEqHxh3fI

now_hear_this

because if researched properly you could be buying a proper Dogma frame for a fraction of the normal price, thats why... I would have thought that was obvious, did you really think Pinarello frames were made in Italy? There are reports that they are made in Taiwan and also Shenzhen, China.

DirkVoodoo

I'm not asking about the frames. I'm asking about the decals. At the end of the day, it won't be a Pinarello, because you are not getting any kind of Pinarello quality testing or warranty on the frame.

http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.ie/2011/03/beware-of-fake-pinarello-bikes.html

And if you think you are paying a premium JUST for the frame, you are on your own.

Good luck with your purchase!

colm_gti

now_hear_this wrote: »

because if researched properly you could be buying a proper Dogma frame for a fraction of the normal price, thats why... I would have thought that was obvious, did you really think Pinarello frames were made in Italy? There are reports that they are made in Taiwan and also Shenzhen, China.

Somehow I highly doubt you're getting the same materials and technology as a genuine Pinarello Dogma in a €500 chinese frame, that's not to say I wouldn't consider one, I just think it's naive to think you might be getting the real deal for a fraction of the price.

Just because they're made in the same factory, which they probably are, doesn't mean they'll use the same materials in both.

Would be interested to hear from someone that has had the opportunity to compare one to the real deal, how does it stack up in terms of stiffness and comfort...

Tenzor07

now_hear_this wrote: »

Basically I cant decide whether its a good or bad idea to have it already decorated with names etc... but I would prefer it finished of course.

Yes!

DirkVoodoo

I'm sorry if you were led to believe that the factory/factories Pinarello use to produce their frames are secretly letting copies of the frames go through "midnight runs". Pinarello would have to be pretty stupid to allow such practices to continue.

These are knock-offs from other, mostly unknown sources.

Or maybe you believe that the fake apple stores are in fact real apple stores, that open after midnight and sell iPods and iPads for a fraction of the price...

...yeah, right.

China has taken counterfeit to a whole new level:

Planet X

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I'm sorry if you were led to believe that the factory/factories Pinarello use to produce their frames are secretly letting copies of the frames go through "midnight runs". Pinarello would have to be pretty stupid to allow such practices to continue.

These are knock-offs from other, mostly unknown sources.

Or maybe you believe that the fake apple stores are in fact real apple stores, that open after midnight and sell iPods and iPads for a fraction of the price...

...yeah, right.

China has taken counterfeit to a whole new level:

Is that a "Tyson" heater in the backround?

now_hear_this

Well thanks for your sweeping condemnation of the Chinese people, isn't that lovely... , next you will be telling me that the Irish building trade are all cowboys!

It seems to be pretty well discussed on UK forums that these factories do produce the frames, and that if Pinarello order 50,000 frames the factory might well manufacture another 50,000, whats stopping them? Do you think Pinarello have a man there in China standing on the production line with a calculator? It's setting up the original mould for the frames that is the hard part, although whether they use the same quality of carbon is another thing...

This thread is to find out good and bad reports from those who have already gone down this road... and there are plenty of good reports on UK sites, as well as bad, thanks to those who have contributed helpful remarks.

Lumen

now_hear_this wrote: »

Well thanks for your sweeping condemnation of the Chinese people, isn't that lovely...if Pinarello order 50,000 frames the factory might well manufacture another 50,000, whats stopping them? Do you think Pinarello have a man there in China standing on the production line with a calculator?

Quoted for irony.

Tenzor07

I would think that a very small percentage of carbon frames are made in Europe apart from really high end stuff, possibly 1% of frames! Though I know for a fact Trek make there high-end OCLV frames in the U.S. So it is certainly possible for a "Made in Italy" sticker on a chinese produced frame..

And although they could possibly be made in the same factory as branded frames, they go through less quality control...which means the frames and parts may be subject to more sudden/catastrophic failure, to which you have ZERO come-back on...Something to think about when your hitting 70kph on a descent...

That's not to say the branded stuff doesn't have it's problems, but that's carbon for ya!

DirkVoodoo

now_hear_this wrote: »

Well thanks for your sweeping condemnation of the Chinese people, isn't that lovely... , next you will be telling me that the Irish building trade are all cowboys!

It seems to be pretty well discussed on UK forums that these factories do produce the frames, and that if Pinarello order 50,000 frames the factory might well manufacture another 50,000, whats stopping them? Do you think Pinarello have a man there in China standing on the production line with a calculator? It's setting up the original mould for the frames that is the hard part, although whether they use the same quality of carbon is another thing...

This thread is to find out good and bad reports from those who have already gone down this road... and there are plenty of good reports on UK sites, as well as bad, thanks to those who have contributed helpful remarks.

If your "research" was so complete, why ask? Seems like you were more interested in ways to subvert Irish tax laws (which would not be a topic on UK sites) than anything about the frames.

Yes, I wouldn't find it at all hard to believe Pinarello, in order to stop millions of euro being lost, have a permanent presence and rigorous audit procedure with any factory they license their designs to. But that's just speculation, as is yours about the actual manufacture of these frames.

Can you tell me for certain that they come from the same factory? Or is it a case of "well, it looks good enough, so must be true".

Pinarellos are made by Carbotec in Taiwan. Chinarellos are made by Flybike (former Carbotec and Martec employees) in China. People buying these things from Hong Fu, Deng Fu, Kung Fu or whatever are just getting them from middlemen. The fake frames are made by Flybike.

