Court summons for no car tax.

benking

Hey guys,
I got a summons a while ago for not paying the fine when i should have.
The basic's are the car that got caught has been on and off the road since early 2012, i only ever used it at weekends and never left my local town due to the fact it had no tax.. The car had intermittent issues with the ECU and fuel pump and as i was a student i never had the money to get it all sorted.
Anyway one week while i was at college my brother asked to use the car as his was not starting i said ya and thought no more about it. A few weeks later i got a fine for no tax. Now my brother promised to pay the fine as he felt it was his responsibility even doe i argued 'my car, my responsibility' it was only 60 odd euro so i didnt mind so much, The car should have been taxed. but he insisted and i agreed to let him pay it.
Never thought anymore about it until a month ago when i got the summons. As you can imagine i was extremely annoyed but said brother now lives in Portugal so how annoyed can ya be

The car was not taxed from start of 2012 and caught in may. Honestly the car was very rarely used my parents had payed the insurance for the year so as i said i used it to pop around the town but if i was goin anywhere further i used my mothers car. The car was a nightmare of troubles and it was left sitting in my driveway for another 6months after finally dying in the summer. I only recently sold it to a guy for parts and that's that.

Im very worried about the fine as i know this looks bad. Im just wondering what to expect? I've never had any trouble before this and im only working 1-2days a week so funds are extremely low.

Thanks a million to anyone who replys!

(and for the people who will want to tell me i'll get what i deserve im well aware i should have taxed the car even if it was jst being used around the town, all i want to know is waht to expect.. what kind of fine etc.)

Stheno

Go to court, you'll get a fine of up to a couple of hundred euro, explain what happened to the judge, and apologise and they might go easier on you.

Is the car taxed now?

Max Power

Get yourself a solicitor on the day and tell him your story, as you are a student you probably will not get a big fine although it does depend on the judge.

benking

@stheno That's what im hoping but everyone is telling me the story will sound dodge and i should make something up but i rather be honest then make some bull**** up and trip myself up.. The car is no longer mine, sold it about a months ago for parts.

@FionnMcCool87 Court date is tomorrow morning, i was told i didn't need a solicitor

Stheno

FionnMcCool87 wrote: »

Get yourself a solicitor on the day and tell him your story, as you are a student you probably will not get a big fine although it does depend on the judge.

I'd not bother with a solicitor tbh, cost of the solicitor could be more than the fine.

If OP goes into court dressed well, has a good attitude, and explains to the judge that his brother was to pay the fine, and didn't and has emigrated, OP acknowledges his lack of responsibility in not paying the tax etc, he/she should be fine.

I'd this happen once where I got fined twice in 2 minutes for the same offence, took the approach above, and the judge struck it out. Bit nerve wracking but ok.

Stheno

benking wrote: »

@stheno That's what im hoping but everyone is telling me the story will sound dodge and i should make something up but i rather be honest then make some bull**** up and trip myself up.. The car is no longer mine, sold it about a months ago for parts.

@FionnMcCool87 Court date is tomorrow morning, i was told i didn't need a solicitor

Just do as I suggested in my last post would be my advice.

Apologise, and be sincere about it. You've committed an offence etc, so you need to show you are sorry.

Max Power

benking wrote: »

@FionnMcCool87 Court date is tomorrow morning, i was told i didn't need a solicitor

You don't need one, but you will have to stand up and explain to the judge why your car wasn't taxed and it will look better for you if you have a solicitor speaking for you.

If you intend on getting a solicitor there's usually some hanging around outside the courthouse.

Max Power

Stheno wrote: »

I'd not bother with a solicitor tbh, cost of the solicitor could be more than the fine.

If OP goes into court dressed well, has a good attitude, and explains to the judge that his brother was to pay the fine, and didn't and has emigrated, OP acknowledges his lack of responsibility in not paying the tax etc, he/she should be fine.

I'd this happen once where I got fined twice in 2 minutes for the same offence, took the approach above, and the judge struck it out. Bit nerve wracking but ok.

Some judges frown upon people speaking for themselves, I've seen it, I've been to court twice (tax x 2 :rolleyes:) and the judge got a little angry and questioned defendents on why they hadn't employed a solicitor.

Also OP dress smart, pair of slacks and a shirt.

Good luck and let us know how you get on.

Stheno

FionnMcCool87 wrote: »

Some judges frown upon people speaking for themselves, I've seen it, I've been to court twice (tax x 2 :rolleyes:) and the judge got a little angry and questioned defendents on why they hadn't employed a solicitor.

