Closet versus out

Curious Obsever

Hi Folks

I know that this has probably been discussed to exhaustion but I would still like to find out people's views. (I am a long time passive reader of Boards.ie but this is my first post- I have to say that by and large, I find the posts on this site to be be generally thought-provoking and witty - not always at the same time of course - but always worth reading and I do read everything here on a regular basis).

Anyway, I am a gay man of middle years and am comfortable with being gay. I have always been in the closet but as many of from Ireland who are gay will understand, the act of being in the closet is more apparent than real - most people "suspect" and the older you get, the more the suppositions are confirmed by family and colleagues.

Why am I still in the closet? Many factors - the type of work I do, large family with a conservative background (although as stated by now, they know without being told), general personal aversion to hassle, etc.. I practice what I describe as constructive ambiguity - I neither deny nor do I confirm my gayness and this has worked for me up to now. I know that this will be anathema to many gay people but so be it. I never disparage gay people and I always advance the gay cause, to the point that I suspect that my policy of constructive ambiguity is probably pointless at this stage.

The bottom line is that I would like to know how people deal with being in the closet. For me it has been a generally positive experience - apart from the usual snide comments - but I have always managed to deflect these with my policy of constructive ambiguity.

Anyway folks, I have probably bored you to tears and I am sorry, but I would like to hear your views.

Thank you.

Aurongroove

While I have the utmost understanding and sympathy for people in the closet for various reasons, at the end of the day if you're gay and living comfortably in the closet with no intention of ever trying to come out (in a country where being gay isn't punishable by law), then you're hiding from your fair share of effort for social normalizing.

Curious Obsever

Thank you Aurongroove for your reply and I understand the point you are making in normal circumstances but as it happens I am currently living in a Middle Eastern country where homosexual activity is punishable by death by beheading.

However that is not the point. Living in the closet is never particularly comfortable - you just learn to adapt.I have adapted (obviously I am not just speaking of where I am living at the moment but of Ireland) and I was just wondering about the experiences of others in terms of adapting to living in the closet.

Thank you very much for your reply.

Aurongroove

Obviously yes a country where homosexuality is punishable by law is word for word precisely the thing I was excluding with the point I made.

Facing death for being gay is obviously not a fair request to make of anyone.

lottpaul

I think the situation you describe would be very familiar to many gay people of our age group.
Like yourself I stayed partly in the closet for work purposes for many years. I didn't deny anything and I never invented any girlfriends etc. Over the years people stopped asking, put 2 and 2 together and said nothing. Was I happy doing it? In hindsight it did annoy me a bit at times but it was more the incessant yapping of work colleagues about their latest romantic and domestic adventures that got under my skin. I don't think it would have been in my nature to join the conversations, whether I was gay or straight. It would have been nice to be more open at times, but I was out to a couple of good friends and over a period of 35+ years the number of times I regretted not being out would have been in single figures.
In other walks of my life, I told my siblings and others of my generation and left my parents etc to their own thoughts. I could have said something but ,,,,,,,,. They did know, I'm certain of that, but sometimes death intervenes before you get the chance for that "serious" chat.
It's very much a personal thing but my remaining aunts etc -- all well over 80 - always ask about my partner whenever they phone and if I visit without him in tow, they feel short changed.
Neighbours all know - again largely without being told - and when I checked our house insurance a few years back I noticed the secretary in the insurance brokers had listed us as "domestic partners".
In my teens, 20s and 30s we mixed widely on the gay scene but life changes you as you age and as the years passed we both felt it was time to shift our focus to a different phase of living.
We've been lucky -- I've had very little in the way of negative reaction and easily dealt with it when it did arise.

In spite of all of that I'm conflicted.

I would dearly love to have had a visible gay role model when I was a teenager. Am I somehow denying someone else the same thing now?

Having more "out" people in every community would make the whole notion of being gay/lesbian/bi etc less "strange"(more real) to the general population. It's all very well having Coronation Street, Eastenders and so forth but if Jim or Eileen, who work beside you, shop in the same shops, attend the same church/club/society etc are gay then I think it's quite a different thing.

If I convince someone to come out I can't guarantee that their life will improve and they will never have any negative experiences. I can suggest that they will have a fuller and happier life, and hopefully they will.

