Insurance problem

hiromatsu22

Does anyone currently running an MMA gym have any information on insurance options out there at the moment? My clubs insurance is up for renewal but my current broker has informed me that "cage fighting" is no longer covered as the underwriter (RSA) has been advised by the Irish Martial Arts Commission that "cage fighting" is not a real martial art.

I'm not one to normally worry about other people's opinions of what I do, especially those that might be ignorant and/or biased, but when those people are actually influencing an insurance companies corporate policies then there really is a problem out there that is not being adequately addressed. Their terminology alone tells us that they have not researched (let alone tried) MMA in any shape or form yet they feel sufficiently qualified to give their opinion on it under the guise of expertise that they do not have.

Are people really still threatened by the prospect of progressive training methods? It’s a rhetorical question, obviously there are, but when they can actually impact our ability to run our clubs then it is far more of a problem than a difference of opinion.

Anyway, any information would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

RoboRat

Sounds so typically Irish... the Irish Martial Arts commission won't endorse Mixed Martial Arts as its not a 'real' Martial Art... Numpties. I would love if they could actually define what a 'real' martial art is... what is the criteria?

Another point is that it's not cage fighting, its MMA... thats what its called. The Cage is the medium of competition for some practitioners. Most clubs don't even have a cage and a lot of people who train in MMA don't do so to compete in the cage.

If the IMAC wont recognise MMA thats fine, but they need to keep from making misinformed statements which can impact on clubs. They also need to set out a specific set of criteria as to what defines a Martial Art.

theboxingclinic

Wow that's just incredible. Absoloutley incredible. I wonder is there legal recourse for that statement

Jason McCabe

We use ABC not sure who underwrites but RSA sounds familiar

Why does the IMAC care so much about what we do. Must be feeling threatened

Shocking

ryoishin

Is it for day to day training or for an event.

If its for day to day training then your doing boxing, wrestling and bjj.

If its for an event then you ll have to have your broker look around. RSA seem to be moving away from the sports market lately.

lawrencesummers

Am i going to get chastised for saying that MMA isnt areal martial art? There is nothing artistic about it, Boxing isnt either a Martial art and nobody has a problem with it, and well "Cage fighting" is closer to boxing that kung fu. Its a sport, not an art.

ryoishin

The art form is in the effectiveness of the technique.

manga_10

it is artistic in the fluidity and the general combination of the movement. That's like saying that contemporary or hip hop isn't artistic because it doesn't conform to a certain set of principles within a dance framework

Dermighty

hiromatsu22 wrote: »

Anyway, any information would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

How about you get it insured as a (EXAMPLE!!!) thai boxing+bjj gym (or whatever it is you do there).

I doubt it would constitute fraud as you are technically running multiple disciplines if you're running an mma class.

Just a thought.

Mellor

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Am i going to get chastised for saying that MMA isnt areal martial art? There is nothing artistic about it, Boxing isnt either a Martial art and nobody has a problem with it, and well "Cage fighting" is closer to boxing that kung fu. Its a sport, not an art.

A martial art doesn't have to be "artistic". That's not origin of the meaning.

Also, boxing is a martial art too.

Jason McCabe

Dermighty wrote: »

How about you get it insured as a (EXAMPLE!!!) thai boxing+bjj gym (or whatever it is you do there.

Just a thought.

What if you do MMA?

Dermighty

Jason McCabe wrote: »

What if you do MMA?

*sigh*

Quoting myself!: "I doubt it would constitute fraud as you are technically running multiple disciplines if you're running an mma class."

Jason McCabe

Mma is not Thai mixed with BJJ

It is it's own beast. I would not take the risk of lying to an insurance company

Especially if some lad gets his neck broke in class and the insurance company won't pay up

Dermighty

Jason McCabe wrote: »

Mma is not Thai mixed with BJJ

It is it's own beast. I would not take the risk of lying to an insurance company

Especially if some lad gets his neck broke in class and the insurance company won't pay up

Well I did say "How about you get it insured as a (EXAMPLE!!!) thai boxing+bjj gym (or whatever it is you do there).", I did not say that mma = thai boxing and bjj.

Whatever, some form of constructive comment does more for this thread than just shooting down a post by (incorrectly) paraphrasing the author.

Best of luck with it OP.

lawrencesummers

Mellor wrote: »

A martial art doesn't have to be "artistic". That's not origin of the meaning.

Also, boxing is a martial art too.