Also OP dress smart, pair of slacks and a shirt.

Good luck and let us know how you get on.

Ah ok, my experience was the opposite, the judge was decent enough, even took into account I was nervous standing there and talking.

benking

FionnMcCool87 wrote: »

Some judges frown upon people speaking for themselves, I've seen it, I've been to court twice (tax x 2 :rolleyes:) and the judge got a little angry and questioned defendents on why they hadn't employed a solicitor.

Also OP dress smart, pair of slacks and a shirt.

Good luck and let us know how you get on.

Stheno wrote: »

Ah ok, my experience was the opposite, the judge was decent enough, even took into account I was nervous standing there and talking.

Cheers guys really appreciate the advice .. Not sure what to do in regards the solicitor, just texted a friend studying law and hoping she will let me know what i should do.. honestly not sure i can really afford a solicitor but if i have to i will. Im fairly articulate when it comes to speaking so hoping i can get my story across and not make an ejit of myself..
Will let you's know how i get on!

Stheno

If you do decide to go it alone, make notes, and be clear on what you want to say

Best of luck

Wicklowandy

Personally ive spent a lot of time in district court. (family courts are in the break of district court in my area)

As other posters have suggested, dress well, tell the truth and before court starts approach the prosecuting garda (the court clerk will point them out if you are unsure) and explain your story and how the car was then scrapped. Any case i have seen the judge always asks the guard how long the tax was out, and has back tax since been paid or car scrapped.

When in front of the judge explain your case honestly, and explain your financial situation. In my experience the fact you have employed a solicitor for a minor offence (solicitor will charge you €150-€250 just to stand tomorrow) means you can afford fine.

Be honest, present yourself well, and tell the story truthfully. Say that the car was not used by you, just by your brother. Tell you are a student of limited means. And good luck.

Anyone ive seen gets fined from €60 to €250 if they present right.

djimi

Stheno wrote: »

explains to the judge that his brother was to pay the fine, and didn't and has emigrated,

Id leave this bit out if I were you. The judge is not going to care why the fine wasnt paid (and the fact that someone else didnt pay your fine is not an excuse) so it just looks like you are trying to shift the blame. You had no tax on your car for five months; your brother is completely irrelevant to the situation.

Dr_Colossus

Wicklowandy wrote: »

Anyone ive seen gets fined from €60 to €250 if they present right.

So the moral of the story is that it pays to drive untaxed and if caught then pay the fine. If you (brother) was caught in May and the car was untaxed since the start of 2012 why wasn't the car impounded?
I'm some idiot paying over €600 a year in motor tax when I only occasionally use the car at weekends. Would make more sense to leave it untaxed and on the slim chance of being caught pay the €60 fine.

Wicklowandy

Because generally they will seize car if tax is out 2 months let alone 6....

I dont condone (i pay €660 for peace of mind) not taxing a car, but the OP wants advice regarding what can happen when summonsed to district court for the offence. The OP says he cant excuse it either, and understands he will face a penalty. I assume he posted to clarify what the penalty may be, what the process is and if he should get a solicitor.

If you decide to drive a car with no tax, you might get away for a long time, but eventually, the car will be seized and you will pay impound and towing and have to back tax anyway. Not to mention the fact you'll be left standing on the side of the road.

And sods law states that that will happen on a wet day 100 miles from home.

Tax = peace of mind
No Tax = no peace of mind

Wicklowandy

djimi wrote: »

Id leave this bit out if I were you. The judge is not going to care why the fine wasnt paid (and the fact that someone else didnt pay your fine is not an excuse) so it just looks like you are trying to shift the blame. You had no tax on your car for five months; your brother is completely irrelevant to the situation.

I wouldnt blame the brother for not paying the fine, but i would say that the brother foolishly used the car, if he had his own taxed vehicle and was only using yours because his was broken, i'd bring proof of this to court and show the guard before court, and keep it if the judge wants to see it.

It excuses nothing but may mitigate the offence a little bit.

djimi

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

So the moral of the story is that it pays to drive untaxed and if caught then pay the fine. If you (brother) was caught in May and the car was untaxed since the start of 2012 why wasn't the car impounded?
I'm some idiot paying over €600 a year in motor tax when I only occasionally use the car at weekends. Would make more sense to leave it untaxed and on the slim chance of being caught pay the €60 fine.

