pump positions on back boiler & oil boiler open system

infinitymail

Hello, hope somebody can help.
I need to know where the circulating pump should be located on the oil boiler and on the back boiler stove. (on flow or return)
I have an open vented system with a back boiler stove and an oil boiler both feeding into a dual coil cylinder and radiators.
The original oil boiler has the pump on the flow pipe right beside the boiler and my plumber has said that this was placed in wrong position right from original installation. I have looked at 3 neighboors with same systems and they all have the oil boiler pump on same flow pipe (and all plumbed by different plumbers.

jimjimt

Go to the link below and go to page 7.

Nice diagram to help you on your way.
http://www.rayburn-web.co.uk/Prodin/...er%20stove.pdf

infinitymail

this attachment is how the system is set up at present. The stove pump is downstairs and pulling water from rads

infinitymail

Thanks JimJImt tried link
http://www.rayburn-web.co.uk/Prodin/...er%20stove.pdf but not opening

jimjimt

I most have copy and paste incorrectly.

http://www.rayburn-web.co.uk/Prodin/Aga%20Obsolete%20stoves/Aga%20Much%20Wenlock%20sf%20boiler%20stove.pdf

bilko05

the pump can be placed on either the flow or the return....but is best placed on the flow near the boiler.if your plumber is telling you that this is in the wrong position i'd have real worries about him as its very common and simple knowledge as to where the pump can be placed.tell him you want it in this position with valves either side.

jimjimt

Perhaps a jpeg file might work better.

infinitymail

jimjimt wrote: »

Perhaps a jpeg file might work better.

if im right this shows stove pump on return side

shane0007

infinitymail wrote: »

this attachment is how the system is set up at present. The stove pump is downstairs and pulling water from rads

Why is the oil boiler flow pumping into the return on the cylinder coil or have you just drawn it wrong?
You also have no ovsp on the oil side.
The solid fuel is piped to the oil side cylinder flow!!!

infinitymail

bilko05 wrote: »

the pump can be placed on either the flow or the return....but is best placed on the flow near the boiler.if your plumber is telling you that this is in the wrong position i'd have real worries about him as its very common and simple knowledge as to where the pump can be placed.tell him you want it in this position with valves either side.

From what I've read flow is best.
I cant find any recomended schematics for a combined oil boiler and back boiler. Even the stanley stove I got has very little info.
Im suprised ther is no definive answer from manufacturers.
Either way, as you can see from the schematic I posted earlier, our plumber has placed the stove circulating pump on the return circuit but not the final return pipe.
( i realise he has also placed the oil feed to cylinder as end of cylinder coil , so I want that fixed also)

shane0007

There should also be no gate valve on the f & e pipe!
What is the dashed line between f & e pipe and the cylinder return?

shane0007

infinitymail wrote: »

From what I've read flow is best.
I cant find any recomended schematics for a combined oil boiler and back boiler. Even the stanley stove I got has very little info.
Im suprised ther is no definive answer from manufacturers.
Either way, as you can see from the schematic I posted earlier, our plumber has placed the stove circulating pump on the return circuit but not the final return pipe.
( i realise he has also placed the oil feed to cylinder as end of cylinder coil , so I want that fixed also)

https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/528320/206907.pdf

infinitymail

shane0007 wrote: »

Why is the oil boiler flow pumping into the return on the cylinder coil or have you just drawn it wrong?
You also have no ovsp on the oil side.
The solid fuel is piped to the oil side cylinder flow!!!

Ive double checked my plumber pipe work again and again. I certain he has the oil boiler flow pumped into the return of cylinder coil.
He's due back tommorow and that is one thing I can now say is definitely wrong or at the very least completely innefficent.
Not sure about ovsp, what is it? I will check immideately

Regarding "The solid fuel is piped to the oil side cylinder flow" Yes, I asked the plumber why the expansion tank was filling with hot water when I turned on the oil boiler, he said he couldnt understand it but wll sort it out tomorow.

infinitymail

shane0007 wrote: »

There should also be no gate valve on the f & e pipe!
What is the dashed line between f & e pipe and the cylinder return?

Thanks again Shane0007
The gate valves where already there from the old oil boiler closed system. Is it worth getting them removed? I assume they restrict flow.

