Daniels vs P&D the ART debate

theboyblunder

Ive been thinking about this recently. Lots of people follow one of these two plans.

The general feeling you get is that people think that Daniels (A plan) is more 'advanced', but im not sure if this is backed up by much.

There was an interesting 'marathon plan by debate' thread earlier, but I thought a more focused one on these two plans alone might be interesting aspeople start to wonder about spring marathons.

What do people think are the advantages/disadvantages of both? You dont have to have run both to contribute, just saying what you liked/disliked about a plan would be useful. Any coaches on here - your input would be great.

My two cents

From my own experience (in hindsight) the Daniels (followed twice) plan left me overcooked on race day. I got way faster over 10 miles - half marathon, but really reached my peak 6 weeks to one month out and didnt run to expectations. The speed sessions are really good, but there are lots of opportunities to take sneaky rests (in between chunks at T pace and E pace etc), which break up your flow and allow recovery (admittedly maybe I just shouldnt have taken breaks!). In addition some of the midweek runs towards the end of the programme are very, very tough.

Recently I followed P&D (70 mpw, 18 weeks plan that I joined with 14 weeks to go). I felt that I got stronger more than faster as the programme progressed. At the beginning I wondered about why there wasnt more speedwork, but I felt that the midweek long runs (up to 15 miles) really helped, as did the longer continuous threshold pace runs and race-sharpening towards the end. I definitely felt stronger toeing the line than I did doing Daniels, depsite starting from a lower fitness base at the beginning of the programme. It may be that P&D suits me more than Daniels, but would be interested to hear what others think.

SWL

theboyblunder wrote: »

Ive been thinking about this recently. Lots of people follow one of these two plans.

The general feeling you get is that people think that Daniels (A plan) is more 'advanced', but im not sure if this is backed up by much.

There was an interesting 'marathon plan by debate' thread earlier, but I thought a more focused one on these two plans alone might be interesting aspeople start to wonder about spring marathons.

What do people think are the advantages/disadvantages of both? You dont have to have run both to contribute, just saying what you liked/disliked about a plan would be useful. Any coaches on here - your input would be great.

My two cents

From my own experience (in hindsight) the Daniels (followed twice) plan left me overcooked on race day. I got way faster over 10 miles - half marathon, but really reached my peak 6 weeks to one month out and didnt run to expectations. The speed sessions are really good, but there are lots of opportunities to take sneaky rests (in between chunks at T pace and E pace etc), which break up your flow and allow recovery (admittedly maybe I just shouldnt have taken breaks!). In addition some of the midweek runs towards the end of the programme are very, very tough.

Recently I followed P&D (70 mpw, 18 weeks plan that I joined with 14 weeks to go). I felt that I got stronger more than faster as the programme progressed. At the beginning I wondered about why there wasnt more speedwork, but I felt that the midweek long runs (up to 15 miles) really helped, as did the longer continuous threshold pace runs and race-sharpening towards the end. I definitely felt stronger toeing the line than I did doing Daniels, depsite starting from a lower fitness base at the beginning of the programme. It may be that P&D suits me more than Daniels, but would be interested to hear what others think.

I have used both, like you for a marathon plan my instinct and preference is to follow P&D for shorter stuff I prefer to use Daniels,however I can’t give you concrete results to back one plan over the other whichis probably what you are looking for.

Krusty_Clown

I reckon there's room for both. I think it was Clearlier who suggested that if you wanted to work on endurance, then Daniels was your man. If however speed was the main focus to get you where you needed to be, then P&D might be the suggested path.

Personally, I have found significant benefit from moving from one style of program to the other. Not saying that Daniels is better (at some point I will likely go back to a P&D style plan), but rather, at specific points in your running career (hobby!) you would benefit from one or the other approach. I'd imagine that there are benefits (beyond combating boredom) of moving from one style to the next as they tackle strength and endurance in different ways. The general philosophies (rigid program versus flexibility) may also suit at a specific point in your life.

Clearlier

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I reckon there's room for both. I think it was Clearlier who suggested that if you wanted to work on endurance, then Daniels was your man. If however speed was the main focus to get you where you needed to be, then P&D might be the suggested path.

