Query about drink driving and commercial vehicles

highdef

OK, I'm all in for the new limits about drink driving however I am a little bit confused about one aspect of it. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe car vans are covered within the commercial vehicle bouquet. I drive a Ford Focus van at present so I believe that I am fall under the 20mg per 100ml rule. Now, just hypothetically saying that I have a proper breath tester and I am about to go to work one morning in my Focus van and I blow 45mg per 100ml. This would mean that I would be over twice the legal limit and therefore I would not be able to drive my little Focus 2 seater vehicle. However, my partner has a very large 5 seater car which is not commercial. I am insured to drive that vehicle. Would I be legally ok to drive that vehicle, despite being over twice the legal limit to drive a much smaller vehicle which can only legally carry less than half the amount of people as my partners?
Just to reiterate, I don't drink and drive and have no grudges against the drink driving laws. It's just that if what I have said above is true, it really is amazingly silly. Someone please prove me wrong!!!!

seamus

The rule for commercials has less to do with the size of the vehicle and more to do with the fact that commercials spend more time on the road and therefore a drunk commercial driver is more of a risk.

highdef

seamus wrote: »

The rule for commercials has less to do with the size of the vehicle and more to do with the fact that commercials spend more time on the road and therefore a drunk commercial driver is more of a risk.

Is that not a bit of a generalisation? I drive to and from work and a little bit of driving in between, some personal and some business. Most of the time, I don't drive all that much. It's a company vehicle that I drive. I was given the choice of a 5 door Focus "car" or a 3 door Focus "van"....exactly the same as a 3 door regular Focus minus the rear side windows and rear seats. I chose the 3 door as I had less BIK to pay which is a reasonable reason, I would imagine. Whether I would drive the 3 door "van" or the 5 door "car", my mileage would be exactly the same and the driving experience in both vehicles is virtually identical.

If I had chosen a 5 door van and had 45 mg per 100ml on me one morning, then I would not be considered to be drunk (in terms of driving this vehicle) but because I chose the other option, I am considered to be drunk in the exact same circumstance. Seems pretty odd (in my particular scenario) that I can drive 2 almost identical vehicles but be 2 and a 1/2 times over the limit in one vehicle but just at the limit in another.

Valetta

Of course it's a generalisation, but laws cannot be made to suit individual circumstances.

I consider myself perfectly capable of driving after 2 drinks, but would not expect to have an amnesty from the drink driving limites just for me.

highdef

Well I would be very sketchy about driving with one drink. It's just a bit weird....for example, if I was leaving a pub some night and I had an accurate breath tester and it showed me over the limit for my van (say 40mg, for arguments sake). Therefore i would be considered unsafe to drive my vehicle because I'd be twice the legal limit. However, if my friend Joe Soap was about to jump into his car and I stopped him because he was obviously hammered, I could legally drive him home in his vehicle (I have open insurance on a private vehicle too) and I would be considered to be safe to do so, in the eyes of the law.

Again, I want to reaffirm that I am very much against drink driving.....it's just a very fooked up situation for me, if I were to make use of the limits.

L1011

I got conflicting reports from the rsa on this. One email claimed it only applied to drivers that needed cpc, the other claimed commercial tax was enough
Must check the actual legislation

RustyNut

MYOB wrote: »

I got conflicting reports from the rsa on this. One email claimed it only applied to drivers that needed cpc, the other claimed commercial tax was enough
Must check the actual legislation

A lack of clarity from the RSA. I'm shocked.














Not.

corktina

yeah it is amazingly silly...you have either had too much to drink or you haven't. What you are driving will still kill someone with a drunk behind the wheel

Bloodwing

When you're driving a focus van you are not classed as a specified driver and therefore do not fall into the lower limits.

The limits are not really based on the type of vehicle you are driving it's more based on the type of licence required to drive that vehicle. Take a look at the definition of a specified driver below and you'll see which of the apply to you and which don't.

