Vokera Mynute He query

cubix

Lads
Were asked to look at this boiler that would not start by a customer, as per the pics when we removed the cover there was water in the base which was covering the condense sensor, tank was also full. Hoovered out the space along with the outlet pipe from the tank which has been piped into a 32mm kitchen waste which disappers in behind the cupboards. Connected everything back up and boiler fires up no problem. We checked the kitchen waste for a block which there seem to be none, all connections are dry. As mentioned condense tank was full, any other reason why the tank would fill to the top and possibly overflow or are these boiler know for leaking somewhere else.

esox28

have seen leaks b4 on the return connection joint where the stainless joins the hose pipe. did you check all ch connection within sealed casing?

jimjimt

Let the condense pipe into a bucket and observe.
If the trap does not overflow it is waste pipe problem.
If it does over flow it is a boiler problem.


Is the pressure holding on the heating system ?

cubix

As far as I know the lads (plumbers) checked all connections. I am more of a gofor so am always melting their brains taking pics & asking "Why" questions. What is a Ch connection.
JJ: Dont think its the kitchen waste as they must of poured 4-5liters down it with out a bother. IF it is a leak internally it must be minute as nothing visible when boiler was running and pressure seems to hold at 1bar.

Inside the codense tank at the rear of the boiler as per pic there is a float ball which I presume raises as water levels raise to relesase water but as you see from the photo it seems to be holding water. Any idea if the clear pipe to the right of the tank that goes up behind the burner has anything to do with the float ball operation, equalise pressure?

esox28

sorry mate, the central heating connections.

jimjimt

The boiler looks new and shiny Is it a new install ?
Was it tested and commission in full ?

cubix

Esox:;)
JJ:It does but had a service sticker on it going back to 2009 up to now.

jimjimt

Monitor pressure drop on the system and if it drops check what Mr esox28 is saying.
Either ways do not be fiddling with it if the last service was in 2009 it would be due another one.

cubix

JJ: When I said up to now I meant it recently had one. Strange thing is the pooled water as slightly rusted the backing nut that holds the copper pipe coming up from the gas valve so I presume its been going on for a little while. So there is a good chance the last lad simply stuck his flue analysis inside and did not bother removing the cover.

jimjimt

So there is a good chance the last lad simply stuck his flue analysis inside and did not bother removing the cover.

That is the fashion nowadays.

He should have left some paper work behind him. See what it says and how long ago was the service ?

cubix

Last service 1month ago

jimjimt

If it is the condensate pipe that is leaking it will rust items a lot quicker..a lot quicker !!

esox28

same thing with the vokera I had a leak with, the water pooled and dident overflow into the controls chamber seemed the leak was so slight that it had time to evaporate with the help of heat from burning process going on in the boiler. the guy servicing the boiler maybe disturbed the ch connection during the service.

wouldent think there is any rgi out there who would just probe boilers flue and not even open the sealed casing then say " payme and good luck" :eek:

I called out vokera service team to fix the hose clamp otherwise a 2 day wait for part to arrive which was not as option at the time, If you can wait the time for part I would as service team charged something like €220 your local rgi will be able to reclamp the clamp

cubix

Esox:
Can you mark which connection on the photo. With your one was it a slow drip

shane0007

Did you dismantle and inspect the trap?

cubix

When you say trap do you mean the kitchen waste pipe, if so not possible as it goes down and runs behind kitchen cabinets and then T's into sink/dishwasher etc waste before heading for the 4" all of which seem to be flowing away find.

shane0007

No, the condensate trap in the boiler!

esox28

its the joint in the middle of first pic, you are looking for the stainless steel 20mm pipe which connects to the rubber black hose its that connecting clip Which gave trouble.

cubix

Not sure will have to ask the lads in the morning. Is that the clear plastic tank as per pic. IF so yes they had that out.
Esox:;)

shane0007

Would there not be a pressure drop of leaking from there?
Condensate trap very full! I would be looking also at that area, outlet, seals, etc.

youtheman

I have the same boiler, and had the exact same problem during the 'big freeze' a few years back, The casing kept getting flooded, and you'll see a white plastic pipe that allows the fluid drain into the 'gas valve' underneath and this resulted in 'flame out', and for the life of me I can't understand or remember what this 'feature' is for.

Anyway, the 'root cause' was the condensate was made from 1/2" copper, and was replaced with PVC (1 1/4" if I remember correctly).