Surely you have to pay back tax plus the fine, no? If it was as simple as a €60 fine then nobody would ever tax their car...

djimi

Wicklowandy wrote: »

I wouldnt blame the brother for not paying the fine, but i would say that the brother foolishly used the car, if he had his own taxed vehicle and was only using yours because his was broken, i'd bring proof of this to court and show the guard before court, and keep it if the judge wants to see it.

It excuses nothing but may mitigate the offence a little bit.

It doesnt mitigate anything really. Either the OP allowed the brother to take the car when it was untaxed (thus allowing his untaxed vehicle to be driven on public roads) or the brother took the vehicle without the OPs consent which amounts to theft.

awec

This post has been deleted.

galait

benking wrote: »

Hey guys,
I got a summons a while ago for not paying the fine when i should have.
The basic's are the car that got caught has been on and off the road since early 2012, i only ever used it at weekends and never left my local town due to the fact it had no tax.. The car had intermittent issues with the ECU and fuel pump and as i was a student i never had the money to get it all sorted.
Anyway one week while i was at college my brother asked to use the car as his was not starting i said ya and thought no more about it. A few weeks later i got a fine for no tax. Now my brother promised to pay the fine as he felt it was his responsibility even doe i argued 'my car, my responsibility' it was only 60 odd euro so i didnt mind so much, The car should have been taxed. but he insisted and i agreed to let him pay it.
Never thought anymore about it until a month ago when i got the summons. As you can imagine i was extremely annoyed but said brother now lives in Portugal so how annoyed can ya be

The car was not taxed from start of 2012 and caught in may. Honestly the car was very rarely used my parents had payed the insurance for the year so as i said i used it to pop around the town but if i was goin anywhere further i used my mothers car. The car was a nightmare of troubles and it was left sitting in my driveway for another 6months after finally dying in the summer. I only recently sold it to a guy for parts and that's that.

Im very worried about the fine as i know this looks bad. Im just wondering what to expect? I've never had any trouble before this and im only working 1-2days a week so funds are extremely low.

Thanks a million to anyone who replys!

(and for the people who will want to tell me i'll get what i deserve im well aware i should have taxed the car even if it was jst being used around the town, all i want to know is waht to expect.. what kind of fine etc.)

1 Go to tax office and pay arrears
2 On day of case seek out the Garda that is taking the action against you and show him that you have paid arrears ,He will then strike it out


This worked for me

Wicklowandy

Its not a sob story to present your story as it happened.

If the brother had his own taxed vehicle and used the OPs as his was broken and the OP can prove the brother had a taxed vehicle, the judge may look with small sympathy.

If the vehicle is now scrapped and youve an ELV cert, it'll help to prove the OPs lack of means.

Talk to the guard in the courtroom and show him what you have. Be honest with the judge.

The OPs still getting a fine, but how he presents his case will decide if its a small one or a big one.

Ive spent an inordinate amount of time sitting through district court sittings and this has been my experience. If people go to court and respectfully present their case truthfully with as much supporting mitigating factors documented, they may leave with less of a fine.

Or they may meet a judge in bad humour with 30 other no tax cases and everyone will get the same;)

Wicklowandy

The OPs scrapped the car so no arrears can be paid, and you were lucky. Ive seen cases like that still prosecuted and given a small >€100 fine

dilallio

galait wrote: »

1 Go to tax office and pay arrears
2 On day of case seek out the Garda that is taking the action against you and show him that you have paid arrears ,He will then strike it out


This worked for me

+1
This worked for me also.

I showed the Garda my current tax disk and receipt from the Motor Tax Office which showed payment of back tax.
When my name was called, I had just started walking towards the front when the Garda said "Back Taxed" and the Judge replied "Struck Out".

Guy:Incognito

dilallio wrote: »

+1
This worked for me also.

I showed the Garda my current tax disk and receipt from the Motor Tax Office which showed payment of back tax.
When my name was called, I had just started walking towards the front when the Garda said "Back Taxed" and the Judge replied "Struck Out".

So basically the official line is don't bother taxing your car. Leave it few months, if you don't get caught then free tax. If you do, then worst case is you have to pay the tax you should have paid anyway. It's a no lose.

Valetta

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

So basically the official line is don't bother taxing your car. Leave it few months, if you don't get caught then free tax. If you do, then worst case is you have to pay the tax you should have paid anyway. It's a no lose.

Or run the risk of having your car siezed.

Dr_Colossus

The OP's car wasn't seized and that was out of tax for 5 months if caught in May. By the sounds of fines and court proceedings here there's no incentive to actually pay your tax apart from the risk of having your car seized but how likely is that given the lack of check points, I've only seen 3 in Dublin in the last 3 years.