Lastly, for anyone who is under 30ish all of the above may seem like something from a very ancient and distant time - which is great - because it shows how well things have progressed.
But - its not the same for everyone and there are lots of men and women out there for whom these thoughts and issues are a part of daily living.

(My turn to apologise for going on - it prob deserves more thought but it's getting late and us old folks need our sleep )

ongarboy

Hi OP,

not sure if your question was only pitched at people in the closet but as someone who is out of the closet so to speak since I was 25, I guess all I can say is that my life is significantly better since I came out to those people who are important in my life.

I should add that there is no instant gratification once you come out and it can actually be rather an anti climax. I think it is only in retrospect (after a significant number of years) and with hindsight that you can appreciate not having to carry on the pretense. When in the closet, I became such an expert in pretense, subject evasion etc and was happy, or so I thought, to tolerate such a charade. It is only now, I can see that I was compromising where there was no need for compromise. As humans, I think most of us can endure hardship or carry crosses and still survive but I think if there is a better alternative that is available to us, then I think we deserve to allow ourselves to avail of that opportunity.

Personally, if I remained in the closet, I think as I grew older it would gradually and continuously eat away at me and make me become bitter and resentful of what others (ie straight people) took for granted. I'm glad that for the most part, I don't have to have those feelings now. I think being closeted would also have prevented me from finding my partner of 8 years and it is inconceivable at this point that our families, friends, colleagues etc would not be aware of our other halves if we, or I remained in the closet. That would be too high a price for me to keep my soul mate secret from everyone around me.

Saying that, as a formerly closeted gay person, I respect that each person's circumstances are different and really find it interesting that you find being in the closet a positive experience. It certainly wasn't for me but at the time, I tolerated it. I have since learned that you don't just have to tolerate something if there is a better alternative out there. Then again, and sadly so, maybe some people do not have that better alternative?

Aurongroove

I should also add that as a grown up I have spent more time in the closet then out and that I remember all the secret keeping and worry quite strongly.


Being out for me however did coincide strongly with a new sense of identity I earned during University and following a near death experience I had a year before that as well.
I changed so much as a person in those years that the previous me (in closet, intellectually switched off, shy, reclusive) seems to me now, like I wasn't even alive.

it's almost the difference between watching TV in a small room wearing a blanket or going for walk on a crisp winter evening.

watching the TV is safe, one way communication: you watch the world in your little room getting what you want out of it but other wise not really having a say (you can't change the storyline of fair city by willing it to chance) and your nice and warm with your blanket.

but when you're walking, the fresh air hits you, the weather effects your temperature, people who say hello to you expect a hello back. and when you get home again your cheeks are red and you feel sort alive.

Being in the closet for me is similar to denying yourself your 'real' life by instead wanting secure comfort.
You can live reasonably comfortable, but you can't live freely.

ongarboy

Excellent analogy, Aurongroove!

whattotdo

Excellently put Aurongroove!
Being 'out' is definetly the way to be in my opinion.Anyone who I've spoken to say they wish they came out sooner.All experiences of coming out will be positive,the negative ones are usually down to ingnorance.
I have two brothers who have never been to a gay bar for fear of been spotted.One attended a LGBT night in a different part of the country to his work but he didn't enjoy the night,the local nespaper was there and he advoided the photographer like the plague,similarily any photo opportunity for fear it would end up on facebook.If he was out he could enjoy the night with his mates,life is stressful enough without constantly having to hide,lie etc.
We are gay,not mass murderers on the run!

floggg

As was pointed out above, my generation (late 20s) probably has a very different view or take on this than older generations.

For me it wasn't a choice to come out, I had to do it for the sake of my mental health and well being (I only did it a year and half ago). It wasn't a life I could lead, and I think for some people it can do a lot of damage. A lot of that is the shame and guilt, so if you can get over that then it's a different story I guess.

For me I don't want to miss out on anything or feel I should have to hide it away. I think I'm just as entitled to happiness as my straight friends or siblings and I don't feel like there is any reason why I should.

I guess my generation is lucky (relatively speaking) that we are free to be open about it. I know that wasn't necessarily an option up until fairly recently.

toexpress

Aurongroove wrote: »

While I have the utmost understanding and sympathy for people in the closet for various reasons, at the end of the day if you're gay and living comfortably in the closet with no intention of ever trying to come out (in a country where being gay isn't punishable by law), then you're hiding from your fair share of effort for social normalizing.