You better tell Enda, the Government, and Rte that they got it wrong so, she should have been awarded Artist of the year

http://insideireland.ie/2012/09/17/taoiseach-presents-sports-person-of-the-year-award-to-katie-taylor-79465/

Clive

lawrencesummers wrote: »

You better tell Enda, the Government, and Rte that they got it wrong so, she should have been awarded Artist of the year

http://insideireland.ie/2012/09/17/taoiseach-presents-sports-person-of-the-year-award-to-katie-taylor-79465/

You do know that art has more than one meaning?

Richy06

Clive wrote: »

You do know that art has more than one meaning?

.....go on.

Plastikman_eire

Richy06 wrote: »

.....go on.

Mellor

lawrencesummers wrote: »

You better tell Enda, the Government, and Rte that they got it wrong so, she should have been awarded Artist of the year

http://insideireland.ie/2012/09/17/taoiseach-presents-sports-person-of-the-year-award-to-katie-taylor-79465/

I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say.

What has Katie receiving an award got to do anything? It's a martial art as well as a sport. Just like many other martial arts are also sports. TKD, BJJ, Muay Thai, Sambo, etc. Seriously, that has to be the dumbest argument I've ever heard.

Artist of the year. lol. That's idiotic

RoboRat

Just to clarify, an 'Art' has more than one meaning, one such definition is: a skill at doing a specified thing, typically one acquired through practice ie Martial Arts or the 'Art of conversation' etc etc

Matt_Trakker

Couldn't you just get people to sign a waiver?
Like y'know when you go to a car park and it says "we take no responsibility...blah blah"

So like "By taking part in this sport I recognize the risks involved and will not sue the gym for any injuries I sustain by taking part in it."

Would that be allowed?

RoboRat

Couldn't you just get people to sign a waiver?
Like y'know when you go to a car park and it says "we take no responsibility...blah blah"

So like "By taking part in this sport I recognize the risks involved and will not sue the gym for any injuries I sustain by taking part in it."

Would that be allowed?

Waivers don't eliminate risk as the club would still be liable for contributory liability at least. By saying you accept no responsibility doesn't mean that you have no responsibility.

If you are offering a service, whether its martial art training or a parking spot and are charging for such service, then you must ensure that you are adequately covered if something goes wrong. If in cases where there is no charge such as a public carpark, then its a lot easier to deny liability but its in the hands of the courts as to whether they find you liable... its all dependent on the actual case and who was at fault etc.

Matt_Trakker

Ah I see now, I wasn't aware of that.

lawrencesummers

Mellor wrote: »

I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say.

What has Katie receiving an award got to do anything? It's a martial art as well as a sport. Just like many other martial arts are also sports. TKD, BJJ, Muay Thai, Sambo, etc. Seriously, that has to be the dumbest argument I've ever heard.

Artist of the year. lol. That's idiotic

Its a complex one to get your head around alright. Im saying that Boxing, like MMA is not an art, first and foremost its a sport. People also refer to boxing as a science, and well its not that either. If something is an Art then the people who participate are Artists, if its a Science well they are scientists, and Boxing and MMA are sports with competitions, winners and losers also known as sportsmen.

So if an insurance Company doesnt want to insure a gym because they do not consider what they do to be an Art I can see where they are coming from if what they are training is sport.

El Guapo!

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Its a complex one to get your head around alright. Im saying that Boxing, like MMA is not an art, first and foremost its a sport. People also refer to boxing as a science, and well its not that either. If something is an Art then the people who participate are Artists, if its a Science well they are scientists, and Boxing and MMA are sports with competitions, winners and losers also known as sportsmen.

So if an insurance Company doesnt want to insure a gym because they do not consider what they do to be an Art I can see where they are coming from if what they are training is sport.

I think your post makes no sense whatsoever.

Why is boxing not an art? What makes it not an art?
If you look up boxing on Wikipedia, its listed as a martial art. The definition of a martial art is:

"The martial arts are codified systems and traditions of combat practices. They are practiced for a variety of reasons, including self-defense, competition, physical health and fitness, as well as mental, physical, and spiritual development."

Boxing and mma fall directly under this definition.
An art is something that takes many years of practice and dedication to master. Boxing and mma both take many years to master. They're extremely skilful and a lot of experience and knowledge is needed to be a master of these martial arts.
Both of these arts are so complex, that it is probably impossible to achieve perfection and mastery in either of them. The same can be said for all the other more traditional japanese martial arts.

Not only are boxing and mma more intensive in training and in sparring, but both are more practical in a real-life setting than many other martial arts.

Your point about boxing being called the sweet science makes little sense too. Nobody literally considers boxers scientists. It's merely a saying to try and convey how difficult and complex the art actually is. And that it is in fact so complex that if may aswell be a science.

And if you say mma is not a martial art then you immediately discount all the other traditional arts. Mma is a mixture of all the recognised arts.
It's Mixed Martial Arts. The clue is in the name.

