Merits/Demerits of Sporty Diesels - MOD WARNING [POST 3]

CRM Ireland

MOD WARNING EVERYONE READ POST #3 - BEFORE TOUCHING POST

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The diesel debate has been going on and on ever since the new high pressure diesel engines came out. Like all of these debates, there are some people who will just never ever agree with you.

Like Tossy says above, its down to your definition of what makes a car "sporty" that will decided which side of the fence you come down on.

The OP is young and asking for advice on the car he will get when he turns 18. Insurance is crippling at his age, so I reckon that means "sporty" to him at the moment isnt really allowing for high performance petrol cars such as a Porsche or any of the big turbo Jap cars.

In fact one of my friends back home comes from a wealthy background and his dad wanted to get him a Ferrari F355 when he first passed his test, but no matter what insurance company his dad tried, they all laughed at him. When I said that he would kill himself in an F355 having just passed his test, my opinion was deemed to be that of a jealous peer instead of a concerned friend! I'd have loved to have cruised around in such a machine, but honestly my mate wasnt even a good driver, he wasnt smooth at all. F355's are well known for how lethal they can be with lift-off oversteer.

Hot hatches although not sports cars in the true sense of the word, are what new drivers would consider sporty. When I think of all the Pug 205's, Ford Sierra's, Escorts, Fiestas, Calibra's, Golf's, Jetta's etc all my mates have owned over the years, they all thought their cars were very very sporty.

If you look at a modern day diesel engine, even a modest one, they will easily be able to keep up with all the cars Ive just mentioned. Also, as I already said in my previous post, the bhp increase from getting them chipped is incredible in comparison to traditional methods like changing an air filter or different exhaust and its really cheap too. The modern diesels are able to do stay with these older petrol cars in terms of power and performance, but yet they are also able to come usually standard with a nice fresh interior, cd player, AC, electric windows, remote central locking, airbags and all the latest safety technology. If it wasnt for all the extra safety equipment and extra comfort, the modern diesel would be much faster than their older petrol counterparts which were considered sporty for their time.

dar83 is wrong to say that a BMW 335d is the only sporty diesel. How can the Audi TT be classed as anything other than a sports car? That has a diesel option. A diesel Audi recently won the Le Mans 24 hour race and it was pitted against a field of all petrol cars.

OK I accept his/her point that a 1.X diesel is not sporty, I never said it was, but a 1.X petrol car isn't sporty either.

Here is the dictionary definition for sports car.

sports car 
noun
a small, high-powered automobile with long, low lines, usually seating two persons.

There are not many sports cars about then, if we base it on the definition.

dar83

CRM Ireland wrote: »

dar83 is wrong to say that a BMW 335d is the only sporty diesel. How can the Audi TT be classed as anything other than a sports car? That has a diesel option. A diesel Audi recently won the Le Mans 24 hour race and it was pitted against a field of all petrol cars.

OK I accept his/her point that a 1.X diesel is not sporty, I never said it was, but a 1.X petrol car isn't sporty either.

Here is the dictionary definition for sports car.

sports car 
noun
a small, high-powered automobile with long, low lines, usually seating two persons.

There are not many sports cars about then, if we base it on the definition.

That Diesel TT is an abomination. I can only imagine the poor original design engineers that were informed an agri lump was being put into their motor. Heartbreaking. And we're all aware of the Diesel LeMans car by now. Yes that was some feat, but you cant really compare that to road-going diesels, in the same way I wouldn't claim the anything about Petrol LeMans cars to prove a point about petrols being 'sporty'.

There is a love for Diesel in the UK, that's for sure. Even moreso than here although we are now catching up with that. But the reason for it across the water is economy and as someone else has already stated, sporty and economy don't mix.

I appreciate that Diesel's have their place in the world and that they seem to appeal to certain people these days for their Torque and feeling of speed, but apart from a very tiny percentage of them on the roads, none of the rest of them can be categorised as sporty. You even said it yourself, the one you had handled like a tank without some major suspension rework and a remap. If it's not sporty in nature from the factory, it will very rarely ever be, no matter how much you change. They're a practical car, thats about the sum of it.

And I would agree with your last point, there are very few sporty cars around on our roads, even if you relax that definition.

JimmyCrackCorn

Split as Car recommendation thread was going off topic

MOD WARNING

We have had threads like this before go bad before, for some reason Diesel is divisive.

1. Keep it civil
   
2. No mentioning of racing/messing/illegal activities = instant ban
3. No flame wars
4. Make a point
5. Debate the point not the poster
6. Read the forum rules
7. Back your point up with facts

I'm under pressure this week and will close the thread if it descends into madness.

