Aer Lingus Industrial Action/Pension Dispute

faceman

What's people's views on this issue at this stage? It seems there was no breakthrough in today's talks. I've an upcoming long byhaul "chance of a lifetime" holiday coming up so I'm "biting my nails to the nub" in anticipation of a resolution!

coylemj

Ingrid Miley in RTE is on the case, better to follow the news on the radio than rely on boardsies if I was you. Looks like a two hour stoppage is going ahead next week.

Turbine

Already been discussed at length in another topic: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056716421&page=6

The issue now seems to be the fact that Aer Lingus are asking for productivity changes in return for a 66% of final salaries offer for pensions. Hopefully management and the unions come to agreement sooner rather than later, because this continuous threat of strike action can only be damaging bookings which at the end of the day are what drives profit and retains jobs. But then again, I'm sure SIPTU would happily see the airline shut down just to get what they want.

Stovepipe

Hi there
SIPTU don't want to see the airline close down, you fool. They want to sustain jobs in this difficult time and when some EI manager gets it into his head that the best time to try and drag more productivity out of a scared workforce, who are staring a grossly reduced pension in the face, is now, they have to react. The Company is under continuous threat from Ryanair and the last thing we need is our own well-paid, well-pensioned management stabbing us in the back, especially when the Company has Eu900M in the bank, earned by our hard work. The Company have already given more to the pilots' pension fund (smaller people count but vastly richer fund) (Eu 175M) than they gave us non-pilots (Eu100M,for which we gave the Greenfield concessions, among which, a four year pay freeze), so we are already down Eu75M, which is only 10% of the shortfall. I'm to retire in 20 years and SIPTU reckon I'll get 11% of my pension. Do you really wonder why we are fighting?
regards
Stovepipe

basill

Errr....When did the company do anything about the pilots pension fund?

Us pilots upped our contribution rate voluntarily to 11% as well as working another 5 years to retirement. That closed the gap somewhat on our deficit and following a detailed risk analysis it was decided to be more conservative in where the investments are made. All of the above have helped somewhat to close the gap and as the market picks up over the next few years hopefully it will be in not to bad a shape.

Bessarion

On a related note the most recent EI financial statements say that they have overachieved on the annual savings target set in the Greenfield plan. (E100M+ rather than the original E97M target)
In the Full year results for 2011 it was indicated that the CEO and the CFO were entitled to a bonus of 120% and 110% of salary respectively. Both gentlemen deferred 1/3 of their bonus in 2011. It will be interesting to see ow many senior managers in EI do quite well out of this 'over achievement' in the 2012 Full Year Results.

(Possibly the only time in history that EI mgmt have overachieved anything.....WiFi installation running 10+ months behind the original timetable)

rugbyman

Stovepipe,
My late father suggested to me that I should never call anybody a fool as I could not assume that I was not one myself.

Turbine, said

I'm sure SIPTU would happily see the airline shut down just to get what they want.

Unfortunately i have to agree.
I have seen cases where unions fought for the size of redunancy payments rather that the continued existence of an industry.
This has been explained to me that unions fight for their existing members rather than future ones.
In the case of the airport ,Siptu can be reasonably sure it will always exist, so can push a bit.

By the way ,am I reading that right , pensions of 66% of final salary. Surely this must be a typo ,as this is higher than the already too high public servants. Maybe i am way out on this.

Regards rugbyman

Stovepipe

@basill, the company is on record as saying that it gave Eu175M to the pilots and Eu100M to the IASS. @rugbyman, do you really think any union would allow a workforce of 3500 to go to the wall, just to score points? I'm no SIPTU fan but even they aren't that deranged. SIPTU are as afraid as we are of O'Leary, whom we regard as the greater threat. If he gets in, Aer Lingus as we know it will cease to exist and what little remains of my pension will evaporate. Aer Lingus is under pressure from shareholders for a dividend and may yet have to give millions to O'leary and O'Brien....Another point too is the ageing workforce. In my section alone, probably a quarter are within ten years of retirement and another quarter within 15 years, so they have real fears of an impoverished old age. The pension figure has always been 40/60ths, provided one did the full forty.
regards
Stovepipe

dubdaymo

Stovepipe wrote: »

do you really think any union would allow a workforce of 3500 to go to the wall, just to score points?

Yes, you must not have studied the history of trade unionism over the past 50 years but I'm not about to give you any lessons

SIPTU are as afraid as we are of O'Leary, whom we regard as the greater threat.

Yet they keep creating situations where loyal EI customers are continuously faced with strike threats and are forced to book with the "arch-enemy" not to mention the Company having to hire in FR aircraft and crews to do the jobs their own staff are refusing to do.

If he gets in, Aer Lingus as we know it will cease to exist

Maybe not being "as we know it" would be a good thing as this constant troublemaking can't be doing it any good.

Stovepipe

Hi there
If you think Aer Lingus is some kind of hotbed of union militancy, you couldn't be further from the truth. We (certainly in our section) are not spending our days assembling placards and booking our place on the roundabout to wave placards. I can't remember the last time I actually saw a SIPTU person and our shop steward spends his time fending off stupid roster changes and other management ineptitudes, than cajoling us to man the picket line. Some union guy giving Ingrid Miley off the cuff soundbites is not the same as actual union-mandated action. If we do carry out a two-hour stoppage, then what is most likely to happen is that it will occur when it is least likely to do harm to the schedule, which will suffer a mild inconvenience. If we really intended to do harm, then we would strike at the first "push" in the morning, at 6am, because that would ruin the whole day's schedule (which would really give the Company a major headache). remember, EI employees got burned in industrial action before and are in no hurry to man the picket lines. All of this is just opening noises.
regards
Stovepipe

Bessarion

rugbyman wrote: »

......By the way ,am I reading that right , pensions of 66% of final salary. Surely this must be a typo ,as this is higher than the already too high public servants. Maybe i am way out on this.....