Personally, I have found significant benefit from moving from one style of program to the other. Not saying that Daniels is better (at some point I will likely go back to a P&D style plan), but rather, at specific points in your running career (hobby!) you would benefit from one or the other approach. I'd imagine that there are benefits (beyond combating boredom) of moving from one style to the next as they tackle strength and endurance in different ways. The general philosophies (rigid program versus flexibility) may also suit at a specific point in your life.

I think it was the other way around actually (or at least it should have been :eek:):D

I do see P&D as being more suitable for beginning/inexperienced/low mileage runners because of the greater emphasis on developing a base and the more prescriptive nature of the schedules. 90%+ of people running a marathon will get more bang from their buck by focusing on their aerobic development than by focusing on their speed. That said if I were to follow a P&D plan again I would probably modify it by including a (not too demanding) speed session once every 3 weeks or so.

Daniels plan is much more marathon specific but IMO you really should have reasonably good endurance before heading into phase 2 and beyond. If you don't then you either won't get as much out of the sessions as you would from developing your base ala P&D or you'll get injured and possibly both.

So my relatively simplistic take on it is that if you are new to running or have an underdeveloped aerobic system P&D is the way to go. If you are an experienced runner with a well developed base then Daniels will give you that extra bit of specificity required to run a PB.

One last point is that I firmly believe that it's better to run a manageable plan well than a tough plan poorly.

P.S. I like Krusty's point about switching between the plan particularly if you are moving straight from one marathon cycle to the next although in an ideal world most of us would find the time to focus on improving 5k/10k speed and run one marathon a year.

woodchopper

Daniels advanced plan is 24 weeks. The problem here is that one would need to be starting from scratch in order to fully justify a 24 week build up. A modification of Rosa's Italian methodology is perfect for anyone trying to run under or around 3 hours.

6 weeks 5/10k Specific training with a long run eg. 15-18 miles.

8 weeks Marathon Specific Training including taper.

This is around 14 weeks top and wont leave you peaking to early as the specific marathon work is 3-6 weeks out from a marathon. If anything you really should not be ready to race a marathon 4 weeks out. The problem with Daniels as I have the book beside me in that in Week 13 there is a 22 mile run with the middle 16 at marathon pace with a hard middle and last mile. This is far too early in my opinion to be doing this sort of workout. In the Rosa method variations of this workout are done much much later as in the last 3-4 weeks not 11 weeks out.

average_runner

Only ever did the P&D plans but i bought both books and a few others.

Interesting last night I was researching more on plans and found this:

http://fellrnr.com/wiki/A_Comparison_of_Marathon_Training_Plans


Take what you want from this, i ain't preaching about any of them.

My plan for first half next year is to try the Jack Daniels 5-15k plan but i do like the look of the FIRST plan too, which i might try some year.

I think the best approach is to mix and match, including mcmillans plan and write your own plan, which i will do for new york next year hopefully.

Micilin Muc

P&D should prescribe more races to gauge fitness. Currently there are races in Week 12,14 & 16. If Daniels says it takes 6 weeks to move up one VDOT, there should probably be a race in Week 6 of P&D's schedules.

I have done the 18-week version of both 33-55 and 55-70 and was very impressed with my progress. But by the time I had run a race, it was too late for me to re-assess my training paces. What's the point of being able to gauge fitness if the taper is only 3 weeks away?

Clearlier

Micilin Muc wrote: »

P&D should prescribe more races to gauge fitness. Currently there are races in Week 12,14 & 16. If Daniels says it takes 6 weeks to move up one VDOT, there should probably be a race in Week 6 of P&D's schedules.

I have done the 18-week version of both 33-55 and 55-70 and was very impressed with my progress. But by the time I had run a race, it was too late for me to re-assess my training paces. What's the point of being able to gauge fitness if the taper is only 3 weeks away?

P&D doesn't prescribe paces though - they prescribe effort and Heart rate but not pace. If you use a HRM you can really see the difference. I've been considering about how best to lock in that improvement though as I often found that after the initial boost I regressed slightly (albeit plateauing at a slightly higher level). Running faster a bit more often and gradually but slightly increasing pace and effort over the 6 weeks are the two options I've come up with. The former seems more sensible but I haven't drawn any conclusions yet.