I think that's a pretty unfair thing to say. Lots of people choose to keep things private for lots of reasons it is not down to one individual person to help with social normalizing he has to do what he is most comfortable with.

stephen_n

It seems that as with sexuality, there are degrees, the op is not loud and proud but certainly doesn't appear to be hiding in the closet. Not denying who you are and not broadcasting it are different things. I would never deny my sexuality and yet at the same time most people in my life assume I'm straight, so I don't correct them. I'm comfortable with that and don't see why I should change that.

AndChris

I don't consider myself to be in any closet, but apart from my son and possibly my mother, I'm not sure if anyone in my family have realised I'm gay. I'm "chronically single", and noone has ever asked me about it.

Golfusr

Curious Obsever wrote: »

the act of being in the closet is more apparent than real - most people "suspect" and the older you get, the more the suppositions are confirmed by family and colleagues.

As a gay man who came out to family and friends in my early 30's I think you might be surprised that "most people don't suspect"..I certainly was!! I am the stereotypical non-camp guy who happens to be gay..I never had a girl friend or pretended to have but people were still surprised, apparently!

Apart from the initial surprise of people, however, the response I received was, I'm happy to say, positive or largely neutral (in a good way i.e. you're my friend/brother/son etc..whether you are gay or not doesn't effect that)

I am so happy that I did it though and, as others have said, the relief of people knowing and the ability to talk about your friends/partner/night out without making some story up or an awkward silence is so much better.

My only regret is that I didn't do it earlier but I fully understand the mental turmoil of actually getting it done..the number of times the words got caught in my throat were countless...and the fact that not all people's experience is as positive as mine was

toexpress

AndChris wrote: »

I don't consider myself to be in any closet, but apart from my son and possibly my mother, I'm not sure if anyone in my family have realised I'm gay. I'm "chronically single", and noone has ever asked me about it.

I think maybe part of that may be that you have a son, you clearly were married or at least had a straight relationship at some point to have produced a son so there is an assumption that most people would make that you are straight.

I think it should be considered as well that in some cases it is better to not "come out". If you have elderly parents say, do they really need that put on their shoulders. Or if you have children maybe you need to wait for the correct time for them etc. There are a lot of different circumstances that everyone has to consider when coming out it's not as simple as jumping to it

AndChris

toexpress wrote: »

I think maybe part of that may be that you have a son, you clearly were married or at least had a straight relationship at some point to have produced a son so there is an assumption that most people would make that you are straight.

Ah yeah, forgot to mention.. I'm trans, so I hooked up with a bloke and had a kid as a teenager. I suspect that at some point my family thought I was lesbian. Then after I came out as trans and transitoned, well who knows what they're thinking. XD

floggg

toexpress wrote: »

I think it should be considered as well that in some cases it is better to not "come out". If you have elderly parents say, do they really need that put on their shoulders. Or if you have children maybe you need to wait for the correct time for them etc. There are a lot of different circumstances that everyone has to consider when coming out it's not as simple as jumping to it

I disagree. Your free to choose whether to tell them or not, but I don't think anybody should feel that they shouldn't come out to spare another's feelings.

I don't think anybody should have to feel guilty or responsible for being who they are. If people react badly to that, then that's their issue. They can choose to get past it if they wish.

I think it would be quite selfish of any parent that would rather their child stayed closeted and miserable to spare them having to confront their prejudices.

Parents are meant to put their children's happiness and health above their own, not the other way around.

Now of course people can choose not to tell their parents for their own reasons, but they should never feel they have no choice or to deny themselves a chance at happiness

toexpress

floggg wrote: »

I disagree. Your free to choose whether to tell them or not, but I don't think anybody should feel that they shouldn't come out to spare another's feelings.

I don't think anybody should have to feel guilty or responsible for being who they are. If people react badly to that, then that's their issue. They can choose to get past it if they wish.

I think it would be quite selfish of any parent that would rather their child stayed closeted and miserable to spare them having to confront their prejudices.

Parents are meant to put their children's happiness and health above their own, not the other way around.