Look at the condensate trap, you should inspect the 2 grey 1/2" pipes, but also there is a 1/4" PVC pipe on the right that goes up to the secondary heat exchanger at the top of the casing. Make sure this pipe is sound and connected at both ends.

cubix

Cheers lads will pass on the info
Youtheman:day to day what levels does your condense trap get to

youtheman

cubix wrote: »

Cheers lads will pass on the info
Youtheman:day to day what levels does your condense trap get to

I believe the condensate trap will always be full, a bit like your jacks bowl. There are two chambers side by side. The liquid flows into one and when it fills it overflows into the next one and eventually up and over the second one and then down the drain. So the condensate box has a water seal.

cubix

And the prize goes to Esox28;) We were called back for another issue on the boiler and when looking in you could see the smallest of drop's on the silver pipe behind the fan in pic 3 marked in green

Regarding the other issue (code34) which I am being told is a fan. Can someone please tell me there is a simpler way to get the old fan out and new one in. From looking at Vokera's diagrams it would seem to suggest that the combustion chamber will need to come out. The other option I think is to remove kitchen cabinets and take side panel off boiler housing to access the two of the four bolts holding on the fan which are at the rear of the unit

shane0007

Fan is simple to remove. Just remove gas pipe, cables and four screws from below. Fan will ease out then from the front.

jimjimt

How does one clean the exchanger on that boiler during its annual service ? :rolleyes:

esox28

how do you know u need a new fan? havent looked but im sure that code has a couple of different meanings.

you dont have have to remove the heat exchanger for that he model :eek: for a general service. But it is a painif you have to.

shane0007

jimjimt wrote: »

How does one clean the exchanger on that boiler during its annual service ? :rolleyes:

The fan/burner assembly is removed and then access to the combustion chamber. It is a bit tight but with a few altered brushes, etc. it can be cleaned to satisfaction.

shane0007

esox28 wrote: »

how do you know u need a new fan? havent looked but im sure that code has a couple of different meanings.

I think it is only fan failure but I could be wrong.

esox28

yea but couldent fan failure be a disconnected terminal or reversed polarty on fan imo I wouldent go pulling out the fan on a code with out tech follow up.

shane0007

I would have assumed basic checks have been carried out and the fan motor has been tested before going out and purchasing a new fan.

cubix

Cheers lads
Esox: The lads seemed fairly sure it was a fan fault code, with regards to it being a disconnected terminal or reversed polarty on fan. My understanding it was working prior to this and had begun to make a bit of a racket.

Shane: Two things, what would you call basic checks and with regards to the four screws, the two at the front are handy but how do you manage to get the two at the rear.

I am to long in the tooth to go back to train as a plumber but would be interested in doing courses for boiler install/maintenance. Any in particular that you lads would suggest, ideally night.
Thanks

anuprising

yes there is a 9 day wonder course that some of the lads on here seem to know about :-) maybe they could pm you the details , but I'm surprised they gave you advice on how to disassemble a gas boiler when your not rgi registered :-) :-)

jimjimt

OFTEC for oil courses and you can become an OFTEC Technician.Most likely you will be able to avail of their courses. So in about 10 - 15 days you can go out a install and service oil boilers.

RGII are the governing body for gas installers but do not as such do the gas installer courses.
FETAC have taken over the gas installer courses and now at a minimum entry you will have to come from a qualifying trade back ground. FETAC have such close the back door in to becoming a gas installer as in you can no longer do a 10 day OFTEC course and go on to be a gas installer without a more qualifying background.

The two main training agencies to get all information in full and entry requirements are,

Chevron Training

METAC

Opinions vary on which is the better.

Some fas centres also run gas and oil courses.

shane0007

cubix wrote: »

Cheers lads
Esox: The lads seemed fairly sure it was a fan fault code, with regards to it being a disconnected terminal or reversed polarty on fan. My understanding it was working prior to this and had begun to make a bit of a racket.

Shane: Two things, what would you call basic checks and with regards to the four screws, the two at the front are handy but how do you manage to get the two at the rear.

I am to long in the tooth to go back to train as a plumber but would be interested in doing courses for boiler install/maintenance. Any in particular that you lads would suggest, ideally night.
Thanks

I assumed you were already an RGI. Sorry, end of advice regarding working on a gas appliance.

Re: Training, Metac is probably the finest and best fitted out training centres in the country. You will need to contact them and see if you qualify to get on one of the courses there.

JohnnieK

Have you looked at the auto air vent on the top right in at the back?these used to fail and leak.Vokera put a metal plate above the fan motor to stop the water from dripping in and shorting the fan which is what happened in some cases. There is no metal plate on that one so it must be prior to this.worth a look.

cubix

anuprising wrote: »

yes there is a 9 day wonder course that some of the lads on here seem to know about :-) maybe they could pm you the details , but I'm surprised they gave you advice on how to disassemble a gas boiler when your not rgi registered :-) :-)

Not me dismantling it, just working on the job regarding other bits and curious how what the lads(plumbers) are doing. IF the lads feel the cabinet needs to come down to access fan it will be me doing it:rolleyes: hence the reason my question. Long term, like everyone here I am eager to learn new things and totally understand we live in a world were you need to have the proper qualifacations to work with gas which I would hope to do in the near future.

shane0007 wrote: »

Fan is simple to remove. Just remove gas pipe, cables and four screws from below. Fan will ease out then from the front.

Shane can you confirm how to access the back screws, when the lads had the front cover off it looked pretty tight even for a small hand. Vokera's line seem to be to take the side cover off and access it that way which as you see from the photo is not possible without removing cabinets.

JimJimt: thanks for the links
Johnneik:There was a definite drip from the stainless steel pipe where it joins the rubber at the rear of the fan but will mention it to the lads.