I would have thought that a court summons would have brought a fine of at least €1,000 along with the back tax as an incentive for being law abiding and tax compliant. A €1k fine it not considerable (relative to the motor tax rates in this country) and furthermore given the summons was only due to failure of non payment of the initial fine. Now the public servants' (judge and garda) time is wasted and thus the state should be compensated for such by the defendant rather than the general tax payer.

AndyTheDude

Well, you (your brother ) drove a car with a number of technical faults and no tax on public roads...

I really hope you will end up being frequently sodomized in Mountjoy, dude.

Reoil

What happened in the end?

IrishZeus

AndyTheDude wrote: »

Well, you (your brother ) drove a car with a number of technical faults and no tax on public roads...

I really hope you will end up being frequently sodomized in Mountjoy, dude.

What an utterly pointless and irrelevant post. :rolleyes:

OP, you should be fine. You've owned up that you need to pay the fine. Do so and forget this ever happened.

Just pay the tax in future and save yourself the headache

benking

Hey guys! So i had my day in court.

After not sleeping very much the night before i headed down to the courthouse, my friend who study's law told me not to hire a solicitor as they would not be able to lesson the fine and would only charge me for something im very capable of doing e.g standing up and making my case. So i did what you guys advised and wrote down all my points of what i wanted to put across. I went into the courthouse and sat down. I knew i'd be waiting a while as its called alphabetically.. very interesting to observe all the same.
The most expensive fine for driving offenses handed out before me was €450 for drink driving, so this kinda made me feel better about it as i was expecting a fine of around €150-200 and it seemed that that's what i would be getting.

So my name was called, I quickly got up and walked to the top of the courtroom, heart racing and before i knew what was what the judge said "struck out" .. I stood there for second and was not sure what had happened but there was no time as they were already calling the next case. I walked back to my partner who told me someone had shouted to the judge the guard was not in attendance.
So there ya have it, i know this is gonna piss a whole load of people off on here given the previous few comments but all i'll say is i very much doubt when you's where 21 you's were angels. I know what i did was wrong but when i said i only used the car around my local town i meant it, my mother is very good to let me use her 06golf and trust me i use that any chance i can for obvious reasons. My car was a piece of crap astra that i made a mistake in buying ha but again im young and it's not like i have intentions of ever doing this again.

I was lucky, very lucky.

Also thanks for all the advise, seriously was hugely appreciated

Vicxas

Well done OP.

Consider this a lesson learnt for next time

dahamsta

djimi wrote: »

Id leave this bit out if I were you. The judge is not going to care why the fine wasnt paid (and the fact that someone else didnt pay your fine is not an excuse) so it just looks like you are trying to shift the blame. You had no tax on your car for five months; your brother is completely irrelevant to the situation.

In this specific case though, is he irrelevant? Setting the rest of it aside, isn't the /driver/ responsible for motor tax, so in reality the fine is actually the brothers?

I don't think I'd take that tack too hard in court, because judges are judges and they tend to do what they like whether or which, particularly in traffic court, but if it was me I'd certainly mention it on the off chance the judge would throw it out for the above reason.

It's certainly what a solicitor should be doing, if it really is the case.

EDIT: Congrats OP. Now don't drive a car without tax again please. If someone isn't dying, your excuse is crap.

oldyouth

Fair play OP, if it was me I would be as happy as you are.

I'm not trolling, but I'm annoyed to hear that there are no consequences for crime that is admitted by a defendant, just because a Garda hasn't turned up. Surely we can devise a better system to process financial crimes like this without having to drag Gardai away from their main work. If there is a good chance technicalities will see a case dismissed, then more will take the risk of offending.

I'm not just referring to your incident OP, it's widespread and I've seen it 1st hand

Our man in Havana

To do that you would undermine the entire justice system.

The state failed to state any case against the OP. That is not the OP's problem. Why should someone simply roll over if the state cannot be arsed to submit evidence?

oldyouth

Our man in Havana wrote: »

To do that you would undermine the entire justice system.

The state failed to state any case against the OP. That is not the OP's problem. Why should someone simply roll over if the state cannot be arsed to submit evidence?

That's my point, the system is flawed and the OP took advantage of it, as would anyone. Something more efficient needs to be devised

Our man in Havana

Without undermining the protections provided in the constitution that will be very difficult.

RustyNut

Nice one OP, now off and spend some of the fine money on Tuesday's euromillions.

