best terminal sire for angus cows

milk_man

hello there

i would be gratefull for some advice , ive recently put together a herd of twenty angus cross ( out of british fresian ) heifers , they are eighteen months old and are nice stock with good shape , i intend to bull them from the second week of april

now , for reasons i wont go into , i do not intend to breed for the weanling market , i intend to finish the males as bulls and any heifers which i think are a better bet for the breeding market , will be sold to those buyers

my question is this , what is the best choice sire breed to go with , bare in mind that i dont intend to AI so belgian blue is out , limousin sounds like an obvious choice but someone told me limousin dont cross well on angus , angus would keep the herd more pure but the cattle might be a little too small , charoloais is too hard to calve and besides , i cant imagine a charolias would make any sense on an angus dam

as such ive sort of narrowed it down to two breeds

limousin , relativley easy calving , should add length , growth and size , if they look funny out of angus cows ( like some suggest ) is unimportant as they will be going to the factory , not mart

hereford , easy calving , docile , hardy , that bit bigger than angus so should be an improovement on simply keeping things pure angus , also get a bit of hybrid vigour, they call them black baldies in england and scotland and are apparently well regarded

thanks

johnpawl

Had alot of AA cows off brfr cows, put a ch bull on them one year and got very good calves, all white and yellow in colour.

milk_man wrote: »

hello there

i would be gratefull for some advice , ive recently put together a herd of twenty angus cross ( out of british fresian ) heifers , they are eighteen months old and are nice stock with good shape , i intend to bull them from the second week of april

now , for reasons i wont go into , i do not intend to breed for the weanling market , i intend to finish the males as bulls and any heifers which i think are a better bet for the breeding market , will be sold to those buyers

my question is this , what is the best choice sire breed to go with , bare in mind that i dont intend to AI so belgian blue is out , limousin sounds like an obvious choice but someone told me limousin dont cross well on angus , angus would keep the herd more pure but the cattle might be a little too small , charoloais is too hard to calve and besides , i cant imagine a charolias would make any sense on an angus dam

as such ive sort of narrowed it down to two breeds

limousin , relativley easy calving , should add length , growth and size , if they look funny out of angus cows ( like some suggest ) is unimportant as they will be going to the factory , not mart

hereford , easy calving , docile , hardy , that bit bigger than angus so should be an improovement on simply keeping things pure angus , also get a bit of hybrid vigour, they call them black baldies in england and scotland and are apparently well regarded

thanks

flatout11

if your gonna hang all progeny up id pick up a angus bull for the first year to use on them as heifers - easy calved and you can get the bonus if you put them through the aa group alternatively you could go for a limo but
after that charolais bull all the way - quite simple they will out weigh the rest every time .... the aa x cows should spit them out

1chippy

if you ran a shorthorn on them the heifers would definately be worth a few extra quid.
Theres absolutaly no issue with the limo out of an angus. nice black cattle easily finished. they are well sought after round these parts.

blue5000

OP I have aa cows like your talking about and I use a blonde as terminal sire. Nothing on the hook from him yet though. Go for something easy calving the first year. Hereford might be worth considering and get the bonus. What part of the country are you in? Welcome to boards

Bizzum

Easy calving Lim as heifers or even cow heifers. Charolais then. Two good crosses on AA cows.

@ Blue I'd be interested to see the BA x AA.

milk_man

flatout11 wrote: »

if your gonna hang all progeny up id pick up a angus bull for the first year to use on them as heifers - easy calved and you can get the bonus if you put them through the aa group alternatively you could go for a limo but
after that charolais bull all the way - quite simple they will out weigh the rest every time .... the aa x cows should spit them out

i would have thought that a charolias bull would wreck angus cows and take years off them

milk_man

1chippy wrote: »

if you ran a shorthorn on them the heifers would definately be worth a few extra quid.
Theres absolutaly no issue with the limo out of an angus. nice black cattle easily finished. they are well sought after round these parts.

probabley what i will do , i wonder would a limosuin be ok for heifers , they will be two year old when they go to the bull

milk_man

blue5000 wrote: »

