Equal status and disability

AlarmBelle

If someone has a disability but has not a parking badge could they claim the local authority is in breach of providing reasonable accommodation for disabled by giving someone who just went in for a paper a ticket?

Could they argue that not allowing a free 15 mins parking as some councils do is in breach of the act/ failing to provide reasonable accommodation for disabled without a badge. if they were successful how much would they be awarded.

This is a hypothetical based on something i heard

Milk & Honey

If someone is disabled they should get a badge. Councils cannot be expected to know who is disabled or not without seeing a badge. The fact that some councils exercise their discretion in a particular manner does not oblige other councils to do the same. People who get tickets have only themselves to blame if they deliberately break the law and try and justify it on the basis that they are disabled and only doing it for a minute.

AlarmBelle

Milk & Honey wrote: »

If someone is disabled they should get a badge. Councils cannot be expected to know who is disabled or not without seeing a badge. The fact that some councils exercise their discretion in a particular manner does not oblige other councils to do the same. People who get tickets have only themselves to blame if they deliberately break the law and try and justify it on the basis that they are disabled and only doing it for a minute.

That is not so and shows how little you know about disability. There are many disabilities where people do not qualify for badge

The fact that some councils exercise their discretion in a particular manner does not oblige other councils to do the same.

it would if the action were successful.

Victor

AlarmBelle wrote: »

Could they argue that not allowing a free 15 mins parking as some councils do is in breach of the act/ failing to provide reasonable accommodation for disabled without a badge. if they were successful how much would they be awarded.

Are you talking about a grace period? Grace periods are just that, they are discretionary and not entitlements.

Surely the test to be used in such a situation is whether someone is so disabled that they are entitled to a blue badge?

While some councils and other parking providers do provide free parking for a period of time (typically 1-3 hours), that is more to do with the turnover of parking than facilitating any particular group. Such parking is available to all, regardless of health or condition.

Could blind people argue that they should be provided with some payment in lieu of free parking? Giving free parking to people, which blind people can't avail of, is unfair.

ResearchWill

Victor wrote: »

Are you talking about a grace period? Grace periods are just that, they are discretionary and not entitlements.

Surely the test to be used in such a situation is whether someone is so disabled that they are entitled to a blue badge?

While some councils and other parking providers do provide free parking for a period of time (typically 1-3 hours), that is more to do with the turnover of parking than facilitating any particular group. Such parking is available to all, regardless of health or condition.

Could blind people argue that they should be provided with some payment in lieu of free parking? Giving free parking to people, which blind people can't avail of, is unfair.

But blind people automatically qualify for parking permit,

3. Qualifying for the scheme
Under the Disabled Parking Permit scheme people who are (a) Primary Medical Certificate holders or (b) registered blind, are automatically eligibility to avail of the scheme. You must, however, formally apply.

Everyone else (c) People who are not holders of the Primary Medical Certificate or registered blind, are required to have their application form completed by a certified medical practitioner. On receipt of the application form you need to make an appointment with a certified medical practitioner.

From http://www.iwa.ie/services/parking.aspx

Victor

ResearchWill wrote: »

But blind people automatically qualify for parking permit,

But they can't drive is my point. They are dependent on having someone else do the driving.

AlarmBelle

Surely the test to be used in such a situation is whether someone is so disabled that they are entitled to a blue badge?

under the equal status act they are obliged to make reasonable accommodation for disabled.In equality law there is no such thing as being so disabled that they are entitled to a blue badge. That would invalidate all otrher disabilities

AlarmBelle

ResearchWill wrote: »

But blind people automatically qualify for parking permit,

3. Qualifying for the scheme
Under the Disabled Parking Permit scheme people who are (a) Primary Medical Certificate holders or (b) registered blind, are automatically eligibility to avail of the scheme. You must, however, formally apply.

Everyone else (c) People who are not holders of the Primary Medical Certificate or registered blind, are required to have their application form completed by a certified medical practitioner. On receipt of the application form you need to make an appointment with a certified medical practitioner.

From http://www.iwa.ie/services/parking.aspx

that is correct but you do not have to be eligible for a badge to be disabled. There are, for examle, mental health disabilities and they have the same rights under equality law as blue badge holders

ResearchWill

AlarmBelle wrote: »

that is correct but you do not have to be eligible for a badge to be disabled. There are, for examle, mental health disabilities and they have the same rights under equality law as blue badge holders

But why should a person with a mental health disability have automatic acces to disabled parking. Disabled parking is about mobility and the name of the scheme is in fact misleading in that a person with a recognised disability may not qualify under the scheme while a person with out a disability may qualify, example a deaf person more than likely would not qualify even though the person has a disability, while an old person with no disability may in fact qualify.

