is coaching always necessary

MungoMan

is it possible for someone to take up golf and become quite good with no coaching whatsoever ?
I'm talking about people with natural flare for golf (assuming there is such a thing).

Or is it the case that every really good player (by really good I mean scratch or better) has had lessons at some stage ?

Alrite Chief

Yeah of course. If you are playing golf you are always going to come in contact with good players which you will learn from. If you have natural ability you will apply all these things to your game. However if you get coaching you will be miles better.

Whats the story? You not want to pay for lessons and get down to scratch?

Almaviva

No.
Coaching is almost always unnecessary.
Beyond a few basics, like not going down the hurling grip route for example, with golf, you either have it or you dont.
95% of coaching on the average handicappers is of no benefit. But people still go for lessons in the search to improve, but the effect will be no more than from the effort to choose the right tee, or buy the next 'golf swing secret found' book.
99.9% of coaching for elite golfers has no benefit to their swings, but the like it as a psychological crutch, and it satsfies their competitive drive to leave no stone unturned in the search for perfection.

Creasy_bear

The Masters champion has never had a lesson.

So to answer your question - No

MungoMan

Alrite Chief wrote: »

Whats the story? You not want to pay for lessons and get down to scratch?

me, ive had lots of lessons, but lack the natural ability to be a good player.

Senna

I've never had lessons and i would never take lessons. When i joined my current club there were 3 lessons free, but i never went to them.
I think they would probably mess up my swing in the short term, although they may help things down the road.
A mate of mine who did go to the lessons, walked into the first one and the "pro" started showing him a video of Tiger Woods swing:rolleyes: if i had of went i would have just walked out once he clicked play on the video.

GreeBo

Almaviva wrote: »

No.
Coaching is almost always unnecessary.
Beyond a few basics, like not going down the hurling grip route for example, with golf, you either have it or you dont.
95% of coaching on the average handicappers is of no benefit. But people still go for lessons in the search to improve, but the effect will be no more than from the effort to choose the right tee, or buy the next 'golf swing secret found' book.
99.9% of coaching for elite golfers has no benefit to their swings, but the like it as a psychological crutch, and it satsfies their competitive drive to leave no stone unturned in the search for perfection.

:eek:
Seriously?
I would have to say I totally disagree.
Take a look at the Haney Project for some examples of what a coach can do.
Does your opinion extend to other sports or just golf?

MP62

Creasy_bear wrote: »

The Masters champion has never had a lesson.

So to answer your question - No

Yea that old chestnut, if you believe that then you'll believe anything.

PGF

Almaviva wrote: »

you either have it or you dont.

Read about the talent myth. The people who have 'it' tend to have done more practice than the people who don't have 'it'.

saintastic

Almaviva wrote: »

No.
Coaching is almost always unnecessary.
Beyond a few basics, like not going down the hurling grip route for example, with golf, you either have it or you dont.
95% of coaching on the average handicappers is of no benefit. But people still go for lessons in the search to improve, but the effect will be no more than from the effort to choose the right tee, or buy the next 'golf swing secret found' book.
99.9% of coaching for elite golfers has no benefit to their swings, but the like it as a psychological crutch, and it satsfies their competitive drive to leave no stone unturned in the search for perfection.

I don't agree with this. McIlroy's game went off in the middle of the season having missed the cut in the US Open and he brought Michael Bannon full time on tour with him in June.

He won the USPGA in August and 2 Fed Ex Cup events and in my opinion, his game is back at his best.

I will flavour this by saying that I believe in lessons if you want to be a low single digit golfer. There will always be exception to the rule but I would guess that there is a fairly strong negative correlation between the number of lessons someone has taken and their handicap (i.e. more lessons = lower handicap).

thegolfer

I'm a great believer that there are always two sides to a coin.

Take Harrington, he has to practice morning noon and night, to maintain his swing and ability. I saw a video of him once in his early days, and the back of a barn he wouldn't hit, topping and shanking balls.

Then take Clarke, or Raymond Burns pure natural talent, feel golfers.

Whats common among each of these is that they all put in the practice, though some with natural talent, Burns and Clarke, then Harrington who had to work very hard, took on a lot of coaching.

The "talent myth" is very true, some lads just see a shot and play it. They just know, its just like breathing to them.
Others have to be told what to do, and sometimes it takes a while for the method to sink in.