P.S. The reason IMO that P&D don't schedule a race at that point is that it would interfere with training.

jfh

interesting thread & something i'll be contemplating as i move from my 10km training, listening to charlie spedding on marathon talk & he suggests that 10 -12 weeks is enough specific marathon training. he says that most people are overcooked going into their marathon. The daniels plan is 24 weeks, know P&D have different plans depending on weeks & mileage but think they suggest 24 weeks too.
So this is a queation to those who have completed either, would one be fresher after 12weeks max?
is 24 weeks not too much?

theboyblunder

To be fair to Daniels, the first 6 weeks is base training. Easy running to increase mileage - not nearly as tough as the rest of it. In addition, the first few weeks of 'proper' training arent too hard either.

Still, 18 weeks is a long time to stay focused on one goal......

TRR

woodchopper wrote: »

Daniels advanced plan is 24 weeks. The problem here is that one would need to be starting from scratch in order to fully justify a 24 week build up. A modification of Rosa's Italian methodology is perfect for anyone trying to run under or around 3 hours.

6 weeks 5/10k Specific training with a long run eg. 15-18 miles.

8 weeks Marathon Specific Training including taper.

This is around 14 weeks top and wont leave you peaking to early as the specific marathon work is 3-6 weeks out from a marathon. If anything you really should not be ready to race a marathon 4 weeks out. The problem with Daniels as I have the book beside me in that in Week 13 there is a 22 mile run with the middle 16 at marathon pace with a hard middle and last mile. This is far too early in my opinion to be doing this sort of workout. In the Rosa method variations of this workout are done much much later as in the last 3-4 weeks not 11 weeks out.

Has hell frozen over ????? I'm in total agreement with woodchopper

The bit in bold above is very similar on what I plan on doing for my next shot at a marathon. Would probably stretch marathon specific section out to 10 and maybe even 11 weeks though but that's just because I'd like an extra LSR or two in as strength is one of my weaknesses. I've never followed P&D. I attempted to follow Daniels and it ran me into the ground. I do like some of his sessions though so I mix and match them with what I know works best for me.

average_runner

jfh wrote: »

interesting thread & something i'll be contemplating as i move from my 10km training, listening to charlie spedding on marathon talk & he suggests that 10 -12 weeks is enough specific marathon training. he says that most people are overcooked going into their marathon. The daniels plan is 24 weeks, know P&D have different plans depending on weeks & mileage but think they suggest 24 weeks too.
So this is a queation to those who have completed either, would one be fresher after 12weeks max?
is 24 weeks not too much?

I did the 12 week P&D 55 mile week plan and got a pb of 5 mins. But i do think if i did the 18 week one i would of gone better

ecoli

I have to say that both Clearier and Woodchopper make vey good points.

I think in order to do Daniels successfully you need to be have a very solid endurance base worked up.

WC makes a point of throwing 15-18 milers into a 10k phase pre marathon specific. I think this is a crucial point. The 10k phase is for lowering your lactic threshold and developing good economy at quicker paces which can be carried into marathon specific phase but also developing the strength to handle marathon training. There is no point in throwing in the brutal Daniels style marathon sessions when your body is still reacting the the stimulus provided simply by an Easy Long run. You need to have trained your body to the point where it does not take days to recover from A LSR only then will you recieve the full benefits of these sessions without the trade off in terms of high injury risk.

I also agree that there does seem to be a tendency in Daniels to overcook it simply due to such demanding sessions so early on. Again the first half of the Overall training block (normally 6-10 weeks) which people use as a 10k gets the body prepared in terms of strength while the marathon phase works on taking this strength and developing the ability to sustain target paces.

P & D on the other hand works on the stimulus of a long run and moves to marathon specific however for me the Speedwork is the crux here. This plan works well for lower mileage people in my opinion as it works on all round running fitness but I think there are too many vo2 max style sessions too late in the plan which are counter productive in terms of training the body for glycogen depletion.