Milk & Honey

AlarmBelle wrote: »

that is correct but you do not have to be eligible for a badge to be disabled. There are, for examle, mental health disabilities and they have the same rights under equality law as blue badge holders

Accommodation for disabled does not mean every disabled person is treated the same. It means accommodated to cope with their personal handicap. A mentally disabled person does not need the privilege of free parking because he can walk just as far as anybody else. Free parking is given because of the difficulties a person with particular infirmities suffers such that they cannot walk short distances without distress.

AlarmBelle

Milk & Honey wrote: »

Accommodation for disabled does not mean every disabled person is treated the same. It means accommodated to cope with their personal handicap. A mentally disabled person does not need the privilege of free parking because he can walk just as far as anybody else. Free parking is given because of the difficulties a person with particular infirmities suffers such that they cannot walk short distances without distress.

how do you know he does not have trouble walking and not qualify for a badge. that is quite possible because there can be reasons for not being able to walk far that are not part of the badge criterion

ResearchWill

AlarmBelle wrote: »

how do you know he does not have trouble walking and not qualify for a badge. that is quite possible because there can be reasons for not being able to walk far that are not part of the badge criterion

Having helped a person apply recently, if a person does not automatically qualify then that person gets a form from the operators of the scheme, said form has a section for a doctor to complete, which states that the person has difficulty walking, so if the person has difficulty walking and a doctor agrees then he will get the parking permit.

BTW it would not be possible for any poster here to know if the person has difficulty walking as up until your post it was not stated.

Milk & Honey

AlarmBelle wrote: »

how do you know he does not have trouble walking and not qualify for a badge. that is quite possible because there can be reasons for not being able to walk far that are not part of the badge criterion

The person either gets a badge or not. If they are disabled enough they get a badge. If not, tough. Councils can't wait until the illegally parked driver returns and then medically examine them before issuing a ticket.

MagicSean

AlarmBelle wrote: »

under the equal status act they are obliged to make reasonable accommodation for disabled.In equality law there is no such thing as being so disabled that they are entitled to a blue badge. That would invalidate all otrher disabilities

Disabled spaces should be reserved for people whose disability prevents their mobility alone. I don't see how you could convince a court that your inability to obtain a badge is discrimination if it your mobility isn't affected and you are not at a disadvantage to anyone else.

Victor

You are missing the part about reasonableness in providing for those with disabilities. Providing for everyone, means there is no accommodation for those that actually do need help of some kind.

AlarmBelle wrote: »

under the equal status act they are obliged to make reasonable accommodation for disabled.In equality law there is no such thing as being so disabled that they are entitled to a blue badge. That would invalidate all otrher disabilities

What about someone who has stubbed their toe, can't walk very well today, but will be better tomorrow? Blue badge, free travel pass, wheelchair, care assistant?

So, would you advocate that someone with a speech or hearing impairment, chemical dependency or infectious disease should be able to avail of a blue badge? Crutches for those with quadriplegia, cake for those with diabetes, airline pilots licences for those with epilepsy?

A line has to be drawn somewhere between those who need a blue badge and those that don't. If you feel that line is too high, you need to campaign to have it reduced. If you feel that your friend meets the standard and was wrongly rejected, then appeal.

Procrastastudy

The 15 minute grace thingy comes from the Shoe Lane parking case and has more to do with some very boring aspects of contract law as opposed to anything else.

Grab an legal team and Judicially Review the decision OP

AlarmBelle

Procrastastudy wrote: »

The 15 minute grace thingy comes from the Shoe Lane parking case and has more to do with some very boring aspects of contract law as opposed to anything else.

Grab an legal team and Judicially Review the decision OP

will you lead the team:D

AlarmBelle

Milk & Honey wrote: »

The person either gets a badge or not. If they are disabled enough they get a badge. If not, tough. Councils can't wait until the illegally parked driver returns and then medically examine them before issuing a ticket.

why don't you rewrite the equality law?

Procrastastudy

AlarmBelle wrote: »

will you lead the team:D

I'm not sure I'm allowed...

AlarmBelle

ResearchWill wrote: »

Having helped a person apply recently, if a person does not automatically qualify then that person gets a form from the operators of the scheme, said form has a section for a doctor to complete, which states that the person has difficulty walking, so if the person has difficulty walking and a doctor agrees then he will get the parking permit.

BTW it would not be possible for any poster here to know if the person has difficulty walking as up until your post it was not stated.

not correct not that easy, the reason for difficulty walking comes into it. i see it was reviewed in 2011 maybe that changed?