Overall I find that the difference between a 5 h'cap and a scratch is 100 yards. The scratch and below work on the 100 yards and in, where as the 5 and above are not so diligent.

The more lessons = lower handicap, is not necessarily true.
As long as the practice is good quality practice, then it will become true.
Better off hitting 10 good wedges, than banging 50 balls everywhere. Its the quality of the practice

So to answer your question op, no coaching is not always needed, though age\ability depending, some direction can never hurt.

Ultimately course management and short game is where the money's at, and practice, practice, practice and then a little more practice.

PGF

Senna wrote: »

A mate of mine who did go to the lessons, walked into the first one and the "pro" started showing him a video of Tiger Woods swing:rolleyes: if i had of went i would have just walked out once he clicked play on the video.

I wanted to fix something on my car at the weekend. Looked at a video on youtube and then fixed the car. Worked a treat. What's wrong with learning by looking at a video of an expert?

GreeBo

PGF wrote: »

I wanted to fix something on my car at the weekend. Looked at a video on youtube and then fixed the car. Worked a treat. What's wrong with learning by looking at a video of an expert?

It totally depends on the scenario.
If the Pro is using the video to explain something then fine, if he is just showing the video then I can do that myself for free.
Needs context!

pinseeker

Id answer your question with a yes Mungoman.
Talent can get a person very far in sports without any help.If someone has perhaps hit a wall and they feel they have gone as low as they can then lessons certainly can improve you id say as long as your willing to stick with the changes.I can't stick to the same thing for 2 holes so lessons would be wasted ha

Senna

PGF wrote: »

I wanted to fix something on my car at the weekend. Looked at a video on youtube and then fixed the car. Worked a treat. What's wrong with learning by looking at a video of an expert?

OK, my example would be the same as; you watching a 3 minute video on how to strip and rebuild an engine and told "ok now you go and rebuild your own engine".

He put on a video of tiger woods and said "this is how you should swing a club" which is bollox, not one person he has coached could ever expect to swing a club like tiger woods. He's a well know flute, he trys to completely change your swing rather than looking at your own swing and trying to make improvement.

PARlance

Almaviva wrote: »

No.
Coaching is almost always unnecessary.
Beyond a few basics, like not going down the hurling grip route for example, with golf, you either have it or you dont.
95% of coaching on the average handicappers is of no benefit. But people still go for lessons in the search to improve, but the effect will be no more than from the effort to choose the right tee, or buy the next 'golf swing secret found' book.
99.9% of coaching for elite golfers has no benefit to their swings, but the like it as a psychological crutch, and it satsfies their competitive drive to leave no stone unturned in the search for perfection.

Maybe people should spend all their time perfecting the fine art of putting an alignment marker on their ball instead?

Almaviva wrote: »

Have tried it a few times but find it impossible to get a sufficiently accurate line with exactly the same weight distrbution of ink around the ball. Really knocks the ball out of kilter and becomes impossible to control, and behave eratically. Same reason I dont mark my ball. The chances of putting your dots, x, etc on the ball without disrupting its balance are too high. Golf is tough enough without trying to play with an unbalanced ball.

From http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056675493

God bless my memory!!!

the_syco

Although some people can master a skill without coaching, getting a small bit of coaching can improve your game quicker if you feel you are not doing that well.

IMO, less of the "do what I do" videos, and more of a 1 on 1 session (or as part of a "golf class") with a pro that will tell you what you are doing wrong. Simple things such as how you hold the club compared to how you should hold the club, or a change in your stance can dramatically improve your game.

tommyombomb

Been playing properly this year. When I started I said I would never get a lesson and try and be the Happy Gilmore of my club.

After about 20rounds of golf this year 40hrs on the driving range and abouy 10rounds of pitch and putt I am beginning to wonder

I have pulled together a few good rounds (18 over on a par71 course) but I am beginning to wonder about getting some couching in terms of holding the club(always worry I am holding it too tight which stiffens up my swing). Also learning what I am doing right when the ball goes well.

Going to give it another year of practice and play and of I don't get more consistent I will give in and get some lessons. From what I have heard from people it's the best way to improve quickly.

I kinda find it seems like cheating(eg when I was younger you could get cheats for a computer game which made it easier). It seems the same in golf. I take great pleasure from figuring out the game from trial and error and feel it is the best part of it.

