[Report] Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) – Core Dublin Network - NTA

Victor

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/projects-schemes/transport-projects/bus-rapid-transit-brt/

Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) – Core Dublin Network

Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) has emerged in recent years as an effective, cost efficient and high quality public transport system. The National Transport Authority therefore had an interest in exploring the concept further, and determining how it could apply in our capital city.

The “Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) – Core Dublin Network” report below, describes and defines a system concept for BRT in the Dublin context. The system concept was defined based on the examination and assessment of the typical components and features that make up a BRT system.

The report also describes the feasibility study that was carried out on in relation to a proposed core BRT network for Dublin. It identifies a core network comprising of two cross-city BRT corridors: (i) Blanchardstown to UCD; and (ii) Clongriffin to Tallaght.

It concludes that the two identified corridors have a significant transport demand commensurate with a BRT system and are appropriate for development as the core BRT network for the city. It also recommends that further detailed planning work should proceed in relation to these corridors.

Planning and design work in relation to these two corridors is currently on-going.

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Bus-Rapid-Transit-Core-Network-report.pdf

monument

Was a Lucan route not suposed to be included in the study?

LXFlyer

I think you should read the report.

Cool Mo D

I like the way the map routes the Blanchardstown - N11 route via Clanbrassil Street and Kevin street, wide streets with few/no current routes, and gets away from the overcrowded O'Connell - St. Stephen's Green route, which will be especially affected by Luas BXD

CIE

lxflyer wrote: »

I think you should read the report

The QBCs were supposed to be Ireland's BRT way back in the 1990s. 74 pages makes many default to the old saw "tl;dr", and many others would be suspicious of a potentially biased report.

Some of us are a bit tired of government talking followed by inaction (after all, electrification of Dublin suburban rail was talked about a half-century ago and an average of twenty years before it was actually done, and even electrification of the Dublin-Cork railway line was talked about back then). After decades of hearing the same old talk, it does get grating.

And on top of all this, it's ironic that BRT is being promulgated yet again in the face of refusal to proceed with stuff like an underground railway system (not necessarily the last incarnation of the "Dublin Metro"), which would be far more rapid, higher-volume and never get caught in traffic jams (to wit, they suddenly found money for the BRT versus the other modes).

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

I think you should read the report.

Have been waiting for this report for some time now, so I intend to start reading it the first chance I get.

But due to work amd other things long planned, it's unlikely much headway will be made before Sunday. However I asked as people on here can be very helpfull in filling in key points in the meanwhile.

Anyway on to reading while I have a short bit of time...

LXFlyer

Monument - I wasn't trying to be facetious, but there is a whole section on the route selection in the report and I couldn't even begin to give it justice in a post here.

If it's any help - go to page 29 and onwards.

monument

Some comments, some maybe about the scope of the report as much as the report it self.

Lucan route was dismissed from the scope of the report due to the postponed Lucan Luas... Not too strange given the RPA wrote the report.

The report is a bit disappointing in ways.

It's very dissipoining in how it does not at all deal with sample route selection in any detail -- even just an overview of a sample section of a sample route showing how or if BRT can work. To be clear: I think high quality BRT can work, but it's at this point which the NTA needs to be honest what is needed (major changes to road layout, mass and 24 hour removal or relocation of parking and loading).

I did not expect it to solve the cyclist, taxi, parking and loading issues but how little the covered these things is worrying.

Not pushing central running (centre of road running with single or more normal traffic lanes put to where current bus lanes are) as the standard is also highly disappointing. Marking central running as a negitave for pedestrian is wrong as it is not always the case -- Nantes is a prime example of this, where the BRT lanes and stops allow for easier crossing of roads.

I also suspect that higher capacity BRT is possable on some routes but this may be too radical for Dublin.

Only looking at the N11 route to UCD is bizarre given that if you're taking more space away further in, then you should be serving as far out as possable with a mix of direct service, shuttles and park and ride. I could be wrong but UCD seems too close to the city centre for that. Also no mention of park and ride which is a key park of the Nantes BRT line.

Overall the report makes me a lot less optimistic about BRT going ahead anytime soon.

dermo88

Its a cheap excuse, just like the 1980's. Ireland, the country where you pay twice as much for half the service at one quarter of whats needed. Buses are uncomfortable things compared to Luas.

I can excuse the recession. But in the boom period, it could and should have been done. The only way things can be changed is to block the Garda escorted cars of Government Ministers and senior civil servants at every turn, and when their lives and the lives of the elite are being constantly disrupted and made uncomfortable and inconvenient, things get done.