AlarmBelle

ResearchWill wrote: »

Having helped a person apply recently, if a person does not automatically qualify then that person gets a form from the operators of the scheme, said form has a section for a doctor to complete, which states that the person has difficulty walking, so if the person has difficulty walking and a doctor agrees then he will get the parking permit.

BTW it would not be possible for any poster here to know if the person has difficulty walking as up until your post it was not stated.

you wrote few posts above

Disabled parking is about mobility

it is about equality i am asking

AlarmBelle

Procrastastudy wrote: »

I'm not sure I'm allowed...

someone here will rewrite the rules for you

MagicSean

AlarmBelle wrote: »

you wrote few posts above it is about equality i am asking

It's not sufficient to be disabled and not be given special treatment. The special treatment must be required to put you on an even setting despite the disability.

For example, I would argue a person being deaf shouldn't be eligible for a blue badge. Deafness does not affect your mobility so the extra bit of walking will not put you at any disadvantage.

ResearchWill

AlarmBelle wrote: »

not correct not that easy, the reason for difficulty walking comes into it. i see it was reviewed in 2011 maybe that changed?

As I said I recently helped a person get a permit, since the new scheme came in the doctor is asked to lost any and all illness and in the case I helped with state the mobility of the person, if they could walk a certain distance unaided. My reading of the questions posed it was very much about mobility.

ResearchWill

AlarmBelle wrote: »

you wrote few posts above it is about equality i am asking

Yes it's about equality, to give people with mobility problems an equal chance. I can walk miles so if I have to park a 10 minute walk away from my doctor or bank it does not matter to me but a person who can not walk so far because of say a lung problem should be able to find parking close to his doctor. Just because a person has a disability does not mean they have an entitlement to the same rights as a person with a different disability.

Your question was could a council be challenged under equality legislation for not allowing a disabled person (who they are not aware of being disabled) a grase period to park and pick up a paper. I can not see how the person is being discriminated against, equality is about treating people equally, if your disability means you can walk as well as I can why should you get unequal treatment to me just because you say you have a disability.

Milk & Honey

AlarmBelle wrote: »

why don't you rewrite the equality law?

I gave a better idea. Why don't you learn what the existing laws mean?
Your problem (if any) is with the criteria for issuing a badge not the actions of the council in enforcing the law.

Peregrinus

Look, you don’t say what disability the person concerned has, or how and to what extent it affects their mobility, or why they have not been able to obtain a disabled parking permit, and without basic information like that it’s pretty well impossible to know what is reasonable to accommodate their parking needs.

The second point you need to be aware of is that there is no general requirement on local authorities to do all that is reasonable to accommodate the needs of persons with a disability. The “do all that is reasonable” rule applies to

- persons selling goods or providing services

- persons selling, letting or providing accommodation

- educational institutions

- clubs

Local authorities are only affected by this requirement to the extent that they are selling goods, providing services, etc. It’s questionable whether the regulation of on-street parking is “providing a service”, but the provision of a public car park on local authority land probably is. So the extent of the authority’s duties may depend on where the car parking space is. And of course if the car parking space is in a shopping centre, then the local authority is not involved at all; it’s the shopping centre owner you should be speaking to.

Assuming the “reasonable” rule applies, the question comes down to this: is it reasonable to confine use of the designated disabled parking spaces to people who have disabled parking permits? And the obvious answer to that is “yes”. The disabled parking permit is issued or withheld on the basis of medical evidence, against criteria which address mobility impairment. Issue of the permits is administered by the Disabled Drivers Association and the Irish Wheelchair Association, both of whom can be taken to have both experience and understanding of the reality of disability. While it would be possible for the providers of car parking spaces to ignore the statutory criteria and the assessments made by these bodies and instead to set their own criteria and make their own assessments, there would obviously be a considerable cost in doing so, and there is no reason to think that it would produce an outcome more accurately reflecting the needs of disabled persons (and plenty of reason to suppose that it wouldn’t).

So I think you have two challenges. First, you must establish that in relation to the particular car parking spaces you are thinking of, the council controls them and in its control of them it is subject to the “do all that is reasonably necessary to accommodate” requirement of the Equal Status Act. And, secondly, you must show that relying on the disability parking permit scheme to control access to the disabled spaces is not enough to do all that is reasonably necessary. And I think that in relation to the second issue in particular you will have your work cut out.

AlarmBelle

MagicSean wrote: »

It's not sufficient to be disabled and not be given special treatment. The special treatment must be required to put you on an even setting despite the disability.

