Steady to flush/shot or not

EPointer=Birdss

Well lads what are your thoughts on the subject?

Have had a few incidents already this year that only for the dogs been on the ball i'd have been in a right aul predicament trying to pick up the birds.

Most notably today - So about 4 hrs into a longer walk than normal all the action starts, camera dead, us slowing down & dogs fairly softened by the heavy ground, rush & over grazed fields.
Setter locks oppositite side of ditch, springer in, cock flushes, flies along this double ditch & is looking like he's coming out ot me but swings back out (the fckr! ) & over the approaching ditch.
My shootin buddy clips him going over the ditch, my pointer marked him & bust through the first ditch looking up all the time. The setter lost him in the ditch, no fault of his. So as the pointer goes through the second ditch I wince, grimace & nearly have a heart attack all at once as he dives between 2 strands of barbed wire like somethng out of the opening scene of Casino Royale!! :eek:
He over took a very tired old springer like he wasn't there. The bird dropped in the next field & somehow took off again. Must have been like a shot of adrenilin as there was a distinct gear change in the dog.
He followed him flying poorly for 410 yards before he dropped (we stepped it afterwards), the cock took running but fairly shook & the dog caught the bird another 100 or so on before he got to the next ditch.

Anyway - All this time we stood at the initial ditch watching it unfold. Not a word said. Dog starts the long haul back with the bird visibly shagged but with his prize all the same.

Mate turns to me in a sarcastic tone & says "Jaysus, he wouldn't be much good stopped up looking at us waiting to be sent off!"
A chuckle between us & I took it as a compliment of sorts between buddies.
Bent down, took the bird to hand & gave the dog a big pat on the back. The poor dog he used what he'd left in the tank during the chase so we headed home after over staying our morning shoot welcome.

So on the way home we were debating what happened & the merits of not been steady to flush/ shot & so on with very strong opinions shared.

Few strange things:
1) How he flew on again is beyond me givin he fell to begin with
2) Why the dog didn't pull off the chase when the cock took off as he normally wouldn't bother
3) There were no visible signs of damage

But strange & all as it was - we came away saying only for the dog being on the ball again there was a strong chance we'd have lost the bird, the bird would have potentially suffered more than needed & a frustrating sort of morning would have been topped off by one more event!

Now - Ground game been a different story for obvious reasons. That earlier rabbit for example was self flushed & unfortunate.

vincentf

Hi EP. Your dog must be a few years old now and set in his ways. If he is marking the birds and retrieving which is great for a pointer I don't think it matters now at this stage. I would be more concerned that he was bumping birds before you got up for a shot. The pointer is not a natural retriever,no offence, but before any dog retrieves he has to have the chase in him to want to get to the bird even before he picks up. If you steadied him up you could take away the desire to chase and therefore stop the retrieve. This can happen to young dogs that are steadied too much, the chase is taken out of them and they can stop retrieving.

Alchemist2

Kinda agree with vincent... but there is nothing quiet like watching a fully trained dog in action.. no offence EP, your dog is a cracker and ideal im sure for you, infact most guys if not all here would love to own him im sure:D... but i have often had this debate with guys re steadiness and winged birds... if a dog is worth its salt he will bring them back as long as you hunt him in the general direction where you think the bird went... i often shot and winged birds over my mates setter and when he couldnt locate them we would head home and arrive back an hour maybe more later with the gwp and he would pick them from blind, i aspire to steadiness with my dogs mind you it doesnt always work out but i am trying, i watched a dvd lastnight and there were hares breaking under gsp's and they didnt even look at them as they were hunting feather... fab to watch... i think lots of ppl know whats involved and just couldnt be arsed (maybe it doesnt suit) but they often dis this part of training as their dogs dont have it and im sure we've all heard the familiar mantra from others my dogs savage never pass a bird etc etc

tonytoc11

I was out last Sunday and my cousin hit a cock hard and he came down. He had the gun open and all reloading walking over to pick him up when up he got and flew away. Couldn't believe it.

terminator2

a cracking retrieve ep pity you didnt get it on the hatcam , regarding your dog and hes not on trial btw , your dog is steady , flushes on command , he retrieves to hand , as a roughshooting dog hes one of the best ive seen ....and he doesnt miss much......you are lucky to have him ;)

EPointer=Birdss

Suppose before this desends too far into & around my dog my question was more geared at roughshooting dogs (all breeds) in general. I used today as an example.
Trialing is not in question as this is a completely different kettle of fish.
Anyway i'll answer a few comments thus far.

vincentf wrote: »

Hi EP. Your dog must be a few years old now and set in his ways.

