Rugby v Soccer (Honest Question)

ThirdMan

I'm a soccer fan, but I'm becoming increasingly frustrated with some aspects of the game. That includes the lack of transparency in how games are officiated, the 'gamesmanship' (diving, feigning injury, etc), and the general hysteria and nonsense that surrounds the sport. I mostly follow the English and Spanish top divisions, and they're like circuses at times. There is very little respect within the game: fans giving each other death, managers down each others throats and players trying to get each other booked or sent off. And the media seem to scrutinise every minor issue so that even the most trivial story receives rolling coverage on Sky Sports News. Obviously it's not all bad. In fact, it's a wonderful sport, but it's carrying a lot of 'emotional baggage'.

Anyway. I've been watching more and more rugby over the past 18 months, and while I can't yet claim to be a proper enthusiast, I am nonetheless becoming increasingly fascinated with it. In fact, my soccer pals are sick of me going on about it. But am I viewing it through rose tinted glasses? To me it seems to be played with the upmost respect, there is a high degree of transparency in decision making and the there is no trying to deceive the officials. Also, the media coverage all seems to be proportionate and sensible. This is no joke, that's honestly how I view rugby.

But am I wrong? Is there a dark underbelly to the sport that I'm blissfully unaware of?

Thanks.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Every sport has its scandals and bad eggs but in Rugby its very much in the minority.

There are players that have a reputation for constant borderline high tackles and there was bloodgate a few years ago but its a minority

Otacon

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Every sport has its scandals and bad eggs but in Rugby its very much in the minority.

There are players that have a reputation for constant borderline high tackles and there was bloodgate a few years ago but its a minority

+1

Every sport has its negative side, but the levels of respect and general comradeship in rugby does seem to be higher.

I also like the sport's general acceptance that it isn't perfect. There are new laws trialed every so often to make it better. Football's 'beautiful game' motto seems to be a shield used to enforce conservatism within the game and stop changes, like goal-line technology.

Tim Robbins

ThirdMan wrote: »

I'm a soccer fan, but I'm becoming increasingly frustrated with some aspects of the game. That includes the lack of transparency in how games are officiated, the 'gamesmanship' (diving, feigning injury, etc), and the general hysteria and nonsense that surrounds the sport. I mostly follow the English and Spanish top divisions, and they're like circuses at times. There is very little respect within the game: fans giving each other death, managers down each others throats and players trying to get each other booked or sent off. And the media seem to scrutinise every minor issue so that even the most trivial story receives rolling coverage on Sky Sports News. Obviously it's not all bad. In fact, it's a wonderful sport, but it's carrying a lot of 'emotional baggage'.

Anyway. I've been watching more and more rugby over the past 18 months, and while I can't yet claim to be a proper enthusiast, I am nonetheless becoming increasingly fascinated with it. In fact, my soccer pals are sick of me going on about it. But am I viewing it through rose tinted glasses? To me it seems to be played with the upmost respect, there is a high degree of transparency in decision making and the there is no trying to deceive the officials. Also, the media coverage all seems to be proportionate and sensible. This is no joke, that's honestly how I view rugby.

But am I wrong? Is there a dark underbelly to the sport that I'm blissfully unaware of?

Thanks.

At the lower levels it is not played with the utmost respect. Player back chat a lot and you would want a bit a of sense of humour sometimes.

At the higher levels players show respect but are usually trying to cheat and push the boundaries of the law. There is a skill in this. If you can slow the ball or scrummage illegally and get away with it - you will do it. But a top class player who is doing this (and they all do) is not going to draw attention to himself b acting like a muppet. There's an art to the cheating.

In addition, giving away a penalty for back chat could be the difference between your team winning and losing; between you getting your position on the team and not. There's a price to pay. And the higher level when margins are thin, it matters more.

CIARAN_BOYLE

One of the greatest lines issued by a referee

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YUF9LSXAkY

Wexfordboy89

pretty much the same as myself been getting more and watching more rugby over the last 18 months myself watch all the rabo games that are on and HC games watch the odd AP and Top14 game to.the money is one thing the p***es me off about footie players getting 100k nani is one player that comes to mind wants 130k but the club wont give it to him.now i know some rugby player are well payed but the majority are what on less than 100k a year for a sport the is more physically demanding and the chances of a career ending injury more great dont think rugby players get the coverage they should in main stream media that they should.

Rob

Jawgap

the big 'philosophical' difference between rugby and soccer or GAA is that the ref manages the game and controls the teams - the captains control the players.

If a rugby ref has to control a player it tends not to work out very well for the player.

In soccer / GAA officials are expected to control the players and so get 'blamed' for certain aspects of player behaviour.

Also in rugby, the large and varied availability of 'team' punishments (10m, reversed penalties, upgrading scrums, sin binning etc) tends to encourage teams to rein in their more mouthy, ill disciplined members.

there is also a culture of what goes on, on the pitch stays on the pitch (at least until the next time you're on the pitch:))

Saying that, rugby is not perfect by any means but I prefer it to the other team sports and despair when you see aspects of soccer especially creeping into it.

stephen_n

Unfortunately with money comes cheating and rugby is no exception to this. Lazy running is almost becoming an art form in itself and the refs seem to do nothing about it, very annoying to watch.

Taco Corp

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

One of the greatest lines issued by a referee

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YUF9LSXAkY

And here's another classic Nigel Owens moment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvhhd36fxPw&feature=related

Jawgap

While we're doing ref quotes.....

Alain Rolland: "There are a few players on your team appealing and questioning my decisions"

"Which ones?"

Alain Rolland: "Start at 9 and and work your way out"

Teferi

The Nigel Owens examples are terrible. He is awful attention seeking eejit sometimes.

Jawgap

Teferi wrote: »

The Nigel Owens examples are terrible. He is awful attention seeking eejit sometimes.

Jeeez, it's not like he goes around accusing players of monkeying around, you Spanish tw@t

Cienciano

Soccer gets so much coverage that every decision is under the microscope, that's the reason you hear so much about it. Ignore most of the coverage and you'll be happier! I don't have as much time these days, I turn a game on at kick off and turn it off at the final whistle.

I always had soccer way ahead of rugby for years (as a sport I liked to look at) but to be honest, I think I prefer to watch a rugby match now. The diving is a turn off in soccer, the biggest turn off in rugby is the referee. The laws are so complex that he can easily decide a game. It's almost at the stage where every losing team can blame the ref being against them.

Winters

Money being one but another reason for the differences between Rugby and Soccer is class and education.

The majority of top level soccer players leave school at the age of 15 or so to concentrate on football. They come mostly from a working class background and have no third level education. In rugby it is common for top players and referees to come from middle to upper class backgrounds, to play rugby in private schools and to progress to third level education. The % of rugby players with degrees is probably equal to the % of soccer players without.

This is just my observation from playing the two codes while growing up and of course there will be exceptions.

ThirdMan

Winters wrote: »

Money being one but another reason for the differences between Rugby and Soccer is class and education.

The majority of top level soccer players leave school at the age of 15 or so to concentrate on football. They come mostly from a working class background and have no third level education. In rugby it is common for top players and referees to come from middle to upper class backgrounds, to play rugby in private schools and to progress to third level education. The % of rugby players with degrees is probably equal to the % of soccer players without.

This is just my observation from playing the two codes while growing up and of course there will be exceptions.

Being working class, or not having a third level education, doesn't mean you can't play sport in an honourable fashion, or that you're in some way predisposed to breaking the rules. I know the issue you'e getting at, and you're right to point out the disparity in wealth and education between the two sports, but you're quite ignorant in your conclusion.

Cienciano

ThirdMan wrote: »

Being working class, or not having a third level education, doesn't mean you can't play sport in an honourable fashion, or that you're in some way predisposed to breaking the rules. I know the issue you'e getting at, and you're right to point out the disparity in wealth and education between the two sports, but you're quite ignorant in your conclusion.

OK, it's a generalisation, but it's not that bad of one to make if you're being honest. Take a trip out on the luas red line, and the luas green like. Which one will you have a greater chance of encountering a scumbag on?
Having said that, rugby players cheat, but just cheat in different ways. You'll see a lot more punches on a a top level rugby field than on a top level soccer field.

(I live on the red line btw )

Sinbad_NI

Personally I loved both when young but the diving in soccer just makes me sick now to be perfectly honest, really hate it.

ThirdMan

ThirdMan wrote: »

Being working class, or not having a third level education, doesn't mean you can't play sport in an honourable fashion, or that you're in some way predisposed to breaking the rules. I know the issue you'e getting at, and you're right to point out the disparity in wealth and education between the two sports, but you're quite ignorant in your conclusion.

Finishing school and going to college requires a certain degree of maturity. Especially college where attendance really comes down to your own discipline. I think this is what the previous poster was alluding too and I agree.

As for class, I don't think it matters - arseholes everywhere to be honest.

I think footballers are simply spoilt and living in a bubble of self importance. Don't watch games and doubt I will ever start. Rugby has its flaws, and plenty of bad behavior but for the most part the attitudes are professional and workmanlike.

bamboozle

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

Personally I loved both when young but the diving in soccer just makes me sick now to be perfectly honest, really hate it.

similar to myself, even GAA has turned into a cynical game of jersey tugging, fouling to prevent points, players wriggling around on the ground.

my favourite difference between rugby and soccer is in rugby if you get nailed by a hard tackle you do you best to get straight up and have your opponent think you're indestructable. in soccer there are pansy's rolling around the pitch at every opportunity.

Nani's response to Carragher's foul last season was the nail in the coffin for me, ok he got a cut on his shin, but when he saw carragher wasnt getting sent off he gets up off the ground, stands in front of ref points at his cut and catapults himself onto the ground again in pain - numpty.

there are players playing league 1 and league 2 in england most of us have never heard of earning more than half the Irish & SA players who line out on Sat.

ThirdMan

Cienciano wrote: »

OK, it's a generalisation, but it's not that bad of one to make if you're being honest. Take a trip out on the luas red line, and the luas green like. Which one will you have a greater chance of encountering a scumbag on?
Having said that, rugby players cheat, but just cheat in different ways. You'll see a lot more punches on a a top level rugby field than on a top level soccer field.

(I live on the red line btw )

The issue wasn't whether certain areas of the country have higher rates of crime, or lower rates of employment and education. It was whether people from those areas are more inclined to cheat as professional athletes. That's the type of thing you need to provide evidence for. And not because it's 'offensive', but because it's how a thinking person makes an argument.

Anyway. It's getting dark in my socially disadvantaged housing estate, time for me to steal and pillage.

This is gone off topic so I'll finish here before the Mods get a hard-on.

irishbucsfan

I think there is a lot of pressure put on young elite soccer players. They're signed up in their early teens, put on massive wages and then grow up in that environment where they're idolised by the locals and targeted by businessmen. Obviously they make a big wage and so it's hard to pity them.

You can see it in countries where rugby academies are starting to do the same thing. Look at the behaviour of the English Under-20 team last year. I think it will inevitably creep into rugby as the sport becomes more commercial, both in Ireland and abroad.

As for the OP... a lot of the tradition of rugby revolves around respect for the opposition and I think that really helps things. Ultimately they're different sports and obviously both have their flaws. Soccer has become overly commercial and spoiled by things like crowd-trouble etc. Rugby often comes across as elitist in areas.

ThirdMan

Deleted User wrote: »

Finishing school and going to college requires a certain degree of maturity. Especially college where attendance really comes down to your own discipline. I think this is what the previous poster was alluding too and I agree.

Okay, I take your point. And I agree, generally. But I'd also argue that any relative immaturity that may arise through a reduced level of education does not pre-dispose someone to cheating or unsporting behaviour. This is even further off topic, but this country has seen all too well that a third level education and higher socio-economic status does not guarantee either maturity or responsibility.

Larbre34

Soccer is just so massive its hard to have good leadership by example. Its rotten with money and power so that feeds down to serious deficits of discipline and respect. There is some inevitable croneyism in Rugby but by and large the oversight of the game and its environment is accountable and scrutinised.

Rugby has its rotten apples but even on a world scale its so small its not like a guy can dirty his bib and fetch up in some obscure location and continue acting improperly. Even in the professional era the money isnt massive so guys are just comfortable, not drunk on mad wealth and certainly not made for life, so the thing of most value remains their reputation. Along with this, the match day officials are respected by the players and when they arent the punishments are severe. Punishments for foul play are also severe because of the risk of serious injury. Players that run away with themselves are most often snapped back by their own teammates than anyone else.

A culture is only what becomes the norm after years of a certain practice, you'd like to think they could make soccer more honourable but when you have guys of the quality and character that they do have at the very top of football, you wouldnt hold out much hope for an improvement

desertcircus

Talk of rugby players having degrees and footballers having none misses the real reason for it: a seventeen-year-old footballer can be picked for a World Cup final if he's good enough, but a seventeen-year-old rugby prodigy wouldn't be put anywhere near full professionals. Rugby players end up with degrees because they tend not to be physically ready before they're 22-24 years old. There are a few exceptions (Cian Healy seems to have been big and physical enough since he was in school) but even then the prodigies are less likely to have tertiary qualifications (I think Healy is one of very few Leinster players not to have any third level).

irishbucsfan

I don't think it really has anything to do with maturity or education or wealth. Some of the most arrogant and unlikable players I've played against (in England and Ireland) would tick all those boxes I'm sure.

For me it's just a different approach to the game and a different history. Rugby is built on a tradition of respect for the opposition and the unions have done a brilliant job of maintaining that through the professional era. I think they look at how the TV money affected soccer and they're doing a good job of avoiding the pitfalls.

Rugby is seen as very elitist though. I can understand why at times but I wish it was a tag we could lose.


It's not all rosy though. There are signs of the same sort of thing creeping in at times (the behaviour of the English U20 team last year etc.). Hopefully we can keep on the right track.

Jawgap

All games have a certain amount of cheating and 'gamesmanship' associated with them and rugby is no exception.

I think a couple of things set rugby apart though- the main one being it is one of only two sports in which the only way to go fowards is to go backwards! That also means contests - you can't sit back and flick the ball back and forward between your back four as you can in soccer or run it into the corners to frustrate the opposition - there are constant opportunities for teams to contest possession, as the team in possession must carry and move the ball to retain possession.

That means there are games / battles going one within the larger game, just like there are teams within the team, each trying to win their own mini-battle for the greater good.

That fosters teamwork - you have great players in rugby as you do in soccer and GAA, but the individualism which seems to define greatness you see in those games just wouldn't work in rugby. A player's worth to his team in rugby is, in large, defined by what he brings to the team and how he helps those around him play - absolute skill is important, but it's not defining.

Winters

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There are signs of the same sort of thing creeping in at times (the behaviour of the English U20 team last year etc.). Hopefully we can keep on the right track.

What happened there?

connemara man

I was the same but it was 4 years ago I got bored really of soccer and started following rugby (to the point I've taken it up). Its the team ethos and the fact a team can't sit back and let teams away with possession so that constant attack defend makes even the worst matches somewhat interesting to watch.

OnTheCouch

Winters wrote: »

Money being one but another reason for the differences between Rugby and Soccer is class and education.

The majority of top level soccer players leave school at the age of 15 or so to concentrate on football. They come mostly from a working class background and have no third level education. In rugby it is common for top players and referees to come from middle to upper class backgrounds, to play rugby in private schools and to progress to third level education. The % of rugby players with degrees is probably equal to the % of soccer players without.

This is just my observation from playing the two codes while growing up and of course there will be exceptions.

I'm not quite sure the issue between the two sports is as black as white as the above (even though it is clear there are far more third-level educated players in rugby than in football/soccer).

From what I have read, in rugby the class division tends to often be between countries, with higher education being prominent in professional rugby players from England, Scotland, Ireland, Australia, Argentina and it not being so common in players from Wales, France, New Zealand, (Italy?).

This of course is a generalisation, there are certain areas in some nations that would be seen as more 'down-to-earth' eg the Midlands in England...have any of Dean Richards, Martin Johnson or Manu Tuilagi attended third level courses?

I believe with the increased global profile, the similarities between the sports will start to become more apparent, from behaviour to celebrity exposure to education to a degree. Once the money increases and the influx from rugby league gets greater (which in my opinion is inevitable), the temptation for a promising 18 year old to go straight into professional rugby and skip university will be extremely tempting.

In any case, he can always go back to his studies once his career is finished, which is what I believe Jonny Wilkinson intends doing.

Quint2010

The fans attitude comes from the players in both sports. Rugby players are hard but fair, don't scream and shout at the ref, and generally show respect for their opponents. Soccer players are cheats, thugs and cowards-way more money than sense. Can't stand soccer anymore. Was thinking to myself at the HC final this year-could you ever imagine fans at the champions league final (which also happens to be a derby match) mingling together before and after a match, not segregated and winning and losing with grace?

justsomebloke

closing this off. I don't like pop shots being taken at other sports and there have been a few small ones here already and it's doubtful that there won't be any more