For example, I would argue a person being deaf shouldn't be eligible for a blue badge. Deafness does not affect your mobility so the extra bit of walking will not put you at any disadvantage.

you cannot say that as you do not know the details

AlarmBelle

Peregrinus wrote: »

Look, you don’t say what disability the person concerned has, or how and to what extent it affects their mobility, or why they have not been able to obtain a disabled parking permit, and without basic information like that it’s pretty well impossible to know what is reasonable to accommodate their parking needs.

The second point you need to be aware of is that there is no general requirement on local authorities to do all that is reasonable to accommodate the needs of persons with a disability. The “do all that is reasonable” rule applies to

- persons selling goods or providing services

- persons selling, letting or providing accommodation

- educational institutions

- clubs

Local authorities are only affected by this requirement to the extent that they are selling goods, providing services, etc. It’s questionable whether the regulation of on-street parking is “providing a service”, but the provision of a public car park on local authority land probably is. So the extent of the authority’s duties may depend on where the car parking space is. And of course if the car parking space is in a shopping centre, then the local authority is not involved at all; it’s the shopping centre owner you should be speaking to.

Assuming the “reasonable” rule applies, the question comes down to this: is it reasonable to confine use of the designated disabled parking spaces to people who have disabled parking permits? And the obvious answer to that is “yes”. The disabled parking permit is issued or withheld on the basis of medical evidence, against criteria which address mobility impairment. Issue of the permits is administered by the Disabled Drivers Association and the Irish Wheelchair Association, both of whom can be taken to have both experience and understanding of the reality of disability. While it would be possible for the providers of car parking spaces to ignore the statutory criteria and the assessments made by these bodies and instead to set their own criteria and make their own assessments, there would obviously be a considerable cost in doing so, and there is no reason to think that it would produce an outcome more accurately reflecting the needs of disabled persons (and plenty of reason to suppose that it wouldn’t).

So I think you have two challenges. First, you must establish that in relation to the particular car parking spaces you are thinking of, the council controls them and in its control of them it is subject to the “do all that is reasonably necessary to accommodate” requirement of the Equal Status Act. And, secondly, you must show that relying on the disability parking permit scheme to control access to the disabled spaces is not enough to do all that is reasonably necessary. And I think that in relation to the second issue in particular you will have your work cut out.

Thanks very helpful. It would be on street parking so the council would probably be providinga service

I do not understand

And, secondly, you must show that relying on the disability parking permit scheme to control access to the disabled spaces is not enough to do all that is reasonably necessary

It is not the disabled parking spaces the person is talking about as they do not have a blue badge so could not park there. It is ordinary parking on a public street not a private car park

AlarmBelle

ResearchWill wrote: »

Yes it's about equality, to give people with mobility problems an equal chance. I can walk miles so if I have to park a 10 minute walk away from my doctor or bank it does not matter to me but a person who can not walk so far because of say a lung problem should be able to find parking close to his doctor. Just because a person has a disability does not mean they have an entitlement to the same rights as a person with a different disability.

Your question was could a council be challenged under equality legislation for not allowing a disabled person (who they are not aware of being disabled) a grase period to park and pick up a paper. I can not see how the person is being discriminated against, equality is about treating people equally, if your disability means you can walk as well as I can why should you get unequal treatment to me just because you say you have a disability.

the person cannot walk as well as you or I and would have to pay full hour charge, i think a euro, to pick up the paper. You or I could park away from the shop and walk to it from somewhere there is no charge for parking. also people on disability allowance are on a fixed income

goulders

They say about 10% of the population have a disability, the other 90% wish they had when looking for a parking space. As a full time wheelchair user, I have heard every excuse for people parking in reserved spaces. Everything from "only here for a minute but I will move if I see someone who needs it", "I have a sore back" etc etc etc., you name it I have heard it. I have also frequently seen the blue badge being abused by family or friends of the holder. But just be warned if I find YOU abusing the reserved space I will block you in and leave you their, (my record is one and a half hours, I enjoyed that one.)

ResearchWill

AlarmBelle wrote: »

the person cannot walk as well as you or I and would have to pay full hour charge, i think a euro, to pick up the paper. You or I could park away from the shop and walk to it from somewhere there is no charge for parking. also people on disability allowance are on a fixed income

They can afford to run a car and pay the 1 to 2 euro charge for the paper, the I can't afford the parking charge argument does not run. If he has difficulty walking then he can apply and if refused he can appeal. He does not satisfy the requirement then he like the rest of us has to pay to park.

Victor

Procrastastudy wrote: »

The 15 minute grace thingy comes from the Shoe Lane parking case and has more to do with some very boring aspects of contract law as opposed to anything else.

No, you have crossed wires here.

Some car parks will allow you leave in the first few minutes with no charge. This can be seen as getting around Shoe Lane.

Grace periods are there to discourage overly-zealous enforcement.

MagicSean

AlarmBelle wrote: »

you cannot say that as you do not know the details

The details of my hypothetical scenario? Yes I do know them because I made them up.

AlarmBelle

ResearchWill wrote: »

They can afford to run a car and pay the 1 to 2 euro charge for the paper, the I can't afford the parking charge argument does not run. If he has difficulty walking then he can apply and if refused he can appeal. He does not satisfy the requirement then he like the rest of us has to pay to park.

apply for a badge? told you he does not qualify

AlarmBelle

MagicSean wrote: »

The details of my hypothetical scenario? Yes I do know them because I made them up.

then why did you say you at the end as if addresing me

AlarmBelle

ResearchWill wrote: »

They can afford to run a car and pay the 1 to 2 euro charge for the paper, the I can't afford the parking charge argument does not run. If he has difficulty walking then he can apply and if refused he can appeal. He does not satisfy the requirement then he like the rest of us has to pay to park.

needs a car as has mobility problems

AlarmBelle

goulders wrote: »

They say about 10% of the population have a disability, the other 90% wish they had when looking for a parking space. As a full time wheelchair user, I have heard every excuse for people parking in reserved spaces. Everything from "only here for a minute but I will move if I see someone who needs it", "I have a sore back" etc etc etc., you name it I have heard it. I have also frequently seen the blue badge being abused by family or friends of the holder. But just be warned if I find YOU abusing the reserved space I will block you in and leave you their, (my record is one and a half hours, I enjoyed that one.)

never parked in a disabled space in my life wouldn't so YOU won't be blocking me and enjoying it. you must not have much to do if you can spend an hour and half blocking someone. and why do you not report the abusers
Anyway can this be closed, too much ot stuff

ResearchWill

AlarmBelle wrote: »

needs a car as has mobility problems

My point was if he can afford car, insurance, tax and fuel and he can afford to buy a paper every day he can afford to pay the parking charge, it's just another expense of motoring.

ResearchWill

AlarmBelle wrote: »

apply for a badge? told you he does not qualify

Then he does not have serious mobility issues. If he does then the decision is wrong and appeal it.

AlarmBelle

ResearchWill wrote: »

Then he does not have serious mobility issues. If he does then the decision is wrong and appeal it.

i did not say he had serious as in medically serious mobility issues said he cannot walk to shop

Jo King

AlarmBelle wrote: »

i did not say he had serious as in medically serious mobility issues said he cannot walk to shop

Why doesn't he drive to a garage with a shop and park for free in the forecourt while he gets the paper?

byhookorbycrook

I have MS and would be quite limited in my mobility, but found it quite difficult to get a blue badge.MS means some slightly better days than others, cold weather or very warm weather make me extremely limited.
Even now,I try to use other spaces unless I' m almost on my knees.Ironically, I'd find it easier to get around if I were a wheelchair user,for example to matches, concerts etc. Am I being discriminated against too, so?
*Snorts*

ResearchWill

AlarmBelle wrote: »

i did not say he had serious as in medically serious mobility issues said he cannot walk to shop

So he can not walk to a shop, and same is not due to medical reasons. BTW the test for a parking Permit is not have you a medical condition it is can you walk unaided more than a certain distance. So if he can not walk unaided to a shop I can not understand why he can not get the permit.

Peregrinus

Note that he's not looking for a disabled space; he's looking for a regular space, but at no cost.

I think it will be very hard to make the case that his disability is such that he can use an ordinary parking space, but cannot pay the ordinary parking charge. What kind of disability is that?

Milk & Honey

Peregrinus wrote: »

he can use an ordinary parking space, but cannot pay the ordinary parking charge. What kind of disability is that?

The Cavan Syndrome!

FreudianSlippers

ResearchWill wrote: »

So he can not walk to a shop, and same is not due to medical reasons. BTW the test for a parking Permit is not have you a medical condition it is can you walk unaided more than a certain distance. So if he can not walk unaided to a shop I can not understand why he can not get the permit.

For example the morbidly obese! But I think that begins to qualify as a medical condition?

By that I mean, I can't think of any reason one couldn't walk to the shop that was not a "medical condition"

ResearchWill

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

For example the morbidly obese! But I think that begins to qualify as a medical condition?

By that I mean, I can't think of any reason one couldn't walk to the shop that was not a "medical condition"

Old age may not be considered a medical condition but I suppose there may be a medical reason.