Thats the only way I am afraid. Refuse to pay fines, and the rest.

dRNk SAnTA

I'm not 100% convinced by BRT, but I have an open mind about it.

My thoughts:
- One of the best Irish transport reports I've read in a long time, detailed yet very accessible.

- I think it could potentially be very good for Dublin City Centre because it is going to route passengers away from the O'Connell St - College Green axis. This could help some areas attract much needed development.

- I would be against creating ANOTHER public transport brand in Dublin. Call it Dublin Bus, or Luas, Or DART, but not a fourth brand.

- When I saw all of the bus routes going to Stephens Green, I immediately thought of Martin Cullen's "Grand Central station" analogy. If in 50 years time we have a Luas line, Metro Line, Dart Underground, and 2/3 BRT lines going to Stephens green, it will be a fairly massive transport hub.

dublinbusdude

Bad Idea for routes to Tallaght, why not two different routes!!

monument

dublinbusdude wrote: »

Bad Idea for routes to Tallaght, why not two different routes!!

What?

dublinbusdude

My idea is for the 2 routes are:

Route from Swords to Tallaght via City Centre, Crumlin, Greenhills, IT Tallaght & The Square

Route from Clongriffin to Tallaght via City Centre, Rathmines, Rathfarnham, Firhouse, Oldbawn (Aylesbury too) & The Square

LXFlyer

The route through Rathmines can barely cope with half a QBC let alone BRT.

Victor

While you couldn't do BRT, you could do full-service QBCs via Rathmines and Harold's Cross.

Both would need hundred of CPOs on front gardens, but Harold's Cross would only need about a dozen buildings demolished on the Terenure-Grand Canal section and a few more at Clanbrassil Street. The Rathmines-Terenure route would require demolition or substantial alteration to about 35-45 buildings - admittedly quite a few of them the cheap and nasty shop fronts built in the gardens of the Victorian terraces and are in dire need of some precinct improvement. The problems with the front gardens is that many of the properties are listed and the sheer number of people affected. Not for the faint hearted.

The real problems are at Swan Centre-Rathmines Garda Station, Rathgar, Terenure and similar pinch points. Removing those would immensely improve the current offering.

Whither to have inbound buses on one road and outbound buses on the other.

dublinbusdude

What about having its 2 ways

From City Centre coming from Clongriffin: Terenure, Templeogue, Ballycullen, Oldbawn (Aylesbury), The Square

Heading to Clongriffin: The Square, Oldbawn (Aylesbury), Ballycullen, Scholarstown Road, Rathfarnham Village (Castle), Rathgar, Rathmines

LXFlyer

Victor wrote: »

While you couldn't do BRT, you could do full-service QBCs via Rathmines and Harold's Cross.

Both would need hundred of CPOs on front gardens, but Harold's Cross would only need about a dozen buildings demolished on the Terenure-Grand Canal section and a few more at Clanbrassil Street. The Rathmines-Terenure route would require demolition or substantial alteration to about 35-45 buildings - admittedly quite a few of them the cheap and nasty shop fronts built in the gardens of the Victorian terraces and are in dire need of some precinct improvement. The problems with the front gardens is that many of the properties are listed and the sheer number of people affected. Not for the faint hearted.

The real problems are at Swan Centre-Rathmines Garda Station, Rathgar, Terenure and similar pinch points. Removing those would immensely improve the current offering.

Whither to have inbound buses on one road and outbound buses on the other.

No disrespect Victor but your CPO and demolition plans are cloud cuckoo land (I'm being nice) as you are basically advocating destroying the villages as they are.

That frankly is never going to happen.

I don't think having inbound and outbound buses taking completely separate routes would work either as people need to get to and from places all along the routes. Forcing to walk a longer distance would not be a solution.

thomasj

I'll be curious to see how they are going to sort out the old cabra road and Prussia street.

Without having to divert traffic it's not going to work.

OssianSmyth

RPA is probably looking for projects in the 200-300m range now that the government has indicated it will not fund projects in the 2bn-3bn range like Metro North and DART underground.

The report suggests very high benefit-cost ratios but I find them hard to believe as the predicted costs seem high and the likely benefits compared to existing are limited. Take the UCD-Blanch BRT. What do we get for our quarter billion?

Effectively this is a quicker, more reliable 39A. There will be bendy buses, longer raised bus stops, on-street ticket machines, bikes and taxis banned from the bus lane. But there will still be bottleneck shared running with traffic where the streets are too narrow for bus lanes such as the North end of Manor St.