He's brought every single bird back to hand since 11 months old. More of a case of in him that set in ways i'd say. Whiles I've seen plenty of pointers who won't retrieve I always debate the whole 'instinct' thing. As you touched on - I often wonder is it a case of being trained out rather than encouraged in the search for steadiness...

Alchemist2 wrote: »

i often shot and winged birds over my mates setter and when he couldnt locate them we would head home and arrive back an hour maybe more later with the gwp and he would pick them from blind,

That would drive me bananas having to do that.
Would ye not keep a springer on heel instead?
Also you would want a good dog to pick up a running bird blind let alone an hour later. Where I shoot every 2nd field has a 4-6ft drain, a grove, a wall of brambles or unpassable sheepwire fences.
I'm sure a lot of lads roughshooting have the same type of country so that's really what got me thinking - what does everyone else do/need/like...

terminator2 wrote: »

a cracking retrieve ep pity you didnt get it on the hatcam , regarding your dog and hes not on trial btw , your dog is steady , flushes on command , he retrieves to hand , as a roughshooting dog hes one of the best ive seen ....and he doesnt miss much......you are lucky to have him ;)

I'm very happy with what I have & have encouraged & trained him as best I can for what I need. Yet to lose a bird & I've seen plenty lost around me with a lot of 'good dogs' searching...

dicky82

i would have said that stop to shot or flush is only important if you are trialing the dog, clipped game on these days are being watched by shooters and spectators so locating them can be a bit easier. i'm sure we have all heard of stories of clipped birds hiding down rabbit holes and under river banks, holes in trees etc. so if the dog is on the bird asap then all the better.
last year i smacked a cock pheasant and he folded and came down with a thud, when the dog came out after him he ran about twenty feet. couldn't believe it.

charlie10

in the case of a hpr breed ,HE hunts HE pointes HE should retrieve off his own back .my job is to shoot birds its his job to do the rest,dont think he should be sent for the retrieve when he isnt told to hunt or point. hope i said that correctly

EPointer=Birdss

charlie10 wrote: »

in the case of a hpr breed ,HE hunts HE pointes HE should retrieve off his own back .my job is to shoot birds its his job to do the rest,dont think he should be sent for the retrieve when he isnt told to hunt or point. hope i said that correctly

Can't argue with the logic Charlie.

Bar a potential safety aspect I can't see the point of it bar a nice to look at.
Personally I don't see the appeal of it as a nice to look at, shows training & control alright but I'm more into handling in the efforts to find the bird etc When I shoot it I don't wanna run the risk of losing it.

I'm interested in what lads do on here - even the springer men?
Amazed more haven't chipped in with an opinion

Glensman

EPointer=Birdss wrote: »

Can't argue with the logic Charlie.

Bar a potential safety aspect I can't see the point of it bar a nice to look at.
Personally I don't see the appeal of it as a nice to look at, shows training & control alright but I'm more into handling in the efforts to find the bird etc When I shoot it I don't wanna run the risk of losing it.

I'm interested in what lads do on here - even the springer men?
Amazed more haven't chipped in with an opinion

Myself (GSP) an my hunting buddies' dogs (springers) all take off in the direction immediately after the shot.
Some times my GSP doesn't even want to wait for the shot. Personally I like it. I don't want her sitting looking up at me wagging her tail...

meathstevie

It may be the perception in these parts that pointers aren't retrieving dogs but perceptions on the continent are slightly different. The sort of retrieve Glensman was describing is exactly the sort of thing beside a steady point that's expected of pointers and I've seen and heard continental pointer owners talk and boast about.

I've for years accompanied the dad on walk up shoots on the continent, all done with pointers of some description, and whenever a pheasant or any other game for that matter was clipped and disappeared in the distance the dog that took of after it was always given free reign to work away and the shoot went on. If the dog returned and caught up with the shoot twenty minutes to half an hour later with the pheasant or hare or whatever in it's mouth it was considered a good retrieve.