You are reading this wrong (easily done) the pension fund is currently underfunded (due to the nature of the current economic situation) so if it is closed in the morning existing pensioners are protected while current workers have to share what is left.In the worse case this could be 10% of what they are owed.

The DAA have (apparently) stated they will inject cash to ensure current workers are able to get 66% of previously agreed pension, EI have stated they will do the same.....however EI are using this as an opportunity to get an indefinite pay freeze and a productivity increase from their workers. So while the DAA are willing to contribute to assist their staff EI want the staff to pretty much fund their own pension shortfall.

Please keep in mind that EI forced all employees to join this pension scheme over the years,it was a condition of their contracts. Now they are washing their hands of the problem. They have recently tried to reduce their cash reserves through creative accounting in other to be able to claim that the company is unable to inject cash into the pension scheme. As an Irish judge recently said "EI may not have a legal obligation in this matter but they certainly have a moral obligation"

http://griffinsrealm.wordpress.com/2012/11/01/aer-lingus-your-pension-or-your-dividend/

dubdaymo

Brilliant article in yesterdays Herald;
http://www.herald.ie/news/aer-lingus-passengers-should-brace-for-a-bumpy-ride-this-christmas-3292062.html

steve-o

Stovepipe wrote: »

especially when the Company has Eu900M in the bank, earned by our hard work.

I have to call you out on that BS. Aer Lingus has never made money in its entire life (the odd profitable year has always been offset by losses in other years). Any money in the bank was put there by the government and by shareholders during the privatisation process.

A319er

Off again, but lets face it damage done , maybe thats the union plan....

Have to take exception to Aer Lingus not making money comment....

3rd year in a row 2013 that it will be profitable,,,, only a handful of airlines around can say that ....and the list does not include AF KLM SAS IB WX BE etc etc

dubdaymo

Let the game begin. Could be a thriller.

Beards threaten strike. Passengers go elsewhere to book

Beard City 1 EI Utd 0

Beards declare strike. More passengers go elsewhere to book

Beard City 2 EI Utd 0

Beards refuse to listen to reason. Even more passengers go elsewhere to book

Beard City 3 EI Utd 0

Beards realise they've boobed and deploy "seek clarification" technique to get out of jail

Beard City 3 EI Utd 1

Beards convene sham meeting and agree to call off strike

Beard City 3 EI Utd 2

Game continues................results to follow.

Tenger

steve-o wrote: »

I have to call you out on that BS. Aer Lingus has never made money in its entire life ........Any money in the bank was put there by the government and by shareholders during the privatisation process.

So those financial figures presented to the stock exchange are all lies?
...better call the cops as a listed company cannot lie about its cash reserves and financial status.

P.S. shareholder buy shares in the expectation of dividends and/or selling at a higher price to make profit. Shareholders do not as a rule inject money into a listed company.

L1011

steve-o wrote: »

I have to call you out on that BS. Aer Lingus has never made money in its entire life (the odd profitable year has always been offset by losses in other years). Any money in the bank was put there by the government and by shareholders during the privatisation process.

Utterly incorrect. You may want to stop believing false info spoonfed to the press by another airline's CEO....

You may also want to read up on EI's extensive hotel operation that they sold for rather a bucketload, amongst other highly profitable activities they had in the past. This is where the cash pile comes from.

sailing

MYOB wrote: »

Utterly incorrect. You may want to stop believing false info spoonfed to the press by another airline's CEO....

You may also want to read up on EI's extensive hotel operation that they sold for rather a bucketload, amongst other highly profitable activities they had in the past. This is where the cash pile comes from.

Aer Lingus apparantly set up a number of subsidiaries in the past alongside the airline. One of these was the Tara group of hotels. A quick google search shows they sold the Tara Hotel in London alone in the nineties for well over 200 million sterling.

rugbyman

Thank you Sailing, perhaps you could add in a figure

they sold the Tara Hotel in London alone in the nineties for well over 200 million sterling ,booking a profit of ?????


info seeking, not tying to catch you out

Rugbyman

sailing

rugbyman wrote: »

Thank you Sailing, perhaps you could add in a figure

they sold the Tara Hotel in London alone in the nineties for well over 200 million sterling ,booking a profit of ?????


info seeking, not tying to catch you out

Rugbyman

If google can be believed then it says 215 million sterling in the mid nineties.

rugbyman

yes but what profit did they make on that transaction, from buying or building the hotels to selling them.

info seeking, not tying to catch you out
Rugbyman

steve-o

Cash in the bank can come from various sources, but in Aer Lingus it's not from accumulated profits. Moderate profits over the past 2 or 3 years don't make up for the preceding losses (€240m net losses in 2008 and 2009 for example), and aren't a significant source of the cash in the bank. €500m alone was raised by selling new shares in 2006. Much of the rest is offset by short term loans. The idea that the workers created that €900m is nonsense, even if the employees have helped make to make it into a competitive company. Sorry to bore you with facts, but the Aer Lingus annual reports are freely available on their website. Glad the strike is off.