“specified person” means a person who at the time of an alleged offence under section 4 or 5 —

(a) is the holder of a learner permit,

(b) holds his or her first driving licence, for a period not exceeding 2 years from its date of issue,

(c) is the holder of a driving licence licensing the holder to drive a vehicle in the category C, C1, D, D1, EB, EC, EC1, ED, ED1 and W while driving, attempting to drive or being in charge of such a vehicle,

(d) is the holder of a licence to drive a small public service vehicle granted under section 34 of the Taxi Regulation Act 2003 or section 82 of the Principal Act or a person purporting to be such a holder while driving, attempting to drive or being in charge of such a vehicle, when the vehicle is being used in the course of business,

(e) does not hold, at the time or, at any time within the period of 5 years prior to the commission, of the alleged offence a driving licence for the time being having effect and licensing the person to drive a vehicle of the category concerned, or

(f) is deemed under section 8 to be a specified person.

Victor

The law applies to the person, not the vehicle. If your main job is driving, you are a specified person (but do read the actual rules).

In broad terms, if you are a plumber who happens to drive a van for 30 minutes in the morning and 30 minutes in the evening it doesn't apply. If you are a van driver, who delivers stuff to plumbers, it does.

Bloodwing

Victor wrote: »

The law applies to the person, not the vehicle. If your main job is driving, you are a specified person (but do read the actual rules).

In broad terms, if you are a plumber who happens to drive a van for 30 minutes in the morning and 30 minutes in the evening it doesn't apply. If you are a van driver, who delivers stuff to plumbers, it does.

Profession has nothing to do with it other than Taxi drivers. A plumber driving a Ducato (Gross Vehicle Weight of 3000kg-3500kg) is not a specified driver as he only requires a B licence to drive it and therefore has a higher limit (22 microgrammes of alcohol per 100 milliliters of breath) same with the guy delivering to the plumber.

A plumber driving a Ducato Maxi (GVW 3500kg-4000kg) requires a C1 licence minimum and therefore falls under the specified limits(9 microgrammes of alcohol per 100 milliliters of breath) the same limit applies for the guy delivering to the plumber if he's driving a Maxi. The amount of time he spends driving does not matter the only time that matters is the time he is observed driving.

Another example would be my Dad who is a retired truck driver, he still holds an EC licence but it is no longer his profession. If he takes a friends truck out for a spin he falls under the specified driver limits.

Wishbone Ash

Valetta wrote: »

Of course it's a generalisation, but laws cannot be made to suit individual circumstances

Precisely.

For example, a 16 year old cannot legally drive a Nissan Micra on public roads but can legally drive with no experience, the largest tractor, with up to 2 trailers attached, on a public road, provided the overall length of the combination does not exceed 75 feet.

monument

highdef wrote: »

I drive to and from work and a little bit of driving in between, some personal and some business.

Are commercials not only suposed to be driven for business?

Wishbone Ash

monument wrote: »

Are commercials not only suposed to be driven for business?

And widely ignored by the SPSV sector when using their vehicles for private use!

mathepac

highdef wrote: »

... (I have open insurance on a private vehicle too) and I would be considered to be safe to do so, in the eyes of the law...

It worries me when I see these hypothetical discussions as they have a tendency to highlight significant knowledge gaps for certain people like in this case.

Open insurance (open driving extension?) on your policy does not cover you to drive other cars. Open driving covers other people to drive your car on your insurance policy with your permission.

In order for you to be covered to drive other cars you must have the "driving other cars" extension on your policy or the other lad must have the "open driving" extension on his policy.

This mythical intoximeter gives me the shivers as well. Unless it has been calibrated to the relevant Irish / European standards in the recent past it will invariably give incorrect readings.

There a simple rule that the RSA have been pushing for a while - "If you drink, don't drive", it's much safer.

Mikros

Victor wrote: »

The law applies to the person, not the vehicle. If your main job is driving, you are a specified person (but do read the actual rules).

You are wrong on that one - it applies to the class of driving licence while driving the class of vehicle in question. So for example a person who drives a truck for a living is not a specified person while driving a car (Class B licence). However if he is driving a HGV (Class C) they are a specified person.

A person driving a small commercial van (under max weight 3500kg) is driving under a Class B licence and is not a specified person for the purpose of the legislation.