LetFly

Personally, hunting with Springers, and dabbling in a bit of trialling and working tests, I train my dogs to be steady to the flush and shot. Apart from the trialling side of things, the main reason I do it is for the safety of the dog. Once a bird is in the air or a rabbit is bolting from the ditch I want to be able to concentrate 100% on that bird or rabbit to give me the best chance of killing it cleanly. I dont want to be checking out of the corner of my eye for where the dog is. A low flying pheasant flushed from rushes with a dog in hot pursuit means I can't take the shot safely for example. There is also the fact that a dog that drops to the flush is watching that bird and marking it properly. As soon as the bird falls and I send him he has a better chance of making it to the area of the fall I think than a dog that is tearing after a bird and looking at where he is running rather than concentrating on where the bird has fallen.
Apart from all that there is then the satisfaction I get from having a dog trained to the best of my limited ability.

TriggerPL

EPointer=Birdss wrote: »

Can't argue with the logic Charlie.

Bar a potential safety aspect I can't see the point of it bar a nice to look at.
Personally I don't see the appeal of it as a nice to look at, shows training & control alright but I'm more into handling in the efforts to find the bird etc When I shoot it I don't wanna run the risk of losing it.

I'm interested in what lads do on here - even the springer men?
Amazed more haven't chipped in with an opinion

I don't hunt the springer and pointer together , it creates problems ESP when your pointer is on point and you let the springer flush . You pointer will get it into his head , "fook that springer I'm not doing all the work for him to get the fun " and start running in ! Now not saying it going to happen with your old dog with experience ! But with a young dog it will play fook !

The whole safety of your dog breaking to retrieve the bird aside , at 400 yards I'd just be afraid he cross a road or something , better loose a bird then a dog , nice story all the same and gud retrieve .

EPointer=Birdss

TriggerPL wrote: »

I don't hunt the springer and pointer together , it creates problems ESP when your pointer is on point and you let the springer flush . You pointer will get it into his head , "fook that springer I'm not doing all the work for him to get the fun " and start running in ! Now not saying it going to happen with your old dog with experience ! But with a young dog it will play fook !

The whole safety of your dog breaking to retrieve the bird aside , at 400 yards I'd just be afraid he cross a road or something , better loose a bird then a dog , nice story all the same and gud retrieve .

Again not really a question of my dog but what lads do with theirs. Sure I know my own dog & he's trained as he is for a reason.
People must remember at all times I can call off the dog with a pip of the whistle. Furthermore the beauty of an electric collar is no matter how much in the groove the dog is a gentle Zapp can cure that.

My mate works his rock steady setter with a springer without bother. Didn't Start doing so though until the setter haf 4 years done. Works a treat coz he can't budge the setter when locked on.

garyc007

i think both have their merits. manys the time i have been cursing my springer for taking off after one but a few times it has worked to my advantage.today when doing some training with the pointer pup she caught a pheasant in cover but it got away,thankfully the springer was on the ball and took off after it through a forestry, i let her go and a few minutes later she came back with the bird

charlie10

again its all down to the level of training of the dog/dogs. u would see pics from the buccleuch gun dog facebook page and the likes with 6 or 7 dogs sitting down with dummies in their mouths or sitting out a drive all handled by one man/woman. so hunting a pointing dog with springer can be done (even though i wouldnt - horses for courses and all that)if there level of training is sufficent.

midnightfalcon

Myself I like to have the springers steady you can shoot safely you and the dogs can mark the fall of the bird and then be sent to collect. We had an incident on Sunday evening when we flushed a bird from a heavy corner the bird flew out over my partner who was a bit behind and dropped both legs but the bird kept going over the field into the next field that is belong to a sheep farmer that does't like dogs or shooting.We both had good idea were the bird went and knew he was hit hard and more than likely dead so leaving his gun and dogs with me he went and found the bird stone dead on a grass field job done.We didn't know if there was sheep in the field or not but if the dogs had ran after the hit bird and they know when a birds not right it could of caused a lot of trouble for us. I know it was a green field but if it was in cover we would of taken the dogs out and hunted the area works most of the time.As I said I like a steady dog its what i try for in training doesn't always work out that way but I keep trying its what I enjoy.

fitzy_fitzy

As a relative new gun dog man. I can see that there are pros and cons for both.
For me a person who needs to improve his shot. I find if you miss the bird especially snipe the dog will be looking for a bird that is not there. I saw it a couple of times last weekend with the buddies springers.
As least if they are steady to the flush waiting to sent out you won't be waisting time calling them back if no bird drops.
I know experience handlers can give one blow of the whistle and the dog returns.
I recently purchased a starter pistol to train my lab to be steady to the shot.
Hopefully I will have her steady for next year.