Maybe I am mad but I think it would be pretty frustrating having a handicap of 5 or 6(doubt this will ever be a concern of mine) and trying to improve but I am at a level where imrovement is a possibility every now and then.

FixdePitchmark

tommyombomb wrote: »

Been playing properly this year. When I started I said I would never get a lesson and try and be the Happy Gilmore of my club.

After about 20rounds of golf this year 40hrs on the driving range and abouy 10rounds of pitch and putt I am beginning to wonder

I have pulled together a few good rounds (18 over on a par71 course) but I am beginning to wonder about getting some couching in terms of holding the club(always worry I am holding it too tight which stiffens up my swing). Also learning what I am doing right when the ball goes well.

Going to give it another year of practice and play and of I don't get more consistent I will give in and get some lessons. From what I have heard from people it's the best way to improve quickly.

I kinda find it seems like cheating(eg when I was younger you could get cheats for a computer game which made it easier). It seems the same in golf. I take great pleasure from figuring out the game from trial and error and feel it is the best part of it.

Maybe I am mad but I think it would be pretty frustrating having a handicap of 5 or 6(doubt this will ever be a concern of mine) and trying to improve but I am at a level where imrovement is a possibility every now and then.

I did that for about 20 years - got to 12, but you get to a point where you don't get any better.

But you can do what you are saying and have done well so far, but it will be much slower.

PGF

Senna wrote: »

He put on a video of tiger woods and said "this is how you should swing a club" which is bollox, not one person he has coached could ever expect to swing a club like tiger woods. He's a well know flute

You seem to have a bias against this professional (which may or may not be warranted). He might not use video effectively but others can and do. That shouldn't lead to never taking a lesson...

Senna wrote: »

I've never had lessons and i would never take lessons.

Why can't people swing like Tiger? An older man or lady might not swing at 120 mph or have the flexibility he has but surely they can grip the club like Tiger? Can they not have a one piece takeaway like Tiger? The basic movement through impact is generally very similar across all good golfers regardless of physique, gender or age.

Dr_Colossus

tommyombomb wrote: »

Been playing properly this year. When I started I said I would never get a lesson and try and be the Happy Gilmore of my club.

After about 20rounds of golf this year 40hrs on the driving range and abouy 10rounds of pitch and putt I am beginning to wonder

I have pulled together a few good rounds (18 over on a par71 course) but I am beginning to wonder about getting some couching in terms of holding the club(always worry I am holding it too tight which stiffens up my swing). Also learning what I am doing right when the ball goes well.

Going to give it another year of practice and play and of I don't get more consistent I will give in and get some lessons. From what I have heard from people it's the best way to improve quickly.

I kinda find it seems like cheating(eg when I was younger you could get cheats for a computer game which made it easier). It seems the same in golf. I take great pleasure from figuring out the game from trial and error and feel it is the best part of it.

My advise, don't give it another year. Get lessons now and use the winter and time on the driving range to practice efficiently and engrain any swing changes until second nature. Personally I don't see the sense in trying to do it alone without lessons. Picking up bad habits while chopping and changing as part of the trial and error process can take months again to iron out. Much easier to learn things correctly from the start and save yourself alot of time and money in the process. Taking lessons certainly isn't cheating either (well maybe it'll cheat you out of some of the frustration and heart ache the game can bring but that's a good thing surely?). The game is hard enough as is and no matter how good you are there is always room for improvement which is part of the appeal.

tommyombomb wrote: »

Maybe I am mad but I think it would be pretty frustrating having a handicap of 5 or 6(doubt this will ever be a concern of mine) and trying to improve but I am at a level where imrovement is a possibility every now and then.

That's a poor attitude, is there any physical or medical condition which can prevent you from being a 5 or 6 handicap? If not then such a handicap shouldn't just be what other good golfers play to but what you should set as your target be it in one or three years time. Furthermore once you approach your target then adjust it lower and improve on that 5 or 6 handicap.

spacecoyote

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

My advise, don't give it another year. Get lessons now and use the winter and time on the driving range to practice efficiently and engrain any swing changes until second nature. Personally I don't see the sense in trying to do it alone without lessons. Picking up bad habits while chopping and changing as part of the trial and error process can take months again to iron out. Much easier to learn things correctly from the start and save yourself alot of time and money in the process. Taking lessons certainly isn't cheating either (well maybe it'll cheat you out of some of the frustration and heart ache the game can bring but that's a good thing surely?). The game is hard enough as is and no matter how good you are there is always room for improvement which is part of the appeal.