I will mod this thread with a sledge

JimmyCrackCorn

The technical specs of the R10 Racecar 06

To end the debate on an agricultural engine see below.

The V12 TDI used in the R10 is the first Audi diesel engine with an aluminium crank case. The cylinder-bank angle is 90 degrees. The V12 TDI has four valves per cylinder and twin overhead camshafts. The fuel injection system uses the Common Rail approach now found on nearly all production cars, but the injection pressure “easily exceeds” 1600 bar, so is much higher than conventional. The ignition pressures also reach values never previously seen in any Audi engine.

The turbo boost is produced by two Garrett turbochargers limited by the regulations to 1.94 Bar boost. The diameter of both engine air intake restrictors, stipulated by the regulations, is 2 x 39.9 millimetres. The engine management is controlled by the latest generation Bosch Motronic (MS14).

The engine’s usable power band lies between 3000 and 5000 rpm.

http://autospeed.com/cms/title_Audi-R10-Diesel-Race-Car/A_112231/article.html

CRM Ireland

I was reading my first post above after the mod moved it into a topic of its own, trying to see where I had written about illegal activities thinking "what the hell is this overzealous mod on about?" and then I realised you were stating there was a mod posting made at number 3. I misunderstood thinking you were telling me I had my third warning for something.

I was getting my "prison" statement mentally prepared when the penny dropped!

They were preparing to release an Audi R8 V12 Diesel. An absolute beast of a car that wouldve been faster than the current petrol version, however they made a u-turn as the development costs in trying to get that huge lump of an engine shoehorned into the engine bay of the current design wouldve cost too much. Apparently they blame a less than expected growth in oil burners in the US.

Im sure once fuel costs continue to spiral, they will start to show as much interest as Europe.

Did I ever tell you all about the dump valve I got fitted to my TDi? Runs and hides in the corner!

tuxy

CRM Ireland wrote: »

Im sure once fuel costs continue to spiral, they will start to show as much interest as Europe.

The thing is Diesel is more expensive than petrol, it's only tax system that makes it look cheaper. Of course it can still work out good because of the good MPG returned. But in Ireland many say if you do 20k+ miles a year it's worth going diesel, in other countries your mileage would have to be considerably higher than this to make it worth while.

CRM Ireland

I get a lot more miles per gallon in my diesel car than I ever did in any petrol car. I also have the benefit of power in every gear which makes overtaking a breeze.

Also, if you are VAT registered as I am, you get 23% back on diesel, you dont get that if you drive a petrol car.

Another thing which is very interesting, is if you run your car on bio-diesel. Then you really start to save money and do less damage to the environment.

Apart from racing cars, there can surely be no real argument for even buying a petrol car these days.

tuxy

CRM Ireland wrote: »

Also, if you are VAT registered as I am, you get 23% back on diesel, you dont get that if you drive a petrol car.

Another incentive to add to list to go diesel in this small country but it does not make a difference to many other countries.
Also remember you get twice as much petrol from a barrel of crude oil than diesel

CRM Ireland wrote: »

Another thing which is very interesting, is if you run your car on bio-diesel. Then you really start to save money and do less damage to the environment.

Bio fuels are a con, more energy is used to produce it than we get back. Just think how much energy modern farming uses from machinery to petroleum based pesticides. Grants and tax cuts make it financially viable for farmers. And although people are finding things expensive at the pumps fossil fuels are still relatively cheap, these factor make it viable to produce biofuels.
Key point Biofuels = net loss of energy and more pollution.

There are many reports to back that up, have a look. Sorry I don't have any to hand right now but can link when I have more time if you want.
Btw I know we desperately need an alternative to fossil fuels but there have been many so called "green" incentives that have been very counter-productive. I better stop now before I go on a rant about hybrids and scrappage scheme.


Also on topic, petrol cars are more fun even if overtaking can often be easier in a diesel. Diesel makes perfect sense for some people.

CRM Ireland

I honestly know very little about the finer details, even the chunkier ones, about the environmental reasons for bio-diesel. I just threw that in there because with little thought, it made sense to me.

For what its worth, I wasnt talking about these merits for everyone, I was just suggesting a way an individual might choose diesel over a petrol. This thread was split from another thread by a mod, so it has sort of altered the intentions of my first post.

Personally, I chose a diesel because I get my VAT back, diesel is cheaper for me to buy and my car goes a lot further per litre of fuel burned. Its a 2003 car, I didnt pay any premium for it at all. In fact I specifically bought it because I intend to make bio-diesel for my own use. I was reading up a bit on here and its quite fascinating and will save me an absolute fortune as well as teaching me something new and giving me a hobby in the dark winter nights.