EPointer=Birdss

A lot of people seem to think the only way a dog can mark a bird is to sit there & watch it fall.
What do ye think a dog is doing when not steadied? Running in the general direction hoping to find it?
It makes me wonder what type of country ye're shooting. Must be nice open ground. More often than not for me i can't see where the bird lands with a 6 ft plus vantage point.

brianfrancis45

Nice to see such control but for rough shooting I have always felt it's not really necessary and as long as my springer is hunting close, finding game and retrieving it well , that's enough for me ! Also a lot of the ground I shoot is heavy/hard going so having the dog running straight in after the shot and finding the bird quickly has been an advantage as otherwise I have no doubt that some birds , especially strong runners, would have been lost.

Having said that , something happened over the weekend which really did get me thinking again about the pro's of having a dog steady to the flush or dropping to the shot ...... Having such control would have saved me some very anxious moments I can tell you...

I was shooting some new ground near the sea for the first time and hunting down along a ditch with what looked like a wide belt of very heavy brambles/furze behind it and then the sea which seemed to be about 200 yards further out. Suddenly the dog went up a fews gears and within a couple of minutes he flushed a big old rooster about 35 yards out from me which I knocked . I could hear the dog bashing the heavy cover looking for the bird and next thing out of the corner of my eye I saw a sheer rock face about 80 yards back to my right which I had passed by earlier but couldn't see then due to the lie of the land. It was now clear that there was an inlet from the sea there . I feared the dog was headed for a cliff so I started to frantically blow the recall whistle. Although I couldn't see the dog, I could hear him in the cover and thankfully I finally managed to stop him or at least slow him down .... until I quickly climbed over the ditch, broke through the cover towards the dog and kept blowing the whilstle . I was very relieved that I had managed to call the dog off the retrieve and he came to me. Got a lead on him and then I very carefully pushed throug the cover for about another 10 yards , only to come to the edge of a sheer drop of about 150 feet down to the sea.

When I took the shot I had taken note of where the bird dropped and now it was apparent that the bird had dropped straight into the sea. Thank god that the cover was heavy as if the dog had marked that bird dropping , I am convinced he would have run straight out over the edge .

I suppose the moral of the story is that you should know your ground very well before hunting it but in this instance no doubt having the dog drop to shot would also have been a great help ,which made me start to think that it would be better to lose the odd bird than the dog ! Well that's my feeling for now but then again if I had taken the time to get to know the ground/that hazard first (which I should have done) , I wouldn't need the dog to be dropping to the shot, as I wouldn't have hunted that particular place in the first place.

EPointer=Birdss

brianfrancis45 wrote: »

Nice to see such control but for rough shooting I have always felt it's not really necessary and as long as my springer is hunting close, finding game and retrieving it well , that's enough for me ! Also a lot of the ground I shoot is heavy/hard going so having the dog running straight in after the shot and finding the bird quickly has been an advantage as otherwise I have no doubt that some birds , especially strong runners, would have been lost.

Having said that , something happened over the weekend which really did get me thinking again about the pro's of having a dog steady to the flush or dropping to the shot ...... Having such control would have saved me some very anxious moments I can tell you...

I was shooting some new ground near the sea for the first time and hunting down along a ditch with what looked like a wide belt of very heavy brambles/furze behind it and then the sea which seemed to be about 200 yards further out. Suddenly the dog went up a fews gears and within a couple of minutes he flushed a big old rooster about 35 yards out from me which I knocked . I could hear the dog bashing the heavy cover looking for the bird and next thing out of the corner of my eye I saw a sheer rock face about 80 yards back to my right which I had passed by earlier but couldn't see then due to the lie of the land. It was now clear that there was an inlet from the sea there . I feared the dog was headed for a cliff so I started to frantically blow the recall whistle. Although I couldn't see the dog, I could hear him in the cover and thankfully I finally managed to stop him or at least slow him down .... until I quickly climbed over the ditch, broke through the cover towards the dog and kept blowing the whilstle . I was very relieved that I had managed to call the dog off the retrieve and he came to me. Got a lead on him and then I very carefully pushed throug the cover for about another 10 yards , only to come to the edge of a sheer drop of about 150 feet down to the sea.

When I took the shot I had taken note of where the bird dropped and now it was apparent that the bird had dropped straight into the sea. Thank god that the cover was heavy as if the dog had marked that bird dropping , I am convinced he would have run straight out over the edge .