Now of course people can choose not to tell their parents for their own reasons, but they should never feel they have no choice or to deny themselves a chance at happiness

I think where it would cause undue stress to an elderly person or difficulty for a child then you need to consider that carefully

floggg

toexpress wrote: »

I think where it would cause undue stress to an elderly person or difficulty for a child then you need to consider that carefully

I know my parents would rather die than see my unhappy for a minute. That's the way it should be.

Elderly or not, I think any parent who couldn't get past their issues to accept you isn't deserving of a child who would put their entire lives on hold for them.

It's the ones who would sacrifice everything for their child's happiness who deserve a child like that, though that's the last thing parents like that would ever want them to do.

Obviously that's just my personal opinion on this.

toexpress

And I do take your point flogg, but I would remind you that our parents all sacrificed a lot for us. I was born in 1981 so my parents would have put a lot of their own needs and desires on hold to make sure that myself and my sisters had the best they could give us and it was tough on them because at the end of the day they had a business to nurse through the 80's. Many of us even at my age (early 30's) would have parents who sacrificed a hell of lot already and when you become an adult it's time to give back to your parents and consider what is best for them.

All of that said I should say I'm out to my parents and they have met previous boyfriends etc. But I did that more than ten years ago when they were both 50 and it was on the basis that I come from a close family and to not tell them would have been a fundamental dishonesty which would have hurt had they found out in a different way.

Whilst I encourage anyone to consider their position and the effects that coming out will have on the closer family I would also say that from my point of view if I were to die tomorrow and I died with my family not knowing this part of me it would be a crying shame. Sexuality is really a very small part of who we are, for me personally I feel I am defined by my job, my history, my friendships and relationships, my interests in things that are not gay related, but it can become a very big thing if we are hiding the secret and it becomes very very big.

floggg

I guess it comes down to how you look at it.

I don't think any gay person should be forced to think about how it would effect others or feel responsible for that. In the same way, I don't think they should feel guilt or shame either.

There is nothing wrong with being gay, bi or straight and I don't think people should ever have to make apologies for it or live their lives on others terms.

toexpress

floggg wrote: »

I don't think any gay person should be forced to think about how it would effect others or feel responsible for that. In the same way, I don't think they should feel guilt or shame either.

But that is a selfish attitude to take. In life we all have crosses to carry and the consideration of anothers feelings above our own might well be that cross for someone.

Aurongroove

but then toexpress I would see your stand point as being selfish and not floggg's. So it does indeed seem to be a case of how you look at it.

what about people who are out and fighting their battles every day and having "******" being shouted at them from passing cars?
meanwhile inside the car one of the "pals" friends may well be in the closet observing everything and dosnt want to ruin his life by coming out, or spoil the fun of his friends, upset his parents, or **** up the psychology of younger siblings (apparently). He's hiding from who he is because he sees his homosexuality as "a bad thing he'd be doing" and that keeping it a secret will upset the least amount of people.

Being out rustles feathers yes, but it's not a gay person's fault that being gay upsets people, and the only way to 'cure' this problem is to normalise homosexuality in society. You're saying you shouldn't come out if it would upset family or whatever, but it shouldn't upset family, because being gay is not something one does to one's family. you seem to be saying "it;s sometimes better to stay in the closet because people don't take kindly to gays"

but that's putting the cart in front of the horse. (all IMO)

stephen_n

No he's not saying that all, what your saying is, if your gay, you don't have the right to choose how you live your life, your way, you have to live it the gay way. What is selfish is not considering other people's feelings as being important, what's selfish is making it all about you and doing it because you can. No one should suffer because of their sexuality but everyone should have the choice in how they express it! If people prefer to remain in the closet because of the effect coming out will have on those they love, why shouldn't they, because it will make your life easier by normalizing homosexuality, that is truely selfish!

ongarboy

stephen_n wrote: »

No he's not saying that all, what your saying is, if your gay, you don't have the right to choose how you live your life, your way, you have to live it the gay way. What is selfish is not considering other people's feelings as being important, what's selfish is making it all about you and doing it because you can. No one should suffer because of their sexuality but everyone should have the choice in how they express it! If people prefer to remain in the closet because of the effect coming out will have on those they love, why shouldn't they, because it will make your life easier by normalizing homosexuality, that is truely selfish!

I think many loved ones have reacted with initial surprise, soul searching, head scratching, disappointment, hurt, sadness when first told. It took them days, months, even years to get used to it but I think in most cases, the final outcome was ultimately positive. It perhaps even drew them closer to the person that came out to them because they shared something so personal and important with them. Should the person coming out spare their loved ones those short term unpleasant feelings which ultimately would be overcome? Humans can overcome most unpleasant situations (especially if those situations are not inherently wrong in the first place).

My parents both had unpleasant reactions when I came out which I did not enjoy making them endure (my mother's being sadness for the loneliness and secrecy I had to endure prior to coming out and my father's being angry, sad and mad that I was not the alpha male son he thought I was). It pained me that I caused them that unpleasantness but it was not selfish of me. Over time, they got used to it and our relationships became far more strengthened and healthy as there was complete truth and no more secrets and lies.

I acknowledge that there are some "loved ones" who will never accept their son, daughter, sibling or other loved one being gay and continue to remain hurt and angered by it but to me, that is them being selfish for not being compassionate or learning to respect that their "loved one" has no choice in being gay. If someone chooses to remain in the closet because they fear hurting their loved ones, that is their choice and entitlement to do so but being brave enough to come out even though it may cause some hurt and pain is not being selfish.

Aurongroove

stephen_n wrote: »

No he's not saying that all, what your saying is, if your gay, you don't have the right to choose how you live your life, your way, you have to live it the gay way. What is selfish is not considering other people's feelings as being important, what's selfish is making it all about you and doing it because you can. No one should suffer because of their sexuality but everyone should have the choice in how they express it! If people prefer to remain in the closet because of the effect coming out will have on those they love, why shouldn't they, because it will make your life easier by normalizing homosexuality, that is truely selfish!

whatever man, you kinda missed the point and made me sound like a dick.

my point was yes it does seem to be a case of how you look at it (and i then provided a different way of looking at it from what toexpress posted). I wasn't claiming other peoples feelings weren't important.

the point being each 'point of view' is claiming the other is selfish for different reasons.

Goodshape

Maybe it's a generational thing (I'm in that late 20s category someone mentioned above) but I struggle a bit to understand the idea of personally accepting your sexuality while still 'living in the closet'.

And then I wonder what people mean our expect when they talk about being "out". The only person I feel I ever had to come out to was myself. I didn't hold a party or send out a newsletter. I don't carry a megaphone or wear a badge. People find out if and when sex and sexuality becomes relevant to them or whatever discussion we're having (and I guess it's not rare that it does).

Sure telling those first few people was nerve racking (parents, friends etc), but the thought of not doing that, and living in the closet by choice, didn't even really occur to me as an option. The coming out was done.. I accept it. The rest is just not lying to people.

If you're gay and in the closet, how does that work? Is it a lot 'holidays for one' and 'NSA fun' with headless profile pictures? Hmm.. sorry if that sounds a bit offensive. Genuinely interested to know what goes into a desire to stay undetected.


Anyway, accepting that I'm gay hasn't changed who I am. Nor did telling anyone about it. For me that was important. I had the totally irrational fear that "gay" came with some predetermined personality traits. It doesn't. Being in the closet in my late teens and early twenties was awful and I wouldn't wish it on anyone... but for me that was an entirely personal conflict. Coming out was to myself, and I couldn't recommend it strongly enough if you're battling with that.

But coming out to yourself and then continuing to live in the closet? I can't really imagine it.

stephen_n

The OP isn't really describing hiding in the closet though, well apart from his current living situation which demands caution. He described being comfortable in himself without needing to broadcast his sexuality. Given that he said he doesn't deny or attempt to hide by deception, who he is, I don't see why people feel he should be out.

toexpress

Aurongroove wrote: »

but then toexpress I would see your stand point as being selfish and not floggg's. So it does indeed seem to be a case of how you look at it.

what about people who are out and fighting their battles every day and having "******" being shouted at them from passing cars?
meanwhile inside the car one of the "pals" friends may well be in the closet observing everything and dosnt want to ruin his life by coming out, or spoil the fun of his friends, upset his parents, or **** up the psychology of younger siblings (apparently). He's hiding from who he is because he sees his homosexuality as "a bad thing he'd be doing" and that keeping it a secret will upset the least amount of people.

Being out rustles feathers yes, but it's not a gay person's fault that being gay upsets people, and the only way to 'cure' this problem is to normalise homosexuality in society. You're saying you shouldn't come out if it would upset family or whatever, but it shouldn't upset family, because being gay is not something one does to one's family. you seem to be saying "it;s sometimes better to stay in the closet because people don't take kindly to gays"

but that's putting the cart in front of the horse. (all IMO)

I can see what you are saying very clearly and in part I agree. But at the end of the day if I have to choose between one of my own and the greater good I am going to choose one of my own and I think most people will. It's easy to take an altruistic stand point until you have to carry out the deed!!

floggg

toexpress wrote: »

But that is a selfish attitude to take. In life we all have crosses to carry and the consideration of anothers feelings above our own might well be that cross for someone.

I had a long and well reasoned response typed out yesterday that disappeared.

I fundamentally disagree though that wanting to be open and honest with your family should ever be considered selfish.

To say it is, to me, implies that there is something wrong with being gay, or it's something that you impose on others, and that you should feel bad about making them put up with.

Your family are meant to be the people you can be open and honest with, who you can turn to when you are in need of support and who will love you unconditionally.

Quite frankly any parents who don't provide that sort of attitude or who would put their prejudices above their child's needs are failing their child.

Aurongroove

toexpress wrote: »

I can see what you are saying very clearly and in part I agree. But at the end of the day if I have to choose between one of my own and the greater good I am going to choose one of my own and I think most people will. It's easy to take an altruistic stand point until you have to carry out the deed!!

this is precisely where we disagree, as a person I would find myself naturally assuming precisely the opposite of this and think myself a more enlightened person for doing so.

toexpress

Aurongroove wrote: »

this is precisely where we disagree, as a person I would find myself naturally assuming precisely the opposite of this and think myself a more enlightened person for doing so.

well what you call enlightened I call delusional

Annasopra

toexpress wrote: »

well what you call enlightened I call delusional

I don't think it's delusional at all.

stephen_n

Aurongroove wrote: »

this is precisely where we disagree, as a person I would find myself naturally assuming precisely the opposite of this and think myself a more enlightened person for doing so.

You would consider yourself more enlightened, why exactly?

toexpress

mango salsa wrote: »

I don't think it's delusional at all.

And you are entitled to that opinion, it's simply different to mine. What this boils down to is that certain people maintain that they act for the greater good which is admirable, but I choose to be honest and say that I will act in the best interests of those closest to me and hang anyone else

jaydoxx

The fúck is going on here? I cannot fathom how being honest about your attraction to one gender or another(or even both!) can ever be considered selfish. What exactly is wrong with sexuality?

How do you live? Don't you tell your family & friends you like certain types of music? Or do you spare their feelings by not admiting to like hiphop? Which obviously is a genre detrimental to society(!)

Caiseoipe19

Okay I don't know who I agree with. I see both sides and I don't think selfishness comes into it. Why does one action have to be selfish and the other not?
As some people have said, everyone has the right to be open and true about who they really are. So coming out is not selfish.

On the other hand, I also see understand that some people may choose not to come out because of the effect it would have on loved ones. I completely disagree with the view that this is selfish. It's not. It's a decision made with other people's interest's at heart.
While it's not selfish to come out in any circumstance, it's not selfish and understandable why some people choose to stay in the closet because of the effect it will have on others, in my opinion.

floggg

jaydoxx wrote: »

Or do you spare their feelings by not admiting to like hiphop? Which obviously is a genre detrimental to society(!)

Now your just talking nonsense!

I ouughta buss a cap in your (presumably) white ass just for thinking that!

Petey89

Im in my early 20's and I came out over 2 years ago, unfortunatly my experience in the closet was not a good, I was totaly depressed and was always worried about people finding out and what would happen if I did come out. so much so that I couldnt enjoy my life.
Coming out was the best thing i ever did so much happier now living with my partner of 2 years having a great life, I get the odd comment about being gay but generaly i have no hassle and i come from a large family from the country side and nearly all of them were very accepting and well I dont really care about the people who were too ignorant to accept it.
My advice to anyone in the closet is to come out and enjoy your life.