The dashed line between f & e pipe and the cylinder return is a 1/2 pipe feeding water from the expansion tank to the cylinder return....why I'm not sure, but guessing something to do with feeding cold water to oil burner system

shane0007

infinitymail wrote: »

Ive double checked my plumber pipe work again and again. I certain he has the oil boiler flow pumped into the return of cylinder coil.
He's due back tommorow and that is one thing I can now say is definitely wrong or at the very least completely innefficent.
Not sure about ovsp, what is it? I will check immideately

Regarding "The solid fuel is piped to the oil side cylinder flow" Yes, I asked the plumber why the expansion tank was filling with hot water when I turned on the oil boiler, he said he couldnt understand it but wll sort it out tomorow.

Open vent safety pipe. Basically it's the hockey stick shaped pipe from the flow to the f & e tank in the attic. It is there for safety and you should have one for each heat source.

shane0007

infinitymail wrote: »

Thanks again Shane0007
The gate valves where already there from the old oil boiler closed system. Is it worth getting them removed? I assume they restrict flow.

Yes, remove it, or at the very least, remove the head of it so it cannot be mistakenly turned off.

infinitymail wrote: »

The dashed line between f & e pipe and the cylinder return is a 1/2 pipe feeding water from the expansion tank to the cylinder return....why I'm not sure, but guessing something to do with feeding cold water to oil burner system

This is why there is hw flowing through the ovsp. You cannot have 2 f & e pipes as the f & e tank just becomes a radiator with a flow & return to & from it. It will rot your system in no time continuously re-oxygenating the system.

This is basic stuff for decent installer!

However, by the looks of things, it would not take a lot for you to have a text book system.

infinitymail

shane0007 wrote: »

Open vent safety pipe. Basically it's the hockey stick shaped pipe from the flow to the f & e tank in the attic. It is there for safety and you should have one for each heat source.

It seems we have one ovsp, I've shown it as the U shaped pipe.
Here is a new schematic with the oil boiler flow and return pipes moved to correct positions and 2 gate valves removed. This is something plumber will do tommorow (I hope)

infinitymail

shane0007 wrote: »

Yes, remove it, or at the very least, remove the head of it so it cannot be mistakenly turned off.



This is why there is hw flowing through the ovsp. You cannot have 2 f & e pipes as the f & e tank just becomes a radiator with a flow & return to & from it. It will rot your system in no time continuously re-oxygenating the system.

This is basic stuff for decent installer!

However, by the looks of things, it would not take a lot for you to have a text book system.

Point taken about installer, at this stage, to be kind, I'm just putting it down to human error by mixing pipe runs.
How should oil boiler circuit be connected to expansion tank?

shane0007

infinitymail wrote: »

It seems we have one ovsp, I've shown it as the U shaped pipe.
Here is a new schematic with the oil boiler flow and return pipes moved to correct positions and 2 gate valves removed. This is something plumber will do tommorow (I hope)

No, the U shaped one you have is the f & e pipe. You need another pipe from between the air vent and the pump on the boiler flow to the f & e tank. It is a hockey stick shaped pipe that extends over the f & e tank and finish just inside the cover of the tank.
Remove the dashed line pipe completely.
You also need another non-return valve on the positive side of the pump.
Bottom blue arrow from oil cylinder coil is,pointing the wrong way.
Bring the f & e pipe from the solid fuel cylinder flow to the cylinder return.

It will then be looking like a very nice system.

bilko05

just for interest......how old is this house.....im guessing old???

infinitymail

bilko05 wrote: »

just for interest......how old is this house.....im guessing old???

its less than 15 years. It had the typical closed pressurised oil burner system.
Now its trying to have a dual (oil boiler and back boiler stove) open system....
Its seems this has become a popular arrangement of late.
But sticking to the point of this thread it seems pumps can go on either return or flow but preferance is on flow due to less chance of creating negative pressure. It seems negative pressure can introduce air to system, which means corrosion.

jimjimt

What make and model is the stove ?
Did you get a manual with it ?

On the Stanley stove and cooker manuals they look for the pumps and non return valves on the returns on a open vented system.

infinitymail

jimjimt wrote: »

What make and model is the stove ?
Did you get a manual with it ?

On the Stanley stove and cooker manuals they look for the pumps and non return valves on the returns on a open vented system.

