Roundabout incident, was I wrong?

The_Nipper_One

On approach to a mini-roundabout today, I saw one jeep waiting to enter at the second exit to my right (roundabout has 3 exits). There were no other cars coming, and I slowed and dropped to 2nd, expecting to stop as the jeep moved out. My intentions were to go around the roundabout and take the 2nd exit, which as at my 3 o'clock (the exit the jeep was sitting at).

I rolled up to the roundabout, which was completely clear apart from myself and the jeep, and as the jeep had not even begun to move, I continued into the roundabout and began turning.

At this point I was fully on, and moving about the roundabout.

The jeep then began to move, and came straight across the road marking for the roundabout, so if you can imagine as i was turning, it's front was facing into my side.

I continued my turning, and exited. There was no contact between us, but it was definitely not a safe situation.

My father said that I should have probably stopped and observed the jeep, and then if it was not moving, moved off then. This is what I will do in future, as my main aim as I learn is to prevent accidents, but was I at fault in moving onto the roundabout when I did?

Some important things to consider:

1.)Between the time I began entering, and had fully entered the roundabout, the jeep was not moving or even partially on the roundabout.

2.)the driver of the jeep drove straight across the makings of the roundabout, if they would have made an effort to circle the roundabout, they would not have been on me as quick, or in the position they were.

Wishbone Ash

The_Nipper_One wrote: »

one jeep waiting to enter at the first exit to my right

If it was a 3 exit roundabout as you appear to have implied, the jeep would have been at the 2nd exit. The first exit is usually on your left.

The_Nipper wrote:

the jeep had not even begun to move, I continued into the roundabout and began turning... ....The jeep then began to move....
.......My father said that I should have probably stopped and observed the jeep, and then if it was not moving, moved off then.... ....Between the time I began entering, and had fully entered the roundabout, the jeep was not moving or even partially on the roundabout.

If the jeep hadn't entered the roundabout, I don't think you did anything wrong. Despite what your father has advised it would appear that you already assessed the situation and acted accordingly.

I wouldn't worry about it. It sounds like careless rather than dangerous driving. He/she may have been unsure of theirdirection and hesitated. The fact that no horns were sounded may indicate that the driver was well aware of your presence and at a mini-roundabout he/she would have been unlikely have built up any speed to have presented any real danger.

Drivers going over the top of roundabouts is another sloppy practice but is commonplace. In a test situation, you can't be faulted for the mistakes of others but you would be expected to react correctly to their mistakes.

The_Nipper_One

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

If it was a 3 exit roundabout as you appear to have implied, the jeep would have been at the 2nd exit. The first exit is usually on your left.

Ahh yes, this is correct, my mistake, I've edited my OP to reflect this. I was describing it from my point of view rather than referring to the terms for the exits on the roundabout IE: the 2nd exit on the roundabout was the first exit I saw when I looked right.

If the jeep hadn't entered the roundabout, I don't think you did anything wrong. Despite what your father has advised it would appear that you already assessed the situation and acted accordingly.

I'm glad to hear that as it has been playing on my mind all day, and although my father advised in future to stop if I see something on my right, in a situation similar to this again, I know that in his heart he probably is just trying to give me the safe advice. I can say with about 90% certainty he probably would have entered the roundabout aswell.

//short aside
For some reason the people where I live don't seem to be very confident when using roundabouts, it's not uncommon to see 3 cars stopped at all the entries to the roundabout my incident occurred at! All sitting there waiting for each other to go. //end aside

I wouldn't worry about it. It sounds like careless rather than dangerous driving. He/she may have been unsure of theirdirection and hesitated. The fact that no horns were sounded may indicate that the driver was well aware of your presence and at a mini-roundabout he/she would have been unlikely have built up any speed to have presented any real danger.

Drivers going over the top of roundabouts is another sloppy practice but is commonplace. In a test situation, you can't be faulted for the mistakes of others but you would be expected to react correctly to their mistakes.

yes, this is something my instructor clued me into from the get-go. It only took approx 3 lessons for someone to pull out onto a main road in front of me.

Thanks for your input

Reloc8

Your plan was correct as you have to give way to traffic already on the roundabout or where you arrive at the same time as other traffic, to traffic coming from the right. It does not seem to me thought that you came to a halt as I think you should have done (him being to your right).

In any event it seems his hesitation made you act by entering the roundabout. Once you had done that, it was probably wrong of him to proceed (he has to yield to traffic already on the roundabout) and doubly wrong if he just drove straight over the roundabout.

If it were me I would be trying hard to make eye-contact with the driver of the other vehicle to make sure he/she has seen me, and I would come to a definite halt so as to recognise his right of way. If we were both stationary for 2 or 3 seconds I would proceed cautiously onto the roundabout, if I was happy that he/she had seen me. If there was a chance that he/she had not noticed me I would sit tight until that had changed. Right of way in these circumstances is a little hard to judge but in essence if you're both coming up to the roundabout at materially the same time you need to yield to the person coming from your right and if in doubt err on the side of yielding.

That's in the real world. I'd be interested to hear from a driving instructor how long to pause here before proceeding/what to do so as to avoid a mark for failure to make progress or any other mark.

challengemaster

The_Nipper_One wrote: »

I rolled up to the roundabout, which was completely clear apart from myself and the jeep, and as the jeep had not even begun to move, I continued into the roundabout and began turning.

At this point I was fully on, and moving about the roundabout.

The jeep then began to move, and came straight across the road marking for the roundabout, so if you can imagine as i was turning, it's front was facing into my side.

I continued my turning, and exited. There was no contact between us, but it was definitely not a safe situation.

My father said that I should have probably stopped and observed the jeep, and then if it was not moving, moved off then. This is what I will do in future, as my main aim as I learn is to prevent accidents, but was I at fault in moving onto the roundabout when I did?