Have to agree with this. I think you'll be amazed to see just how quickly & easily a good pro can spot a flaw in your set up that you might never notice yourself.

If you look at any sport you have coaching, so its certainly not cheating.

As has been said before, maybe you can get there without taking a lesson, but going for a couple of them should make sure you are working smartly on your game when putting in your practice time.

Almaviva

GreeBo wrote: »

:eek:
Seriously?
I would have to say I totally disagree.
Take a look at the Haney Project for some examples of what a coach can do.
Does your opinion extend to other sports or just golf?

Meant to get back to you on that.


Yes, very seriously on this issue (as for unbalanced ball markings however....;)).

A few clarifications first:
- the figures are of course guesses to illustrate the point, but qualitatively I would believe them indicating the right principal.
- I am not referring to the very basics of the game ( a standard grip, stance, the basic gist of the swing). The absolute beginner of course can benefit from being set off in broadly the orthodox direction. About 3 out of 4 regular golfers of any handicap have this knowledge though.
- I dont refer to the full spectrum of shot types that a golfer might have in his repertoire. Most golfers could increase the range of shots if they have the interest to learn or be thought them. And so can benefit from coaching on this front.

But on what I take to be the core thrust of the OP question, believe the following:

- despite the millions who have played golf, studied it, spent their lives coaching it, studying the physics or it, the biomechanics of it, and the athletic skills or style of the greats who have as good as conquered it : No one understands the golf swing. The almost complete lack of understanding of what makes a good swing is a really most striking failure in sport.

Big Picture :
- various swings over the years have been taken as the 'correct' way to do it. Copy it and you too will play like Whoever. Generally that of the sensation of each generation : Vardon, Jones, Hogan, Palmer, Nicklaus, Watson, Faldo, Woods. But look at how different each of those swings are to each other. Add in other really world class major winners to the mix : Hagen, Snead, Demaret, Trevino, Miller, Lyle, Floyd, Azinger, and you are looking at some very 'wrong' swings that 'shouldnt' work. But they did. And you can move to some really wierd swings of golfers who are below the rung of multiple majors winners(Darcy, Bruen notable examples just from Ireland), yet they still played golf to the level of one in a million.

- then look at from the otherside. If a scratch game (just taking that as a kind of mythical 'mission accomplished', many thousands play to that level, yet the vaste majority are still leagues away from tour level), could be coached, then many more would play to it and it would be a common route : "work hard, do it according to this template, do what our coach tells you" and you will play scratch-ish golf. Yet only a tiny minority does. Handicaps are skewed to an average of 16 worldwide despite all the lessons, the custom fitting, the range pounding, the gizmo purchasing, the 'should I be playing the ProV1 or the ProV1x discussions', etc., etc.

So.......some can just do it......and some cant. And no one knows how to make those who cant, to can. Nor even has a notion what makes the difference and what one should try to do to be able to improve. Or even if it is possible to really improve.

Some personal observations :
I have never seen a player, who, playing on any regular basis for a couple of years and had a reasonably (+/- 2 shots about any given handicap), despite any amount of work or coaching, then made a serious 'step' change in level, i.e transformed their game and cut it by 10 or more strokes. Most settle into a given handicap range of about 5 shots, which they can keep for most of their lives. And I am talking about every range : from a scratch golfer at age 16 who went on a US college scholarship - and came back the same golfer, to the good golfer who hits Senior cup level in his teens and never really wavers from a 3 or 4, to the 10 handicapper, to the guy who takes it up, takes the lessons, and never gets lower than 21. And the vast majority in the 15-20 range. But from the above, this should not be surprising. Golf pros (or anyone else) do not know what really makes a good golf swing. And if they dont even know what they should be teaching (of coarse they teach some given standard of the day, but that is only a fiction), what chance have they of actual transferring usful information to you the golfer, let alone you the golfer learning something useful, being able to repeat it, and so playing better golf.

An interesting question now, after 100 years of mass worldwide golf playing, is not 'what is the correct way to swing the club' (though it would of course be interesting to solve that one too), but, 'why have we so singularly failed to know what really makes a good golf swing - and what can I do to try to get closer to that'.