JohnnieK

cubix wrote: »

Not me dismantling it, just working on the job regarding other bits and curious how what the lads(plumbers) are doing. IF the lads feel the cabinet needs to come down to access fan it will be me doing it:rolleyes: hence the reason my question. Long term, like everyone here I am eager to learn new things and totally understand we live in a world were you need to have the proper qualifacations to work with gas which I would hope to do in the near future.

Are you a cabinet maker? If so you won't meet the criteria to do the course. You would need a level 6 fetac national craft cert in plumbing or electrical . All the back doors are getting closed . Even these 9 day courses are not recognised by the CER as of about 2 months ago.

There is someone out there who i regarded as a legend in the industry who has started his own training school. He was one the first to come up with the 9 day course. I think he is a sell out now and is only interested in getting the numbers in. He always said it couldn't be done in less than 15.

anuprising

JohnnieK wrote: »

There is someone out there who i regarded as a legend in the industry who has started his own training school. He was one the first to come up with the 9 day course. I think he is a sell out now and is only interested in getting the numbers in. He always said it couldn't be done in less than 15.

you think he's a legend cause of his links with precision :-)

Martin is still the only gas instructor to ever eject candidates during a training course as he found out there credentials were less than honourable with no background in thd industry

as for metac they will train anyone , they trained a van driver from my area , chap hadn't a clue and still doesn't but had money .

JohnnieK

Ers and chevron will train anyone two. Questionable characters in my class in ers and too in my friends class in chevron. I met him after his precision days so no ties there :-)

He was quite militant when he was employed but has softened up since starting his own.

gdavis

Have to say tho,there is very little martin doesnt know bout boilers!some man for the horror stories too lol

anuprising

JohnnieK wrote: »

He was one the first to come up with the 9 day course. I think he is a sell out now and is only interested in getting the numbers in. He always said it couldn't be done in less than 15.

according to his website it is 15 days fulltime - 5 for the gis and 10 for the gid (18 if done 1 day a week ) i cant see anywhere where he does it in 9 days


Gas Installer / Safety (Ref – GI/S)
Availability:
Gas Installer Safety (GI / S) – The programme is run for a period of 6 days; either 1 day per week for 6 weeks or 2 evenings per week for 6 weeks or 5 days per week for 1 week.

Gas Installer / Domestic (Ref – GI/D)

Availability:
Gas Installer Domestic (GI / D) – The programme is run for a period of 12 days; either 1 day per week for 12 weeks or 2 days per week for 6 weeks, or 10 days, 5 days per week for 2 weeks

shane0007

anuprising wrote: »

according to his website it is 15 days fulltime - 5 for the gis and 10 for the gid (18 if done 1 day a week ) i cant see anywhere where he does it in 9 days


Gas Installer / Safety (Ref – GI/S)
Availability:
Gas Installer Safety (GI / S) – The programme is run for a period of 6 days; either 1 day per week for 6 weeks or 2 evenings per week for 6 weeks or 5 days per week for 1 week.

Gas Installer / Domestic (Ref – GI/D)

Availability:
Gas Installer Domestic (GI / D) – The programme is run for a period of 12 days; either 1 day per week for 12 weeks or 2 days per week for 6 weeks, or 10 days, 5 days per week for 2 weeks

That was not his decision but the decision of the CER/RGII! That will be standard across all training centres. Commercial gas will also be 18 days.
I see he is doing OFTEC in 4 days!

anuprising

shane0007 wrote: »

That was not his decision but the decision of the CER/RGII! That will be standard across all training centres. Commercial gas will also be 18 days.
I see he is doing OFTEC in 4 days!

i dont understand your response about not his decision , can you link to the cer/rgii standard/decision that you mention .

i have never seen or heard of him doing a 9 day course as jonnie stated ,maybe he could link to it ?

shane0007

There is no link to that decision but it is true. I took it from your post that you made a point of the length of his course, he was not offering a shorter course.
I was only commenting on all training centres will only be able to offer this course and course length to non-registered RGI's.
The shorter course and the acceptance criteria is just about gone but all were offering this when it was available. If one centre offered it under acceptance of the CER/RGII then all do as it would not be competitive to do otherwise.
As for OFTEC, the 4 dayer is news to me. I know Chevron brought out the 5 dayer, halving the normal 10 dayer. Other TC's had to follow suit to compete. To me, even the 10 dayer is too short.
IMHO, I think all TC's take a lot of flack and blame but a lot is to do with the regulatory bodies and general competition. If the courses are too long, they are too dear and nobody can afford them. Funding is gone for them. If they are too short, they are churning out incompetent installers. Where is the happy medium?

shane0007

anuprising wrote: »

i dont understand your response about not his decision , can you link to the cer/rgii standard/decision that you mention .

i have never seen or heard of him doing a 9 day course as jonnie stated ,maybe he could link to it ?

The 9 day he is referring to is his 10 day course. Day 10 is final assessment day so it is only 9 days of learning.

cubix

As mentioned previously, the fan was replaced which did the trick. Is there anywhere that repairs these (to keep as a spare) or is it a case of throwing it away, if not it seems a shame considering they cost so much. Another words is there a common fault that goes wrong with the Vokera fan.