OP I have aa cows like your talking about and I use a blonde as terminal sire. Nothing on the hook from him yet though. Go for something easy calving the first year. Hereford might be worth considering and get the bonus. What part of the country are you in? Welcome to boards

a blonde , interesting idea , would they not produce a very peculiar colour of animal out of an angus , not that that would be a huge deal as they all look the same when on a hook , i can see how the blonde would add length , how would the blonde compare to a limosouin in terms of calving ease , feet ( important for the bull himself ) and hardiness for when the calf is a few days old

mikeoh

milk_man wrote: »

probabley what i will do , i wonder would a limosuin be ok for heifers , they will be two year old when they go to the bull

Simmental is supposed to be thé best cross for Angus .all the size of the Simmental with the Angus conformation and loads of milk.....win win........if the weren't first calvers!!! Would u chance one on heifers??

milk_man

mikeoh wrote: »

Simmental is supposed to be thé best cross for Angus .all the size of the Simmental with the Angus conformation and loads of milk.....win win........if the weren't first calvers!!! Would u chance one on heifers??

im getting confused now , according to british farming forum , limosouin isnt a good cross on angus , someone here says they are , i myself would have thought they were pretty ok

that other forum says hereford and shorthorn cross well on angus , im begining to wonder if their is no perfect cross and all of them offer something decent

i like simmental btw so would have no problem putting one on an angus , agree about adding length

my list gets longer

limosouin
blonde
simmental
small chance of a charolais

hereford or angus for the first year while they are heifers

Farmer Pudsey

If you are finishing I go with a limosuin there are easier calving than charlois and heifers may well be worth money. I finished a few LMX bulls that seem to be off AA cows they weighted like lead. Mind you I nearly always find that AA bulls even weigh well. The issue with charlois if you end up with a growthy calf they take ages to finish.

The biggest issue with limousin is that off any black you nearly always get a black calf unless the cow is LMX already. Forget about shorthorn as one farmer says near me there ''bad to die''. From AA cows your herefords will have very light carcases. Do not know much about Blondes so will not comment. Another advantage of limousin is that you have a hardier calf compared to a charlois I get the opinion that you may always not be there at calving

johnpawl

milk_man wrote: »

i would have thought that a charolias bull would wreck angus cows and take years off them[/B]

In my experience that is absolutely not the case on AAx cows(would not use ch on heifers). A neighbour of mine is into finishing cattle in a big way and he always says his favourite animal is a charolais from an AA cow as they dont grow too tall and are easily fattened.

milk_man

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

If you are finishing I go with a limosuin there are easier calving than charlois and heifers may well be worth money. I finished a few LMX bulls that seem to be off AA cows they weighted like lead. Mind you I nearly always find that AA bulls even weigh well. The issue with charlois if you end up with a growthy calf they take ages to finish.

The biggest issue with limousin is that off any black you nearly always get a black calf unless the cow is LMX already. Forget about shorthorn as one farmer says near me there ''bad to die''. From AA cows your herefords will have very light carcases. Do not know much about Blondes so will not comment. Another advantage of limousin is that you have a hardier calf compared to a charlois I get the opinion that you may always not be there at calving

something i perhaps should have mentioned is that i need to have the bulls finished by sixteen or seventeen months , so if they were born this coming january ( for arguement sake ) , they would go into the shed next october - november and never go outside again , i know an angus or hereford could be finished as a bull by that age but would you need longer to do the same with a limosuin

Farmer Pudsey

milk_man wrote: »

something i perhaps should have mentioned is that i need to have the bulls finished by sixteen or seventeen months , so if they were born this coming january ( for arguement sake ) , they would go into the shed next october - november and never go outside again , i know an angus or hereford could be finished as a bull by that age but would you need longer to do the same with a limosuin

Finishing bulls at 16ish month's is a tough buisness. If you house in early november these bulls will be indoors for 6+ months. However the AA breeding should allow them to finish easily. While herefords or AA remain small they are only early maturing compared to charlois/Fresians. I look for a LM bull with good weight for age traits ie an early maturing bull. Your cows will have plenty of milk and if finishing early I would creep feed them from late aug/early september. Get them used to coming under the electric fence and feed them in a normal trough, get them to 3-4kgs for the last two weeks before housing so that they will bomb along indoors if going ad-lib or even if only feeding this amount with silage the will not go back on housing. However 200 days is a long indoor feding period. However to justify you need to target the May price hike. If you have land suitable I would try to keep outdoors until mid December and that would give a 150 day finishing period to mid may