PGF

Almaviva wrote: »

The almost complete lack of understanding of what makes a good swing is a really most striking failure in sport.

Eh? Plenty of people understand it and know exactly how it works. That the general golfer doesn't have the time or dedication to devote to the swing and perfect it doesn't mean that nobody understands it.

Almaviva wrote: »

despite all the lessons, the custom fitting, the range pounding, the gizmo purchasing, the 'should I be playing the ProV1 or the ProV1x discussions', etc., etc.

Most golfers don't get lessons, get custom fitted or practice all that much hence their handicaps don't change. That doesn't mean that lessons don't work.

Almaviva wrote: »

So.......some can just do it......and some cant. And no one knows how to make those who cant, to can. Nor even has a notion what makes the difference and what one should try to do to be able to improve. Or even if it is possible to really improve.

Are you serious? Who says no one knows? I know what allows people to become good golfers. Hard work and appropriate practice. Same with any endeavour in life.

Almaviva wrote: »

I have never seen a player, who, playing on any regular basis for a couple of years and had a reasonably (+/- 2 shots about any given handicap), despite any amount of work or coaching, then made a serious 'step' change in level,

There are a number of examples at my club.


To me it's like marathon running. The average marathon completion time is the same as it was 20 years ago. There has been no major improvement despite our vastly superior knowledge of sports science. Why is that? It's because the average Joe Soap doesn't have the time or dedication to train twice a day 7 days a week, ensure they have enough sleep, eat properly, get massages, cut out the alcohol etc.

You could say the same about tennis or really any other sport...

Almaviva

PGF wrote: »

Eh? Plenty of people understand it and know exactly how it works. That the general golfer doesn't have the time or dedication to devote to the swing and perfect it doesn't mean that nobody understands it.

I would still contend that no one understands it. They teach the visual surface of what they see in successful golfers, and what is accepted wisdom on what makes a good swing. But it is devoid of any true fundamentals that stand up to scientific scrutiny - the amount of out and out nonsense physics and fictions touted by most pros, and even most of the gurus who should be shot down for making money out of such garbage is shameful. A bit like creationist preachers in the US. They may have spend years stuying scripture, listening to other preachers, and really believe what they say. But that doesnt make it anything but bunkum. Anyone claiming to understand the golf swing is in the same category.

PGF wrote: »

Most golfers don't get lessons, get custom fitted or practice all that much hence their handicaps don't change. That doesn't mean that lessons don't work.

I guess neither of us have any concrete data on this. But my money would be on those getting custom fitted, lessons, doing all the practice, having swings, and games, much the same (withing a couple of shots) as had they done none of the above.

PGF wrote: »

To me it's like marathon running. The average marathon completion time is the same as it was 20 years ago. There has been no major improvement despite our vastly superior knowledge of sports science. Why is that? It's because the average Joe Soap doesn't have the time or dedication to train twice a day 7 days a week, ensure they have enough sleep, eat properly, get massages, cut out the alcohol etc.
You could say the same about tennis or really any other sport...

Golf seems unique though in presenting a mirage that 'finding the secret', or 'making a breakthrough', is indeed possible. And that is much of its fun. But pros (and club makers, shoe makers, ball makers, gizmo makers. etc) cash in on this 'illusion'. But they just dont understand the swing.

Hypothetical lesson: Jim Furyk or John Daly turn up to a pro who doesnt know them. They say they want to improve to make it on tour. They hit a few balls. Impressive. But the pro, if he had a true understanding of what was going on in their swings would say ; "I cant do anything for you. Just go and play. You can win majors with that swing". But not a single pro in the world would do this in that situation. He would say "well we will have to stop you swinging the club around your neck and down to the ground for a start or you will never have a chance", or "you wont make it with that two plane transition swing, thats for sure. We need go get you on plane". And they would go ahead, 'coaching' the image of what is believed to be the correct swing.....because they dont really know what they are at.

GreeBo

Almaviva wrote: »

But not a single pro in the world would do this in that situation. He would say "well we will have to stop you swinging the club around your neck and down to the ground for a start or you will never have a chance", or "you wont make it with that two plane transition swing, thats for sure. We need go get you on plane". And they would go ahead, 'coaching' the image of what is believed to be the correct swing.....because they dont really know what they are at.