I've hilighted the important part. Once you were on the roundabout, you had right of way and the jeep had to yield to you. In this case it was their bad driving, not yours, (regardless of driving over the road markings) so don't beat yourself up about it.

As for stopping and "observing" the jeep, it somewhat defeats the purpose of roundabouts, which is to keep traffic from all entries moving, or prevent unnecessary stopping.

Roundabouts are 99% of the time, yield rather than stop. A yield sign means you must slow down or stop if necessary and yield the right-of-way to other traffic. In real world, this means you stop if there's cars already on the roundabout, as you cannot drive through them. Otherwise, slow down on approach and observe other vehicles on approach, but only stop if necessary. Stopping and then observing is not really the correct or most efficient way to do things.

Reloc8 wrote: »

It does not seem to me thought that you came to a halt as I think you should have done (him being to your right).

Read above

If it were me I would be trying hard to make eye-contact with the driver of the other vehicle to make sure he/she has seen me, and I would come to a definite halt so as to recognise his right of way. If we were both stationary for 2 or 3 seconds I would proceed cautiously onto the roundabout, if I was happy that he/she had seen me. If there was a chance that he/she had not noticed me I would sit tight until that had changed. Right of way in these circumstances is a little hard to judge but in essence if you're both coming up to the roundabout at materially the same time you need to yield to the person coming from your right and if in doubt err on the side of yielding.

That's in the real world. I'd be interested to hear from a driving instructor how long to pause here before proceeding/what to do so as to avoid a mark for failure to make progress or any other mark.

It's clear from reading that, you have absolutely no idea what a yield sign means. And the fact you think "yield right of way" is hard to judge is disturbing. I'm also pretty shocked to read you would sit at a roundabout and engage a staring contest with the other cars until other drivers saw you.

Please never, ever do this. It's not correct, and you're creating an unnecessary obstruction for other drivers and road users. You would most definitely be marked on failure to make progress if you sat at a roundabout staring at other cars.

I suggest you read up on yielding and roundabouts in the ROTR, or have a driving instructor explain roundabouts to you.

Reloc8

challengemaster wrote: »

I
It's clear from reading that, you have absolutely no idea what a yield sign means. And the fact you think "yield right of way" is hard to judge is disturbing. I'm also pretty shocked to read you would sit at a roundabout and engage a staring contest with the other cars until other drivers saw you.

I'm sorry but I don't see where I said 'yield right of way' is hard to judge (I don't actually know what that means).

I'm not sure if I'm at cross-purposes with your answer but I'm not inclined to accept that what I said is so outlandish.

Thanks for your answer in any event.

I was enquiring about the correct approach where two vehicles arrive or are arriving at a roundabout at materially the same time.

My point was that it can be hard to judge whether one should yield to the car to the right at the other entrance point or not, but that in principle in that scenario (which I believe is correct) you must yield to the vehicle coming from the right on approach.

Of course, if you are clearly going to arrive onto the roundabout before the other vehicle is in position to do so, then you should proceed accordingly and enter the roundabout at which point other vehicles not on the roundabout must yield to you.

That is what can be hard to judge - which I think is a fair point especially for a learner.

Rules of the Road

"When you reach the roundabout

Give way to traffic approaching from your right, unless signs, road markings or traffic lights tell you otherwise.

Where traffic lights control the roundabout, you must obey them.

You must obey any road markings on the lanes and/or other instructions to show what lane to use if you intend to take a particular exit from the roundabout.

Pay attention to vehicles already on the roundabout. In particular, be aware of their signals and try to judge where they plan to exit.

Watch out for other users of the road and be aware of any cyclists or motorcyclists on your left or right.

Look forward before moving on to make sure that traffic in front of you on the roundabout has moved off. This means that you will be able to move on to the roundabout without blocking any traffic coming from your right."

What I in fact said was "in essence if you're both coming up to the roundabout at materially the same time you need to yield to the person coming from your right and if in doubt err on the side of yielding."

Is that so wrong ?

What I then indicated was that if it were me, with a vehicle on my right hand side also at the roundabout but hesitating/stationary, I would be inclined to make very sure that the other person had seen me before I moved onto the roundabout, as ultimately he/she does indeed have right of way, but that I would move on when confident that it was safe to do so. That would be especially so where the other vehicle was not indicating a left turn.

In any event thanks again for your very helpful answer.

Wishbone Ash

Reloc8 wrote: »

What I in fact said was "in essence if you're both coming up to the roundabout at materially the same time you need to yield to the person coming from your right

That is not necessarily true unless it's a mini-roundabout. In a large roundabout, two vehicles can approach and enter the roundabout at the same time as they will be an adequate distance apart. To wait while another vehicles enters the roundabout defeats the purpose of roundabouts - i.e. to keep traffic moving. The ROTR refer to vehicles 'approaching from the right' or vehicles 'already on the roundabout' as opposed to vehicles approaching the roundabout.

The_Nipper_One

Reloc8 wrote: »

I'd be interested to hear from a driving instructor how long to pause here before proceeding/what to do so as to avoid a mark for failure to make progress or any other mark.

My next lesson is on saturday, I'll ask then and post the response here.

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

In a large roundabout, two vehicles can approach and enter the roundabout at the same time as they will be an adequate distance apart. To wait while another vehicles enters the roundabout defeats the purpose of roundabouts - i.e. to keep traffic moving.

I'll keep this in mind the next time I'm coming up to a large roundabout - my instructor has been telling me to do this but I understand his point now thanks to this explaination. Giving way to traffic on a roundabout may not nessicarily mean stopping, only making sure that you do not cause those you are giving way to, to alter their speed or heading.