milk_man

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Finishing bulls at 16ish month's is a tough buisness. If you house in early november these bulls will be indoors for 6+ months. However the AA breeding should allow them to finish easily. While herefords or AA remain small they are only early maturing compared to charlois/Fresians. I look for a LM bull with good weight for age traits ie an early maturing bull. Your cows will have plenty of milk and if finishing early I would creep feed them from late aug/early september. Get them used to coming under the electric fence and feed them in a normal trough, get them to 3-4kgs for the last two weeks before housing so that they will bomb along indoors if going ad-lib or even if only feeding this amount with silage the will not go back on housing. However 200 days is a long indoor feding period. However to justify you need to target the May price hike. If you have land suitable I would try to keep outdoors until mid December and that would give a 150 day finishing period to mid may

what age would you have to seperate the heifers from the bulls and run two mobs with their mothers , id have thought six months but would you need to go earlier , would the bulls never stop going after the heifers after three or four months

Mac Taylor

We have 5 AAx (off HO cows according to ICBF. We were initially crossing with PB CH bull and were getting a grey cross. (No problem calving)whilst they weighed well, we were selling as weanlings, the demand was and is not there for them. We are now using a PB lim bull (Rocky sired), again no problem calving. The are well muscled and weighted well (Feb/Mar born avg weight 340kg's) As we selling weanlings and the majority came black, demand was not great. We just about averaged €2kg with 2 of them going for breeding. But as the OP is plannng on rearing straight through, the AAx crossed with terminal LM sire (easier calving and hardier at birth) would be my choice.

milk_man

Mac Taylor wrote: »

We have 5 AAx (off HO cows according to ICBF. We were initially crossing with PB CH bull and were getting a grey cross. (No problem calving)whilst they weighed well, we were selling as weanlings, the demand was and is not there for them. We are now using a PB lim bull (Rocky sired), again no problem calving. The are well muscled and weighted well (Feb/Mar born avg weight 340kg's) As we selling weanlings and the majority came black, demand was not great. We just about averaged €2kg with 2 of them going for breeding. But as the OP is plannng on rearing straight through, the AAx crossed with terminal LM sire (easier calving and hardier at birth) would be my choice.

their is a big difference between angus heifers - cows out of holstien and those out of british fresian , the ones out of holstiens are way more narrow , unfortunatley all the AAX are advertised as being out of british fresian regardless of whether they are or not , ive went to farms where the AAX were quite clearly out of holstiens , despite the owner claiming otherwise

stands to reason as only a minority of dairy farmers still keep british fresian

Farmer Pudsey

Mac Taylor wrote: »

We have 5 AAx (off HO cows according to ICBF. We were initially crossing with PB CH bull and were getting a grey cross. (No problem calving)whilst they weighed well, we were selling as weanlings, the demand was and is not there for them. We are now using a PB lim bull (Rocky sired), again no problem calving. The are well muscled and weighted well (Feb/Mar born avg weight 340kg's) As we selling weanlings and the majority came black, demand was not great. We just about averaged €2kg with 2 of them going for breeding. But as the OP is plannng on rearing straight through, the AAx crossed with terminal LM sire (easier calving and hardier at birth) would be my choice.

I be crossing them cows back to an AA or an HE if finishing. I would use the biggest framed AAbull possible whatever about HE for to have an animal that is easier finishing rather than earlier finishing. However selling as weanling is a different case.

milk_man wrote: »

their is a big difference between angus heifers - cows out of holstien and those out of british fresian , the ones out of holstiens are way more narrow , unfortunatley all the AAX are advertised as being out of british fresian regardless of whether they are or not , ive went to farms where the AAX were quite clearly out of holstiens , despite the owner claiming otherwise

stands to reason as only a minority of dairy farmers still keep british fresian

If crossing back to traditional breeds BF can be a disadvantage as prodgney will not carry the weight if finishing and can be slow growing

milk_man

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I be crossing them cows back to an AA or an HE if finishing. I would use the biggest framed AAbull possible whatever about HE for to have an animal that is easier finishing rather than earlier finishing. However selling as weanling is a different case.