RustyNut

oldyouth wrote: »

Fair play OP, if it was me I would be as happy as you are.

I'm not trolling, but I'm annoyed to hear that there are no consequences for crime that is admitted by a defendant, just because a Garda hasn't turned up. Surely we can devise a better system to process financial crimes like this without having to drag Gardai away from their main work. If there is a good chance technicalities will see a case dismissed, then more will take the risk of offending.

I'm not just referring to your incident OP, it's widespread and I've seen it 1st hand

You are looking for justice. The courts don't deal in justice they deal in law and in this case the OP was the beneficiary of this.

Guy:Incognito

Vicxas wrote: »

Well done OP.

Consider this a lesson learnt for next time

The lesson seems to be don't bother with tax cos most likely nothing will happen, no?

tallaghtmick

Congrats OP lesson learned etc,but I still feel the admins on boards should give you a weeks ban for being bold :pac:

Max Power

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

The lesson seems to be don't bother with tax cos most likely nothing will happen, no?

Seems that way, no more tax for me.

Well done OP, delighted you didn't get a fine.

djimi

I dont really see what lesson anyone has learned from this, except that our legal system is a bit of a joke.

Stheno

oldyouth wrote: »

That's my point, the system is flawed and the OP took advantage of it, as would anyone. Something more efficient needs to be devised

djimi wrote: »

I dont really see what lesson anyone has learned from this, except that our legal system is a bit of a joke.

Apparently as part of cutbacks, gardai no longer get paid/overtime for days they spend in court that are on their rostered days off, so they may not turn up.

Wicklowandy

And isnt district court proceedings some of the most interesting / depressing / enlightening (delete as appropriate) times you can spend

dahamsta

Stheno wrote: »

Apparently as part of cutbacks, gardai no longer get paid/overtime for days they spend in court that are on their rostered days off, so they may not turn up.

This is nothing new. I had a speeding case dismissed because the Garda didn't turn up back when I had my bike, must be nearly 20 years ago now. It happens all the time.

Move on, nothing to see here.

benking

oldyouth wrote: »

That's my point, the system is flawed and the OP took advantage of it, as would anyone. Something more efficient needs to be devised

I didn't take advantage of any system, i went to court ready to pay the fine and accept the consequences. The guard didn't show up so i didn't get a fine. This could have very easily gone the other way.. a pissed off judge who decided to make an example and handed me a large fine.
Also for people saying they dont have to back tax the car, of course you have to back tax it, My car is gone hence why i dont have to worry about that but if i still had it id have to back tax it for nearly a year and pay the fine.. it all add's up. The state is in cut back mode and honestly i can't blame a guard who for not coming to court for one minor offence on his day off. Would any of you?

oldyouth

benking wrote: »

I didn't take advantage of any system, i went to court ready to pay the fine and accept the consequences. The guard didn't show up so i didn't get a fine. This could have very easily gone the other way.. a pissed off judge who decided to make an example and handed me a large fine.
Also for people saying they dont have to back tax the car, of course you have to back tax it, My car is gone hence why i dont have to worry about that but if i still had it id have to back tax it for nearly a year and pay the fine.. it all add's up. The state is in cut back mode and honestly i can't blame a guard who for not coming to court for one minor offence on his day off. Would any of you?

Sorry, perhaps gained advantage of the system would be a better word. You were guilty of an offence, the fine wasn't paid and you were summonsed to court. The net result is that you suffered no penalty. Don't get me wrong, if it was me, I'd be giving high fives all over. I just think there should be an efficient, streamlined system that encourages compliance rather than dishing out fines on a maybe or maybe not basis

Our man in Havana

streamlined system that encourages compliance

East Germany went out of business in 1990.

Guy:Incognito

benking wrote: »

Also for people saying they dont have to back tax the car, of course you have to back tax it, My car is gone hence why i dont have to worry about that but if i still had it id have to back tax it for nearly a year and pay the fine.. it all add's up. The state is in cut back mode and honestly i can't blame a guard who for not coming to court for one minor offence on his day off. Would any of you?

Having to back tax it isn't a punishment though. That's just making you pay something you should have paid anyway, so the sytem seems to allow for people to try get away with it for as long as they can and if they happen to be caught then they just pay the tax, no harm no foul. That's a stupid system. It's making it so easy to not tax the car for 6 months, get it signed off the road, tax for 3 months, leave for the next 6 etc etc,

RustyNut

Surely the fairest system would be to have all tax on fuel so every one pays and the more you use the more you pay.