I have to say I totally disagree.
If that was true then we wouldnt have an Eamonn Darcy, a John Daly, a Jim Furyk or even a Rickie Fowler. They all had lessons before they won on tour and didnt have their swings rebuilt
If this was true then there would be no personal swings.
Good teaching pros fix problems with swings, they dont just change them for the sake of it.
If Daly turned up and had a hook then they pro would try to get him to stop hooking, he wouldnt rebuild his entire swing for no reason.

The important part of the swing is a foot either side of the ball. If you get this bit right and can repeat it, especially under pressure then no one cares what the rest of it looks like.
Good teaching pros develop good swings, not pretty ones.

link_2007

I am in the 'coaching is necessary' camp. In fact I would say it is necessary more so than in any other sport I have ever played.

I played a lot of sports when I was younger - when living in England I played Rugby and schoolboy football for a professional club.

When we moved back to Ireland I played underage county hurling and football as well as playing plenty of other sports with friends just as a hobby. My point is I would consider myself naturally athletic. Anything that involved a ball just always felt very easy to me.

Because of this I was slightly naive and ignorant when I started playing golf. It wasn't that I thought I had a divine right to be good at it but I did have a mentality of 'how hard can it be'.

Well it turns out the answer is 'very'.

I have spent the last year hacking around, going up to the range and self diagnosing what I was doing wrong. There were times when it seemed to work and I would have a relatively good rounds but I never seemed to be making tangible improvements. There were also times when I looked like a blind octopus (the Boards outing in Athlone being the most obvious example).

I read the magazines and watched the youtube videos and couldn't understand why I was so bad at golf. I realise this sounds slightly arrogant (I don't mean for it to) but it was a new experience not being good at a sport, especially one that involved hitting a ball, and it certainly wasn't one I was enjoying.

I finally admitted defeat and booked some lessons (with Kevin Foy in Stepaside). I had my first one this morning and within 10 minutes it was very obvious that I had completely wasted the last year. Kevin made me address the ball as I normally would and then started twisting my hands, moving my legs etc. When he was finished he asked how I felt, "awful" I replied. "Well that's how you should be addressing the ball".

Stance, shoulders, grip, posture, club head..... All wrong.

I am sure once people have the basics some will excel easier than others but I also now believe that anyone starting to play golf should have a lesson or two before they go near a course. Don't make the same mistake that I did!

PGF

Almaviva wrote: »

most of the gurus who should be shot down for making money out of such garbage is shameful.

I agree with this to an extent but you can't tar EVERYBODY with the same brush.

Almaviva wrote: »

I guess neither of us have any concrete data on this.

I have 20 years of anecdotal evidence. People who put the work in and do the right things see the results. People who look for the quick fix of a new $400 driver do not.

Almaviva wrote: »

Golf seems unique though in presenting a mirage that 'finding the secret', or 'making a breakthrough', is indeed possible.

Golf is not unique. Every seen an add for '6 pack abs in 5 minutes'? 'Lose 20 pounds in a week'? Fitness sports have the same 'quick fix' scenarios as golf. Same target audience. People who want results but won't put the work in to get them.

Almaviva wrote: »

But not a single pro in the world would do this in that situation. .....because they dont really know what they are at.

You must have had some bad experiences with golf professionals to have such a bias against them. Again you're tarring them all with the same brush.

By the way... I have no vested interest in this. I'm not a pro! I've seen people get lessons and work hard and see positive results. I've seen 'natural golfers' stagnate at 3/4 handicap before getting lessons and getting down to scratch. I've also gotten lessons off crap professionals but you get bad advice in every walk of life (physios/doctors/computer engineers/mechanics/builders).

Almaviva

@link_2007. Agree fully with your experience on lessons. People should take lessons when they take up the game, or if messing at it for years, then decide to take it seriously. A few key pointers are worth getting. But 'coaching', as in on going, regular attention from a pro is as wasteful as the $400 driver 'gamechanger'.

PGF wrote: »

I agree with this to an extent but you can't tar EVERYBODY with the same brush.

I am not trying to tar anyone. My point is that nobody knows what really makes a good swing. Not that some do know but most sell snake oil.

PGF wrote: »

I have 20 years of anecdotal evidence. People who put the work in and do the right things see the results. People who look for the quick fix of a new $400 driver do not.