If crossing back to traditional breeds BF can be a disadvantage as prodgney will not carry the weight if finishing and can be slow growing

so the limosuin is probabley the best bet for angus cows out of british fresian

Farmer Pudsey

milk_man wrote: »

so the limosuin is probabley the best bet for angus cows out of british fresian

In my opinion yes the especially if not always around for calving. But if finishing at 16 months you will need to keep them bombing along (same for an bull finishinh at this age). There is no place for 250-300 kgs calf at housing in your sustem you will need to be hitting 360-400kgs at housing and 550-600 at finishing.

Advantages easy calving , early maturing and a hardy calf at birth. Belgian Blues, Charlois and suffock lambs often do there best to die at birth

tismesoitis

Parthenaise all the way serious demand for replacement heifers and bulls that will get serious weight gains and slaughter young and heavy!! hope to sell our 1st 2 partenaise bull weanlings in carnaross tuesday. weighed them yesterday 1st lad born 22 feb weighed 460 2nd lad born 27 feb 475kgs.

johnpawl

tismesoitis wrote: »

Parthenaise all the way serious demand for replacement heifers and bulls that will get serious weight gains and slaughter young and heavy!! hope to sell our 1st 2 partenaise bull weanlings in carnaross tuesday. weighed them yesterday 1st lad born 22 feb weighed 460 2nd lad born 27 feb 475kgs.

Have those bulls much ration eaten?

milk_man

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

In my opinion yes the especially if not always around for calving. But if finishing at 16 months you will need to keep them bombing along (same for an bull finishinh at this age). There is no place for 250-300 kgs calf at housing in your sustem you will need to be hitting 360-400kgs at housing and 550-600 at finishing.

Advantages easy calving , early maturing and a hardy calf at birth. Belgian Blues, Charlois and suffock lambs often do there best to die at birth

while i believe limosouin are probabley the best all round breed , heres the thing , i was kind of hoping to avoid feeding much creep during the sucking - grazing season , then beging feeding meal in earnest once the bulls go into the shed , thats why i thought the angus or hereford was a good idea , granted they will never weigh what the limosouin will but from not having to dehorn to a lower maintanence beast , i thought bull beef was the one area where the traditional breeds achieved their potential

ps , will limosouin out of AAX need dehorning ?

blue5000

About 1/4 of them won't have horns. Bet you're more confused now than when you started. Are you buying a bull or using AI? I think you should have started a poll......

himwdah

our system is heading for hol/hereford cow to angus maternal bull, then the heifer calves onto limo this year for 2/3 calving and then ch for the ones it suits, with poor hol/hereford going to ch to end of econimic life, hopefully few limo/aa heifers for varity from sellect cows, change aa to shorthorn or hereford for replacemnt purposes but limo and ch for market.

ran aa and shorthorn and ch last year, big lose in the male shorthorn calves but cracking heifer replacements by the look of it so headed for one of the three native breeds for replacements to be run and two terminals.

cant see why aa and limo wouldnt match, yes people that like the natives wouldnt agree but its profit im looking and if its easy calving for heifers why not, if the moether has trouble calving im unlikely to keep her calf unless it has happened to all of that bulled batch-bull at fault not cow.

tismesoitis

johnpawl wrote: »

Have those bulls much ration eaten?

200 -250 kgs 1kg per day from about 3 mts old then up to about 3kgs for the last month. 70 - 80 euros worth well spent imo.

johnpawl

tismesoitis wrote: »

200 -250 kgs 1kg per day from about 3 mts old then up to about 3kgs for the last month. 70 - 80 euros worth well spent imo.

Best of luck with them let us know how you get on

sean_wayne

hello again , milkman here

i had to re reg , the mods around this place make the nazis look soft , got site banned for offending a mod a while back and they keep turfing me out

appreciate all the feedback

i just have one more question

i plan to bull my angus heifers in april of next year , they will be near two years old at that stage , ive decided to go with a limousin bull for the long term but my brother has a hereford bull which i could use while my animals are heifers

my question is this , would heifers calving down at two years and nine months be able to calve a limosuin or should i use my brothers hereford

if i did go with a limosuin from the start , i would probabley buy one at the upcoming sale in durrow , looked at the limo website and their are several bulls with very high scores , beit SBV , maternal index , terminal etc , would be prepared to spend up to 5 k and would keep away from bulls with a poor calving easy index while trying to aim for high terminal index score

ps , keep replying even i get banned which i will eventually :mad: