installing solid fuel stove in house that has gas central heating???

babystrawberry

Hi
I recently went looking for quotes on installing stove in the house. I have gas central heating though and the guy I rang said that it is not advised to have a stove in a house with gas, think it was for safety issues??

Is this true or am i being taken for a fool?!

Thanos

You can have a stove and Gas both running your radiators and hot water tank but it can be a little more complex.
Most installers will say you need to have a double set of pipes for it or some such (at least that is what i have been told)
I want to get in either a normal fire back boiler or stove one. I think most houses with gas have a closed system and you need to be careful of these as pressure can build if you have the two going at the same time.
My dad has gas and a fire back boiler but it is an open system (which i think makes it a little less efficient but it is not going to blow.

jimjimt

Hi All,
you can install a solid fuel stove and combine it into a heating system with a gas boiler or oil boiler. All done safely with the use of a plate heat exchanger about 30 kw should be suffice. This will keep the gas boiler and radiators pressurized. It will keep the solid fuel stove open vented and not interfering with the gas boiler.
Your best bet is to locate a RGII gas installer who also is a fully qualified plumber to carry out such a task. Don't be afraid to ask for qualifications on both gas and plumbing.

If you google "plate heat exchanger" you can investigate further.

take care,

jimjimt

jimjimt

jimjimt wrote: »

Hi All,
you can install a solid fuel stove and combine it into a heating system with a gas boiler or oil boiler. All done safely with the use of a plate heat exchanger about 30 kw should be suffice. This will keep the gas boiler and radiators pressurized. It will keep the solid fuel stove open vented and not interfering with the gas boiler.
Your best bet is to locate a RGII gas installer who also is a fully qualified plumber to carry out such a task. Don't be afraid to ask for qualifications on both gas and plumbing.

If you google "plate heat exchanger" you can investigate further.

take care,

jimjimt

A secondary heat can at times have a negative impact on a gas boiler, it can lead to over heating issues and possible pcb issues as a boiler can struggle to dissipate heat leading to higher than designed return tempertures, no manufacture I know would standby a heat source the wasn't thermostatically controlled and it can effect the warranty.

A twin coil cylinder is the industry standard and anything else is down to the skill of the installer, I have walked a way from numerious stove install that haven't worked and caused the boiler to fail, i will add though that I don't get to see the installs that work.

jimjimt

A secondary heat can at times have a negative impact on a gas boiler, it can lead to over heating issues and possible pcb issues as a boiler can struggle to dissipate heat leading to higher than designed return tempertures, no manufacture I know would standby a heat source the wasn't thermostatically controlled and it can effect the warranty.

A twin coil cylinder is the industry standard and anything else is down to the skill of the installer, I have walked a way from numerious stove install that haven't worked and caused the boiler to fail, i will add though that I don't get to see the installs that work.

What you say in most cases is true. But a solid fuel stove is very controllable. You have to think beyond a single pipe thermostat. Perhaps a second pipe stat on the stove to use as a heat dump to a zone. A third pipe stat on the stove to trigger a relay and shut down the gas boiler gracefully while the stove disperses it heat load.
Perhaps a bit extreme in smaller houses but a system zone manifold can work wonders for controlling many different heat sources.
The use of a low loss header.
The use of buffer tank or accumulator tank.
The use of a twin coil cylinder is just a way for the stove to heat hot water but as such has no way of controlling the stove. In some cases it is not practical to get pipe work back to the hot press or too far to heat the hot water cylinder.

shane0007

Solid fuel is only controllable to a point. What must be considered is the "FAIL SAFE" mode which solid fuel cannot achieve. All sources of heating such as oil & gas, apart from oil vaporising, should they fail, will fail to safe, i.e. fail to the off position.

We must always consider the worst case scenario such as power failure or pump failure. How will the heat be safely dissipated then?

I myself do not like to combine gas and solid fuel, except where the waters are not mixed as the solid fuel side will overheat at intervals, re-oxygenating the system. This leads to sludge which generally destroys gas boiler heat exchangers. Fine with oil due to completely different heat exchanger make up.

jeni

This is our first winter with a solid fuel stove, we love it, the heat in the house is amazing, we dont have a back boiler one though, so we have the gas on for mayb twenty mins a day to heat the water, other than that the house is warm enough with just the stove

jimjimt

Solid fuel is only controllable to a point. What must be considered is the "FAIL SAFE" mode which solid fuel cannot achieve. All sources of heating such as oil & gas, apart from oil vaporising, should they fail, will fail to safe, i.e. fail to the off position.

We must always consider the worst case scenario such as power failure or pump failure. How will the heat be safely dissipated then?

I myself do not like to combine gas and solid fuel, except where the waters are not mixed as the solid fuel side will overheat at intervals, re-oxygenating the system. This leads to sludge which generally destroys gas boiler heat exchangers. Fine with oil due to completely different heat exchanger make up.

Thats the beauty and safety of a plate heat exchanger. The waters do not mix. If the stove overheats it will not over heat into the heating system or gas boiler.
If a installer is sensible enough to use a bigger than a 10 gallon f+e tank plenty of safety for the boiler to over heat in to 20 or 30 gallon f+e tank (and not sludge the system long term). As long as the fire is not refuel during the power failure all will be fine.
You can even get pressurized solid fuel stoves and back boilers. For safety a cooling coil is in the boiler to allow mains water to pass through and cool down the stove/boiler if required. The same simple technology that is in most biomass boilers. Options are endless.

shane0007

jimjimt wrote: »

Thats the beauty and safety of a plate heat exchanger. The waters do not mix. If the stove overheats it will not over heat into the heating system or gas boiler.

Where is the plate exchanger and what is it doing?

jimjimt wrote: »

If a installer is sensible enough to use a bigger than a 10 gallon f+e tank plenty of safety for the boiler to over heat in to 20 or 30 gallon f+e tank (and not sludge the system long term).

I agree larger f & e expansion should be installed but should be sized for the size of the output of the total kw input of all heat sources.

jimjimt wrote: »

You can even get pressurized solid fuel stoves and back boilers. For safety a cooling coil is in the boiler to allow mains water to pass through and cool down the stove/boiler if required. The same simple technology that is in most biomass boilers. Options are endless.

Yes I am aware of these being brought into Ireland by a number of companies. They are standard in Germany but with a certification process. With no Building Control or Certification Procedure in Ireland, for me, these systems are a time bomb waiting to go off. Many installers can't get their head around the basic gravity system never mind throw in it being pressurised and cooled with mains.

jimjimt

Where is the plate exchanger and what is it doing?

Yes I am aware of these being brought into Ireland by a number of companies. They are standard in Germany but with a certification process. With no Building Control or Certification Procedure in Ireland, for me, these systems are a time bomb waiting to go off. Many installers can't get their head around the basic gravity system never mind throw in it being pressurised and cooled with mains.

We do have certification procedure for products in Ireland which is enforced.We do have building regulations just the slight problem of not re-enforced very well if at all in some cases. Which is left to the engineer or architect conscious to approve or not.

That is why I recommend a RGII that is a fully qualified plumber with experience. For RGII do not do solid fuel stove training or plumbing training or you not have to be qualified at plumbing to become RGII. If a RGII person was to tackle the stove he would be going against the ethos of carry out what they are not train for or certified for. The same applies for a plumber who is not gas registered leave the gas to RGII !!

The last stove I went to correct was installed by a retired school teacher, the one previous a tv and areial installer, bless them both. I would blame the house holder not looking for qualifications. Any genuie person will take pride in being asked. Then it is up to the householder if they want the cable guy or plumber to do the install. But as a bounus you could get RTE on your stove.

In most retrofit stove installs you can forget about about a gravity system and will have to go fully pumped. As gravity will only work successfully over a short distance and the cylinder sited correctly. The key is to get the expansion pipe into attic shortly after the stove for safety. Connect your cylinder before the plate heat exchanger and perhaps a rad or two.Use multi stats to control. After that just treat the plate exchanger as a third boiler and clean it at least every 5 years. I have some in longer still working and not cleaned.
Dont forget,
Sludge is a by product of a badly install or leaking system. Sludge has no preference to oil, gas or solid fuel.
I took out a 30 year back boiler and fitted a recondition Stanley early this year. The lady did not want new rads or pipework or even a flush out. I was told "it works just fine as it is". The water was just black which is a healthy sign but no sludge. Also it was a one pipe system and still is. All rads still heating top to toe after 30 years +.