You have to look at the vehicle in question and what licence is required to drive it - if you need a class C, C1, D, D1, EB, EC, EC1, ED, ED1 or W licence to drive the vehicle you are a specified person.

highdef

mathepac wrote: »

It worries me when I see these hypothetical discussions as they have a tendency to highlight significant knowledge gaps for certain people like in this case.

Open insurance (open driving extension?) on your policy does not cover you to drive other cars. Open driving covers other people to drive your car on your insurance policy with your permission.

In order for you to be covered to drive other cars you must have the "driving other cars" extension on your policy or the other lad must have the "open driving" extension on his policy.

This mythical intoximeter gives me the shivers as well. Unless it has been calibrated to the relevant Irish / European standards in the recent past it will invariably give incorrect readings.

There a simple rule that the RSA have been pushing for a while - "If you drink, don't drive", it's much safer.

My company van is covered by company insurance. I also own a private vehicle and have my own policy on that. This policy allows me to drive other vehicles. I may have been incorrect in my terminology when I said "open driving" - permission to drive other vehicles as well as my own private car is what I meant. Apologies for the confusion I may have caused.

And I completely agree with the RSA rule - "If you drink, don't drive", it's much safer.

Yellowblackbird

mathepac wrote: »

Open insurance (open driving extension?) on your policy does not cover you to drive other cars. Open driving covers other people to drive your car on your insurance policy with your permission.

In order for you to be covered to drive other cars you must have the "driving other cars" extension on your policy or the other lad must have the "open driving" extension on his policy.

I think this is an issue of colloquial english versus insurance ind jargon.

To the man in the street, or in vernacular english, 'driving other cars' extension is called 'open driving'. It would probably be better if people used the technically correct term but the vast majority of people believe that is what open driving is.

Markcheese

Not sure of the accuracy, but was told by a truck driver that once you have any sort of trailer on your car or van... You have to be under the lower limit .....

Mikros

Markcheese wrote: »

Not sure of the accuracy, but was told by a truck driver that once you have any sort of trailer on your car or van... You have to be under the lower limit .....

Not true - you can tow a small trailer on a B licence as long as it is under 750kg when fully loaded. In that case you would not be a specified driver and the normal limit would apply.

If I was worried about failing the lower limit but passing the normal limit I would probably just skip driving anyway - you have no idea how accurate your guess is and you could just as easy be over the normal limit. It's the safest option.

Wishbone Ash

Mikros wrote: »

Not true - you can tow a small trailer on a B licence as long as it is under 750kg when fully loaded

There's more to it than that:

(An O2 trailer is one that has a DGVW between 750kgs and 3500kgs).

For O1 Trailers

If you have an ordinary Category B licence, you may:

Tow a trailer of up to 0.75 tonnes DGVW, with a vehicle with a DGVW not exceeding 3.5 tonnes and seating for up to 8 passengers (apart from the driver). The combination weight cannot exceed 4.25 tonnes.
O1 trailers are not obliged to have brakes fitted unless they have a Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW), i.e. the weight of the trailer plus the load being carried, which is more than half the GVW of the towing vehicle to which they are attached.

If the trailer’s GVW is more than half the GVW of the towing vehicle, then the trailer must be fitted with a service brake, a parking brake and a device capable of automatically stopping the trailer if it becomes detached while in motion—i.e., a breakaway cable. As an alternative to a breakaway cable, a secondary coupling may be fitted.

For O2 Trailers

If you have an ordinary Category B licence, you may:

Tow an O2 trailer, provided that the DGVW of the trailer does not exceed the un-laden weight of the towing vehicle, and the total design gross vehicle weight of the combination does not exceed a total of 3.5 tonnes..

If you have a Category EB licence, you may:

Tow an O2 trailer, with a vehicle with a DGVW of up to 3.5 tonnes and seating for up to 8 passengers (apart from the driver), provided that the GVW of the trailer does not exceed the manufacturer’s rated towing capacity for the towing vehicle.

Mikros

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

There's more to it than that:

(An O2 trailer is one that has a DGVW between 750kgs and 3500kgs).

Yeah you're right, and if you are towing a trailer that needs an EB licence your a specified driver - lower limit.

Going Forward

I often wonder how many of those I see towing trailers are licensed to do so.....

A 750kg fully laden trailer would be quite small.