Yes jim
Got the manuals and they dont say an awful lot. My stanley reginald manual for instance says "
This diagram illustrates the basic principal of water
heating systems and must not be regarded as a
working drawing."
It doesnt show non return valves etc
I have no real worry where it goes once its safe and efficient. All our rad pipes are in concrete floors so to repipe the whole plumbing system because the pipe detiorated early is pointless
I found this link to a FAS course which discusses domestic plumbing in some good detail. http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=domestic_central_heating_m3_u2%5B&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CCQQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ecollege.ie%2Fsite%2Fliu%2FPlumbing_notes%2FDomestic_Central_Heating_M3_U2.doc&ei=jlyiULHlOdSLhQfqh4HQDw&usg=AFQjCNFOqa0MPwg2n7BLgyJPC-rV0Zgr6Q

jimjimt

You are never going to get a perfect drawing of what to do. Experience and adopt the pipe work in the house to make it work.

Here is a drawing from a stanley oil cooker manual with a stanley solid fuel stove combined. The same as the Aga drawing.
All stanley tech manuals can be downloaded from their web site.


http://www.waterfordstanley.com/stanley-owners/technical-manuals.aspx

Start forwarding pictures from a camera this evening might reveal more.

The Fas manual is good. Just to throw the spanner in the works they state to have the both pumps on either the flow or return but not one on the flow and other on the return.

shane0007

infinitymail wrote: »

Yes jim
Got the manuals and they dont say an awful lot. My stanley reginald manual for instance says "
This diagram illustrates the basic principal of water
heating systems and must not be regarded as a
working drawing."
It doesnt show non return valves etc
I have no real worry where it goes once its safe and efficient. All our rad pipes are in concrete floors so to repipe the whole plumbing system because the pipe detiorated early is pointless
I found this link to a FAS course which discusses domestic plumbing in some good detail. http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=domestic_central_heating_m3_u2%5B&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CCQQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ecollege.ie%2Fsite%2Fliu%2FPlumbing_notes%2FDomestic_Central_Heating_M3_U2.doc&ei=jlyiULHlOdSLhQfqh4HQDw&usg=AFQjCNFOqa0MPwg2n7BLgyJPC-rV0Zgr6Q

Well what do ya know, every example shows the pump on the flow and the one that is on the return, they give examples of issues that can arise from it, such as pump over, etc.

infinitymail

jimjimt wrote: »

You are never going to get a perfect drawing of what to do. Experience and adopt the pipe work in the house to make it work.

Here is a drawing from a stanley oil cooker manual with a stanley solid fuel stove combined. The same as the Aga drawing.
All stanley tech manuals can be downloaded from their web site.


http://www.waterfordstanley.com/stanley-owners/technical-manuals.aspx

Start forwarding pictures from a camera this evening might reveal more.

The Fas manual is good. Just to throw the spanner in the works they state to have the both pumps on either the flow or return but not one on the flow and other on the return.

Regarding two pumps on return, it would seem to me that this would cause the two pumps to both try and pull the same water from the rads and then the circuit with the least resistance will pull most water, thus depriving the other of water.
If one was on flow and one on return then they be acting in series and perhaps more efficent...just an idea....what do you think?

infinitymail

shane0007 wrote: »

Well what do ya know, every example shows the pump on the flow and the one that is on the return, they give examples of issues that can arise from it, such as pump over, etc.

Yes Shane007, it seems the FAS plumbers guide prefer pump on flow but the waterford stanley manuals show pump on return.

jimjimt

Evertones's preference will differ.
Mine is for the return's. Has serve me very well over 22 years.

If I go into a house and see two pumps on the flow, I do not get high and mighty and say that is wrong and cause unnecessary expense to the client. You have to find the problems first. It is very rare in switching pumps around will cure the problem.

Most of the time either the expansion, cold feed and return valves are the problem and not the where the pumps are. If you switch pumps between flow and returns you will most likely have to change cold feed,expansion and non return valves to suit the switch. Unnecessary expense.

You have plenty of diagrams and a good understanding. See what suits your pipework and house layout the best and discuss it with your plumber.
If you use a manufactures diagram you will not go too far wrong regardless if they have the pump on the flow, return and in some cases both.

invpat

Hi all,

A bit of advice needed.I have a dual system back boiler behind fire place and oil boiler.I installed a chimney balloon because I decided to stop lighting fires (mess etc etc).I now realise that the back boiler heats up like a radiator, probably always did but heat just disappeared up the flue.What do I need to do to stop the back boiler heating up.

Henry Gee

The pump has a longer life in the return circuit as it is cooler, heat kills seals and bearings.

Wearb

Henry Gee wrote: »

The pump has a longer life in the return circuit as it is cooler, heat kills seals and bearings.

Thanks for posting but 4 years late

I see its your first post and I hope to see lots more from you in the future. Just for future reference, if you look at the post header you will see the age of the post.

Welcome aboard.