I suppose the moral of the story is that you should know your ground very well before hunting it but in this instance no doubt having the dog drop to shot would also have been a great help ,which made me start to think that it would be better to lose the odd bird than the dog ! Well that's my feeling for now but then again if I had taken the time to get to know the ground/that hazard first (which I should have done) , I wouldn't need the dog to be dropping to the shot, as I wouldn't have hunted that particular place in the first place.

Good story Brian.
I'm thinking the happy medium is been able to reliably call off the dog as required. Basic strong recall. The foundation of every other command.
Best of both worlds in some ways.

Hunting in safe areas away from roads, cliffs ( ) etc goes without saying

Theshooter2012

Birds are strange things their feathers have to be just right to be able to fly properly. Usually if a pheasant is winged sometimes it is just a few feathers knocked out of alignment but it is rare when a pheasant drops he will get up again. (you think of it this way if you fell of a building and survived would you try it again) But under extreme circumstances they will get up again but most likely will not get too far unless he starts at a height and glides.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0M2E4Ncdco one of your videos i believe with a similar description.

brianfrancis45

EPointer=Birdss wrote: »

Good story Brian.
I'm thinking the happy medium is been able to reliably call off the dog as required. Basic strong recall. The foundation of every other command.
Best of both worlds in some ways.

Hunting in safe areas away from roads, cliffs ( ) etc goes without saying

Your right there EPointer, strong and consistent recall is the most important command of the lot. My springer is usually on the button with the recall , apart from when he is hunting up the a*se of of a running rabbit or bird - at such times he can be known to go 'deaf ' . Thank god he didn't act the maggot last Sunday by testing me , which lets face it any dog can do from time to time.

I remember looking at one of your vids where a hare pops up in front of your pointer and you called him off - very impressive indeed and I doubt (let's be truthful here - I know) my springer would have been thinkin
''shove your whistle up your h*le old man, that big bunny is mine ! '' I'm convinced I only managed to call him off the other day because of the combination of him having lost sight/scent of the bird (which had gone over the edge of the cliff) and me bashing his ear drums both with the whistle and calling him back in a very gruff and panicked voice. Felt a bit of a plonker really that I hadn't checked the ground first , which would have avoided all the trouble. The whole thing must have been quite confusing for the dog who came to me looking a bit sheepish as he had done what was expected of him i.e. find/flush the bird and go to retrieve it when shot ,and all he got in return was a lot of loud whistle and panicked calling.

LetFly

That was an excellent example Brian. Thanks for sharing it.
I think also that people seem to think that a dog who is trained to sit to the flush is left sitting for 5 minutes after the bird is shot. The dog is sent straight away as soon as the bird is shot. If the bird is heading to fall into heavy cover or looks like it is not 100% dead in the air then I send the dog immediately for the retrieve and he is there very quickly....not that far behind a dog that has run in with the flush.
The safety part of it though can't be overstated. A bird can run across a roadway or the far side of a barbed wire fence etc which can have dire consequences on a dog that is in full pursuit of a running cock pheasant.
As Brian has said i would rather loose the bird than the dog in those circumstances.

Username Exists.

My dog is after the bird straight away, not by training or design. I prefer it that way and never trained the dog to wait on a flushed bird.
The ground I shoot is all tillage farm with large deep heavy ditches. I like the dog to be on the bird as quick as possible, it's easier for a bird to run through tight cover than the dog.
The downside as mentioned here is the safety aspect, there is a danger with low flying birds and bolting rabbits but if you stay aware of whats going on it's workable. I've let birds go before and many rabbits and they'll be there again.
I also use an E-collar, if the worst comes to the worst I can stop the dog, although I rarely need to use it. It is also a great deterrent for chasing hares.

As for birds being shot and flying away again nothing surprises me with pheasants. I am constantly amazed by them but not surprised any more. They are a superior game bird. I have seen one shot hard by my father into a clump, we had a setter which didn't retrieve, he put his hand down to pick up the bird and up it flew and away. He was too close to get another shot and I was only young. I have seen birds go down rabbit holes and climp into a rotten tree.
This sounds unbelievable but truly I shot a pheasant dead, put him in the bag and walked about 100 yards to cross a river, half way across the bird came to life and jumped out of the bag. Only into the river and I picked it up but I swear that bird was dead. If someone told me that I wouldn't believe them.
One local tells a story of a bird he shot by the sea which made it to the shore and paddled with one wing out to sea.