All these things should be done, but the price seems steep. Ultimately the capacity and attractiveness of a bus service will always be limited and a 30yr public transport vision for the capital based on buses is backward and sad.

This report by Colm McCarthy in 1978 lays out the "cars and buses" vision for Dublin that we pursued for the past 30yrs and now look set to follow for the next 30yrs. http://www.tara.tcd.ie/bitstream/2262/7898/1/jssisiVolXXIVPartI_4190.pdf

His arguments are eerily familiar.

Colm McCarthy wrote:

...Turning to public transport, which suffers from stagnant or declining market shares, it is evident that its future is almost the reverse of that of the motor car...

...There is always likely to be a minority in the community, namely, the young, the old and the poor, without cars available to them. Public transport will always be required to cater for such people...

...promote the role of bus lanes and bus priority schemes along radial and circumferential routes....

...develop for Dublin whichever of the less expensive alternatives to the rail rapid transit system most adequately meets the needs of the travelling public...

Carawaystick

I haven't bothered reading the report, can anyone who has tell me what new and different fare scheme are they proposing to be incompatible with the existing ones on busses, trams and trains? They surely have that nailed down, one of their core competencies.

monument

Victor wrote: »

While you couldn't do BRT, you could do full-service QBCs via Rathmines and Harold's Cross.

You could do BRT, it's possible. Although it would require a bit of traffic redirecting and disruption.

You would not do more than one route in the Rathmines and Harold's Cross area.

OssianSmyth wrote: »

Effectively this is a quicker, more reliable 39A.

Quicker, more reliable, higher capacity and overall more attractive.

OssianSmyth wrote: »

But there will still be bottleneck shared running with traffic where the streets are too narrow for bus lanes such as the North end of Manor St.

No route options have been selected yet.

If that route was chosen, all put the tip of Manor Street would not be a problem, we're mainly talking about Prussia Street.

A possible solution would be to make at least part of Prussia Street and Aughrim Street a one-way system (one BRT and one traffic lane min). Through traffic would be removed fully or limited from Manor Street (Through traffic from Navan Road / NCR would be pushed elsewhere -- elsewhere includes modal share change).

Another solution could be making Prussia Street at least mostly BRT and limited access only -- the top bit into Tesco etc could be kept two-way. Flows on Aughrim Street in the meanwhile could be improved by sorting out parking arrangements.

IF I was overlord, I'd forget about such a route and revisit the Phoenix Park. BRT buses could address some of the concerns of ABP.

OssianSmyth wrote: »

All these things should be done, but the price seems steep. Ultimately the capacity and attractiveness of a bus service will always be limited and a 30yr public transport vision for the capital based on buses is backward and sad.

BRT isn't 'a bus service'. BRT isn't directly comparable to conventional buses.

If Dublin is ready to give buses BRT-like priority is the big question and the answer sadly sides towards no.

monument

The stop names (Mount Argus, Poddle) on the Clongriffin to Tallaght map backs up the idea that they are looking at this route between Harold's Cross and Tallaght: https://maps.google.com/maps?q=https:%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fuc%3Fid%3D0BwIdsJjaQg_yM2I4MWY3YjMtNzA4OS00YWNhLTg3MTItODQ2MDZiY2Q3YzE2%26export%3Ddownload%26hl%3Den&hl=en&ll=53.309237,-6.311474&spn=0.056925,0.169086&sll=53.324209,-6.276627&sspn=0.053931,0.187283&t=k&z=13

As mapped out by Cathaoirleach, and discused in this thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056194528

It's in the NTA's 2030 vision.

dublinbusdude

monument wrote: »

The stop names (Mount Argus, Poddle) on the Clongriffin to Tallaght map backs up the idea that they are looking at this route between Harold's Cross and Tallaght: https://maps.google.com/maps?q=https:%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fuc%3Fid%3D0BwIdsJjaQg_yM2I4MWY3YjMtNzA4OS00YWNhLTg3MTItODQ2MDZiY2Q3YzE2%26export%3Ddownload%26hl%3Den&hl=en&ll=53.309237,-6.311474&spn=0.056925,0.169086&sll=53.324209,-6.276627&sspn=0.053931,0.187283&t=k&z=13

Like your Google Map for it

cgcsb

Bump. Anyone know have any update? public consultation has been over a while now and haven't heard anything. Or is the election over?

LXFlyer

You're not going to hear anything for several months other than an analysis of the submissions.

The next step will be to produce detailed plans and that's not due until October/November.