Why would you ride something with such unclear origins? For me, it's not worth the risk ( = DEATH).

Tenzor07

now_hear_this wrote: »

It's setting up the original mould for the frames that is the hard part, although whether they use the same quality of carbon is another thing....

Of course any manufactuer can buy a mold, but it's the material selection, quality control and engineering that goes into the final product means that the frame may be perfectly strong/safe/durable....then again, they may not... Pay your money and take your
choice...and take the risks associated with it..

now_hear_this

Yeah I have had a true Pinarello frame bottom tube snap in the past so even the real thing is not always perfect, and on another bike too bought in UK...

DirkVooDoo I never said I had done my research, thats what I am doing now, again I shall explain this thread is to find out from people who have had experience in ordering these frames and what their findings were... if you wish to just troll this by copying and pasting stuff you Googled and call it "evidence", good luck with that.

I want to hear real results from experienced people, take the trolling elsewhere.

Nice Chinarello by the way

petethedrummer

Not. You are not ordering a Pinarello.

RidleyRider

OP it won't be a true Pinarello, it'll be something you've dressed up to look like one. I'm sure these Chinese companies do run QC tests but whether they are up to the same standard as the proper Pinarellos is a risk you're going to have to take.

Why not just buy a planet x RT57 or pro carbon that will be the same price after you get stung with import costs and that?

DirkVoodoo

now_hear_this wrote: »

Yeah I have had a true Pinarello frame bottom tube snap in the past so even the real thing is not always perfect, and on another bike too bought in UK...

DirkVooDoo I never said I had done my research, thats what I am doing now, again I shall explain this thread is to find out from people who have had experience in ordering these frames and what their findings were... if you wish to just troll this by copying and pasting stuff you Googled and call it "evidence", good luck with that.

I want to hear real results from experienced people, take the trolling elsewhere.

Nice Chinarello by the way

Yes, it's easy to call what you don't want to hear "trolling".

Yes, I've listed facts from google, I don't believe that is trolling.

Go ahead and order whatever frame you want. But by ordering a fake Pinarello you are infringing on the intellectual property of an established company as well as taking a gamble with your own health and safety.

It seems to me that you are only interested in hearing what you want to hear, which defeats the purpose of posting on a public forum.

Go buy the bike ffs.

now_hear_this

Especially for you Dirk, the message will sink in eventually:

"I shall explain this thread is to find out from people who have had experience in ordering these frames and what their findings were..."

Thanks RidleyRider yeah i was also looking at those too, and also the Ribbles...

DirkVoodoo

now_hear_this wrote: »

Especially for you Dirk, the message will sink in eventually:

"I shall explain this thread is to find out from people who have had experience in ordering these frames and what their findings were..."

Thanks RidleyRider yeah i was also looking at those too, and also the Ribbles...

While I don't appreciate these slights on my intelligence (little unnecessary), if you want to selectively quote your OP, fine:

"I would like to do this the safest way possible."

Very well. Order a frame with a lifetime guarantee.

RidleyRider

now_hear_this wrote: »

Thanks RidleyRider yeah i was also looking at those too, and also the Ribbles...

No expert on this but I think (correct me if i'm wrong) that if you order a frame from a European store you don't get stung with import duties.

'Pinarello' are nice, and I agree with Dirk as top what he's saying. IMO the better option is buy local, or at least... your local Continent:p

now_hear_this

Tell you what Dirk lets make friends, as a token of my goodwill I will buy you a frame too and even give you first test run on it, down a long steep hill with lots of sharp bends at the bottom.

C3PO

I find it hard to accept that the OP really believes that there is any possibility of getting an actual Pinarello Dogma frame ie. a frame that is made in the same factory, on the same production line, using the same moulds, with the same materials from a Chinese e-bay site for €500! Nobody could be that naive?

These frames are copies - some reasonably good, some bloody awful! Go on to the American forums - there is any amount of information there! But I've yet to see any suggestion that the frames are anything other than rip-offs! The days when reputable Chinese manufacturers did secret production runs of their customers products are gone ....

So back to Dirk Voodoo's question .... why would you want an inferior copy of somebody else's bike?

now_hear_this

RidleyRider wrote: »

No expert on this but I think (correct me if i'm wrong) that if you order a frame from a European store you don't get stung with import duties.

'Pinarello' are nice, and I agree with Dirk as top what he's saying. IMO the better option is buy local, or at least... your local Continent:p

Was tempted by the Ribble Stealth, and I qualify for the BiketoWork Scheme so that would certainly make the costs very competitive... a hard call but I wish to explore the Chinese option first before making a decision.

DirkVoodoo

now_hear_this wrote: »

Tell you what Dirk lets make friends, as a token of my goodwill I will buy you a frame too and even give you first test run on it, down a long steep hill with lots of sharp bends at the bottom.

Your faith in these frames is commendable...

DirkVoodoo

now_hear_this wrote: »

Was tempted by the Ribble Stealth, and I qualify for the BiketoWork Scheme so that would certainly make the costs very competitive... a hard call but I wish to explore the Chinese option first before making a decision.

Finally, now that is a good frame and one worth considering. There was a deal on during the summer, my advice would be, seeing as it's winter, hold off on buying until before the season begins and see if any deals (e.g. frame/fork combos) pop up.

Chips Lovell

Thread locked.

Discussion on how to purchase counterfeit goods is not permitted.

Thank you.