Im not talking about growing the fuel, Im talking about converting waste vegetable oil in my garage. There is a slight by-product of course, I wouldnt expect any less. As I said earlier Im not sure about the environmental aspects in detail, but Id say it would be safe to say its not a bad thing turning waste oil into a useable fuel. Even if it saves me buying more fuel, thats a small dent out of the global demand!

The reality is, I would still use bio-diesel if it was more harmful to the environment. In this instance I may be being selfish, however my desire for cheap fuel supersedes my desire for a cleaner fuel. If by pure coincidence I can get cheap fuel and be more environmentally friendly, then thats a great bonus.

Esel

CRM Ireland wrote: »

... if you are VAT registered as I am, you get 23% back on diesel...

Actually you get 18.7% of the VAT-inclusive amount back.

CRM Ireland wrote: »

Personally, I chose a diesel because I get my VAT back

Only on the diesel used in the course of your business. Private motoring does not qualify.

CRM Ireland wrote: »

...I intend to make bio-diesel for my own use....

Isn't this effectively against the law, as there is no mechanism for you to pay the relevant excise?

Green energy electric cars are the way forward, imo.

CRM Ireland

Esel wrote: »

Actually you get 18.7% of the VAT-inclusive amount back.
Only on the diesel used in the course of your business. Private motoring does not qualify.

Isn't this effectively against the law, as there is no mechanism for you to pay the relevant excise?

Green energy electric cars are the way forward, imo.

18.7% is it? I didnt know this, my accountant deals with it all for me, I just assumed it was 23%. Still 18.7% cheaper fuel is awesome.

I hand all my fuel receipts to the accountant, I get the VAT returned on it all. Ive never even been asked how much was for work purposes and what was for social. There is obviously a legal issue there and its already been pointed out by a mod about closing this thread down if illegal activities are discussed/encouraged.

It certainly isnt against the law. You inform the relevant authorities as to how much you have used and you pay the duty due on it. If you do everything totally above board, then all production costs and duty would make it cost between 40-50c per litre. Thats assuming you have a free source of used oil, which I do.

All I know is that having a diesel car for me personally is an absolute no-brainer over a petrol car.

Chris_Heilong

Sporty.... diesel..... does not compute.....

Wossack

CRM Ireland wrote: »

There are not many sports cars about then, if we base it on the definition.

correct

just cause it says 'sport' on the back, does not make it a sports car (ahem micra sport)


also, theres certainly no cc limitation on making a car sporty or not - see lotus exiges, ariel atoms, caterhams etc

knifey_spoonie

I don't think sporty can be used to describe any diesel car i have ever driven. When you face the facts of diesel engine it just doesn't lend itself to being a sporty engine. You have a noisey rattley unit, You have a narrow power-band and the most horrible power delivery known to man. I do think its fair to describe diesel as fast, but sporty they are not. Add onto that extra weight a diesel engine adds you have a car that is prone to increased understeer. Just no

Caliden

Completely depends on your definition of 'sporty'.
For some elitists on here sporty would be porches/ferraris/etc but for a regular Joe Soap a type-r/evo/gti would be sporty.

So let's compare like with like from the perspective of Joe. Let's say a civic vs. a golf tdi (highline/gt/whatever you want to called it)

Merits:
Easier to insure than any 'sporty' jap petrol car
Better mpg
Normally safer cars as weight isn't as much a concern as it is for lower torque petrol cars.

Demerits:
Possibility of increase in insurance costs due to their increased popularity
Can still be 'chaved' up with straight through exhausts/dump valves


I've currently moved from petrol to diesel and I don't see myself ever going back. The money I'm saving is going towards a car built for the track only.
This means that I won't be paying 1k+ on insurance, 600+ on tax and pay through the teeth for petrol while still having something to bring out on track and enjoy.

Driving around in a 300bhp+ car going to the shops/work/whatever just seems like an utter waste. I know there are some nice driving roads in Ireland but you're still bound by speed limits, other road users, Gardai with vendettas against sports cars.
I've gone on a bit of a tangent but I can see why so many people have switched to 'sporty' diesels and don't see it decreasing any time soon given that diesel is 5+ cent less expensive and you get 10-15 minimum more mpg

Muckie

Have always loved petrol cars, BMW's, Mini's(old Clubman) even my Impreza.

Brother loves his diesel Volvos(don't get it)

Each to their own, but do me a favour, don't fit a dump valve on your car.

Neighbour of mine "flet spec'd" his Audi A4 TDI, did a pretendo RS4 job on itt, God it sounded awful, plus car people will know.;)

Some tasty mods and happy days.