.
I have neary 30 years. But no point 'contesting' anecdotal evidence. Mine is no more valid than yours. Beyond observing generation of golfers, I have been for the lessons with a variety of pros, know many who have done the same, watched the pro scene, read (almost) anything worth reading on the swing. So I havent come to this point of view hastily.
And agree that the quick fix driver splurge is as wasteful as the lessons.

PGF wrote: »

Golf is not unique. Every seen an add for '6 pack abs in 5 minutes'? 'Lose 20 pounds in a week'? Fitness sports have the same 'quick fix' scenarios as golf. Same target audience. People who want results but won't put the work in to get them.

Disagree here, but you are countering a slightly different observation. My point is that golf is unique in that no one AT ALL can make your game. Sure, the 6 pack abs in 5 mins is a shill. But we do know how you could get 6 pack abs if you want to put in the effort and follow a regime. Weight training, muscle development (steroids if thats your thing), etc, are very well understood. And can be repeated.
A trainer would happily say that he can give you the muscles if you sign up that you will do what he specifies. But a golf pro wouldnt dream of signing any contract to improve your long game by even 5 shots (even to a guy off 20), even if you were contracted to do make every effort he wished. He would be faced with the reality that he doesnt really fundamentally know enough to commit himself. And would not be confident that he would succeed.

PGF wrote: »

You must have had some bad experiences with golf professionals to have such a bias against them. Again you're tarring them all with the same brush.

Not at all. Love golf in all its elements and have done for many years. And have been to and enjoyed lessons. Maybe even with too many pros. The advice rarely has much consistency. But as stated above, am basing my views on a lot more than just my personal experience.

PGF

We'll agree to disagree. I really don't know how you can be so sure about these comments...

Almaviva wrote: »

.....But not a single pro in the world would do this in that situation...

Almaviva wrote: »

a golf pro wouldnt dream of signing any contract to improve your long game..

pinseeker

GreeBo wrote: »

Good teaching pros fix problems with swings, they dont just change them for the sake of it.

Agree that any teaching pro should surely only be thinking along those lines.

If i rocked up for lessons with 4 knuckles showing on my left hand and right hand under shaft yet teaching pro watched me hit ball after ball solid with no real drastic dispersion problems yet he said lets get working on that strong grip of yours and make it more neutral then that is just for the sake of having what is looked upon as correct grip.would be poor coaching in my view.

Nobody can disagree with good coaching being a benefit to a golfer but likewise you can't say that coaching has to have played a part in a player getting to scratch,that just not true.If you say YES to op question then does that mean there is like some sort of limit handicap in your head that is attainable without coaching?Talent surely makes each person diff in that regard

Coaching may get a player there faster but to some players all the coaching in the world may do nothing for a player,that really maybe a player issue tho as peoples traits vary.Player A gets told what is needed to improve and spends hour after hour working on the drills and trying to ingrain what he feels will lead to better golf,Player B gets told same info yet 20 swings in says balls to this it's not working so il try this instead.

Maybe that's why there is conflicting views on what coaching will do for a player,you don't know talking to a player about his coaching experience if he is player A or B.

Seves Three Iron

Coaching all the way. However, I would always advise not to settle on the first coach you meet. See a lot of guys taking the word of some pro as gospel and never really questioning it. I had a couple of bad experiences with lessons from pros but just dumped them until I found the right guy. Eventually settled on a good fella.

MungoMan

If i was starting out again, I'd get coaching straight away, before bad habits develop.
Getting rid of bad habits is so difficult, especially when the bad habits are enabling fairly decent ball striking.

Reminds me of drivng a car, people who develop bad habits prior to getting lessons (like coasting) find it so hard to lose the habits.

So my own advice is several intense lessons to reinforce good fundamentals before even playing the first round.

pokermanpat

Almaviva wrote: »

No one understands the golf swing. The almost complete lack of understanding of what makes a good swing is a really most striking failure in sport.

What a completely outrageous statement. It is pretty basic physics that the clubhead must be square at impact. Pros teach lessons to give the golfer, considering their current set up, the best chance of getting the clubhead square at impact. Having a swing that maintains a good plane drastically improves your chances of getting the face square on a more consistent basis, people can't teach themselves that.

This can be achieved many different ways, no one way is the right way and as golf is not a game of perfect, no golfer can replicate their method flawlessly every time.

Just like footballers miss empty nets, mistime tackles and make bad passes.