Like tRR I have dabbled with the sessions and find them beneficial sparingly but physically would break down if I tried to follow the full plan

average_runner

ecoli wrote: »

I have to say that both Clearier and Wordchopper make vey good points.

I think in order to do Daniels successfully you need to be have a very solid endurance base worked up.

WC makes a point of throwing 15-18 milers into a 10k phase pre marathon specific. I think this is a crucial point. The 10k phase is for lowering your lactic threshold and developing good economy at quicker paces which can be carried into marathon specific phase but also developing the strength to handle marathon training. There is no point in throwing in the brutal Daniels style marathon sessions when your body is still reacting the the stimulus provided simply by an Easy Long run. You need to have trained your body to the point where it does not take days to recover from A LSR only then will you recieve the full benefits of these sessions without the trade off in terms of high injury risk.

I also agree that there does seem to be a tendency in Daniels to overcook it simply due to such demanding sessions so early on. Again the first half of the Overall training block (normally 6-10 weeks) which people use as a 10k gets the body prepared in terms of strength while the marathon phase works on taking this strength and developing the ability to sustain target paces.

P & D on the other hand works on the stimulus of a long run and moves to marathon specific however for me the Speedwork is the crux here. This plan works well for lower mileage people in my opinion as it works on all round running fitness but I think there are too many vo2 max style sessions too late in the plan which are counter productive in terms of training the body for glycogen depletion.

Like tRR I have dabbled with the sessions and find them beneficial sparingly but physically would break down if I tried to follow the full plan

So Ecoli, what would you recommend as a good approach, maybe something like this?

Monday Medium Run
Tuesday Speed work or hill work
Wednesday Easy run
Thursday tempo or 8-10 miles
Fri Easy run
Sat LSR(some weeks with MP)


Your post above is very good and has me thinking even more

ecoli

average_runner wrote: »

So Ecoli, what would you recommend as a good approach, maybe something like this?

Monday Medium Run
Tuesday Speed work or hill work
Wednesday Easy run
Thursday tempo or 8-10 miles
Fri Easy run
Sat LSR(some weeks with MP)


Your post above is very good and has me thinking even more

Funnily enough this is very similar to the template of my training for a fundamental phase (have still to decided from here whether I am going specifically towards 10k or marathon in the spring)

Monday Easy
Tuesday 5k/10k work
Wednesday Easy
Thursday Short Tempo (HMP) or Long (MP)
Fri Easy
Sat Easy
Sunday Long Run easy (18-20)/ Mid length Steady (circa 15)

There is a bit of flexibility in terms of going Wed/Sat sessions with an easy LSR but effectively 5 quality days over a 14 week cycle (6 if you include and the Easy LSR)

This is roughly a 14 week cycle followed by a 10 week specific block for target race. In terms of the 14 weeks however the sessions/ miles are progressive so to prevent you peaking early or going stale

(Very much in line with Mark Hadleys methodology)

average_runner

ecoli wrote: »

Funnily enough this is very similar to the template of my training for a fundamental phase (have still to decided from here whether I am going specifically towards 10k or marathon in the spring)

Monday Easy
Tuesday 5k/10k work
Wednesday Easy
Thursday Short Tempo (HMP) or Long (MP)
Fri Easy
Sat Easy
Sunday Long Run easy (18-20)/ Mid length Steady (circa 15)

There is a bit of flexibility in terms of going Wed/Sat sessions with an easy LSR but effectively 5 quality days over a 14 week cycle (6 if you include and the Easy LSR)

This is roughly a 14 week cycle followed by a 10 week specific block for target race. In terms of the 14 weeks however the sessions/ miles are progressive so to prevent you peaking early or going stale

(Very much in line with Mark Hadleys methodology)

Thanks for that. Will have a look to see if Hadley has a book, just love reading this kinda of stuff.

woodchopper

average_runner wrote: »

Thanks for that. Will have a look to see if Hadley has a book, just love reading this kinda of stuff.

He has a website called Maximum Performance Running. He has all his training plans in there. Luck would have it he is currently talking about a marathon training cycle.