Clive

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Its a complex one to get your head around alright. Im saying that Boxing, like MMA is not an art, first and foremost its a sport. People also refer to boxing as a science, and well its not that either. If something is an Art then the people who participate are Artists, if its a Science well they are scientists, and Boxing and MMA are sports with competitions, winners and losers also known as sportsmen.

An interesting point of view. Could I ask how you would classify kickboxing then? There's nothing more aesthetically pleasing about it than boxing, it is a sport and yet it is generally considered a martial art also.

Mellor

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Its a complex one to get your head around alright. Im saying that Boxing, like MMA is not an art, first and foremost its a sport. People also refer to boxing as a science, and well its not that either. If something is an Art then the people who participate are Artists, if its a Science well they are scientists, and Boxing and MMA are sports with competitions, winners and losers also known as sportsmen.

So if an insurance Company doesnt want to insure a gym because they do not consider what they do to be an Art I can see where they are coming from if what they are training is sport.

It's really not that complicated at all. Most of what you said is nonsense. Its’ a sport and a martial art. It really is that simple. Lots of martial arts are competitive sports. By your logic judo, karate and most others combat sports aren’t martial arts, which is obviously ridiculous.
The problem is you seem to misunderstand the word art, specifically martial arts. “Art” commonly short for the visual arts like painting, sculpture and all these things. But it isn’t it’s only context. At a basic level it means a skill, particular one achieved something through practice. (eg the “Art of conversation”).

Martial Arts, comes from the “Arts of Mars” (the roman god of war). So the original meaning was the art of combat or fighting. If anything, MMA is the sport that most accurately represents that.

hiromatsu22

I don't think the unwillingness to insure is based on the semantics of what constitutes art vs sport and more to do with non MMA people dragging its name through the mud to suit their own agenda. Playing devils advocate is fine in an open discussion but misrepresenting knowledge (or lack of) to influence an insurance company's policy is far more insidious. I probably seem a bit paranoid by saying that but I can't seem to see any legitimate reason for it.

Just to update everyone, I went with the argument that MMA training is made up of kickboxing, wrestling and BJJ and that the cage serves a safety function and that satisfied the broker enough to provide cover for training and competing in the above sports/arts/sciences but NOT for competing in MMA fights. Fighters are essentially competing MMA at their own risk, or under their own personal insurance if they can get that.

reganreggie

I always taught that mma fights were at your own risk, I know my clubs insurance would does not cover me when fighting.

Mellor

reganreggie wrote: »

I always taught that mma fights were at your own risk, I know my clubs insurance would does not cover me when fighting.

The way I understand it. Its there to insure them. For training/fighting etc on their premises. It doesn't extend to you outside their gym, on fight cards promoted by others, outside training etc.

Jason McCabe

Hiro

Was it ABC?

hiromatsu22

AISC but they said it was RSA calling the shots

cowzerp

reganreggie wrote: »

I always taught that mma fights were at your own risk, I know my clubs insurance would does not cover me when fighting.

Spot on, Insurance on events would cover stuff like slipping due to negligence etc, same as at any event, Even in the UFC fighters are only insured privately and not by the UFC.

cowzerp

hiromatsu22 wrote: »

My clubs insurance is up for renewal but my current broker has informed me that "cage fighting" is no longer covered as the underwriter (RSA) has been advised by the Irish Martial Arts Commission that "cage fighting" is not a real martial art.

I've been to ton's of MMA events and have yet to see Cages fighting-every time I go I keep expecting to see 2 cage like transformers going at it, Have to say i always go home disappointed, So the IMAC are probably right, "cage fighting" is not a real martial art!

Now I'm off to watch 2 Boxes going at it in a new sport called Boxing!

RoboRat

Now I'm off to watch 2 Boxes going at it in a new sport called Boxing!

I am going home to paint a landscape with the wife...

(I realise its martial and not marital)

hiromatsu22

Yeah, I always assumed that fighting at MMA shows was outside the remit of the insurance policy, although the actual text of the cert is:

"Activities Cover:

Only whilst participating in the declared
sporting activities associated with membership
of the Insured Club, anywhere in the world."

That's not what the problem was though (I was just clarifying the details of the compromise we reached). The important thing is that they were unwilling to insure training in MMA when they realized it was the same thing as "cage fighting". They have insured us to train and compete in kickboxing, wrestling and BJJ - individually and together, but not MMA (as flawed as that logic sounds).

I guess it's a moot point now that we have renewed but I wanted to post something for all the other MMA coaches out there so that they know about this potential problem when their renewal is due next

Cheers

ryoishin

What are the exclusions?