Best secondary captain in TNG and others for lower ranked officers

nyarlothothep

To be more precise in any trek show can this question be asked. Effectively I limit myself to TNG and TOS because I know little about DS9 but I leave that open for others. Imo Data would make an excellent captain. He is miles ahead of anyone in terms of strategy and intelligence, he ran circles around the Romulans in that episode and was way ahead of even Picard in that tactical manouvre, he also outsmarted the whole bridge crew when he visited Noonien Soong. Basically Data would make a badass military captain, he would be 10 steps ahead of everyone else. Worf was good at acting authoritatively, ditto for Riker who had more diplomacy but I have to admire Data's ruthless efficiency and genius.

Kirby

If all it takes is military precision and intelligence, than why man the ships at all? Why not just let the computer do it's thing? Intuition and inter-personal skills are important and Data had none. He would also rub people up the wrong way very easily, as was evidenced in that episode.

Frankly, I think pre-emotion chip Data would make a poor captain.

Of all the characters, I think Kira made a great leader. Especially in the later seasons when she mellowed a little. I also think that T'pol post tellium D would have made a good captain. Logic fuelled yes, but also had emotional understanding.

Kurn

But, Data seemed to more and more recognise when he rubbed people the wrong way as time went on, he was also able to stand up for himself in that epsiode with some officer not taking him seriously. A spot as first officer for a while, and he'd be well able - if he was still alive (B4 was such a pile of bull cra#)

Kira, I agree towards the end, at the start she was a bit crazy and seemed to love to hate, but I really liked her character, plus she's great at reporting on the weather

nyarlothothep

The problem with Data rubbing people the wrong way was 90% to do with their prejudice against him as an android and for being a bit different. Sure he wouldn't exactly be as socially flatulent as Riker but that could also be a good thing. Data did exhibit intuition though, to the point that Picard said 'nicely played.' A computer wouldn't be able to replicate that.

Kiith

If Riker stopped banging anything with legs, he'd probably be my choice (though then he wouldn't really be Riker :P). He showed a few times that he had what it took and was a likable officer. Data would be good, especially later in the series.

IvySlayer

Worf was pretty decent in DS9 in command of the Defiant.

Pride Fighter

Lt. Sulu from TOS.

A softly spoken lieutenant who occasionally prances around while fencing.

Goes to a complete bad ass as Captain of the Excelsior.

Love the scene with the structural integrity of the Excelsior is at maximum and the ship is shaking its going so fast. Sulu says increase speed. His helmsman says we're exceeding maximum warp any faster and the ship will fly apart. Sulu says FLY HER APART.

Love that scene, portrays Sulu brilliantly. You go away thinking so what if Kirk is retiring and the Enterprise-A is being decommissioned. The federation is safe as long as Sulu is Captain.

Indricotherium

Chakotay and his spirit animals.

He's great in any of the myriad of situations that involve going asleep for a while.

He'd be a great captain.

Myrddin

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Love that scene, portrays Sulu brilliantly. You go away thinking so what if Kirk is retiring and the Enterprise-A is being decommissioned. The federation is safe as long as Sulu is Captain.

He had a badass, old school legend of a teacher

downwithpeace

Miles O'Brien, good character with lots of experience in different roles and he's both liked and respected by those above and below him in rank.

Only issue I can think of is he wouldn't want it.

Myrddin

Indricotherium wrote: »

Chakotay and his spirit animals.

He's great in any of the myriad of situations that involve going asleep for a while.

He'd be a great captain.

In fairness he's a skilled diplomat, a strong leader, & has a good sense of ethics. His only downfall would be he can be overly passionate at times.

Data would make an excellent Captain, & its not a case of why not do away with man & let computers do it all, Data has been proven to be alive, a sentient being, & does indeed have a gut instinct as he well demonstrated against the Romulan fleet that time {Redemption}.

Riker too would be a strong candidate, as would Cnl Keira.

Indricotherium

The M-5 Multitronic system

helimachoptor

Have to say as commander of the defiant Worf was never as gung ho as I wanted him to be

Myrddin

helimachoptor wrote: »

Have to say as commander of the defiant Worf was never as gung ho as I wanted him to be

Probably why he'd make a fine Captain. He was ale to put his warrior instincts aside & focus on his duty...no easy feat for a klingon

downwithpeace

helimachoptor wrote: »

Have to say as commander of the defiant Worf was never as gung ho as I wanted him to be

EnterNow wrote: »

Probably why he'd make a fine Captain. He was ale to put his warrior instincts aside & focus on his duty...no easy feat for a klingon

Part of the reason I picked O'Brien was due to what he said to Worf in DS9, Worf wanted the engineers to hurry up and fix the Defiant and was fairly gung ho Worf about it so O'Brien pulled him a side and passed on some tips for getting the most out of your crew while still showing your in command.

They would have made an interesting Captain and second officer.

Myrddin

Aye at that stage, Worf was still fairly new to Command & O'Brien with his experience was able to pass on some knowledge to Worf. Nice little moment in the episode 'Starship Down' that was

Indricotherium

EnterNow wrote: »

Probably why he'd make a fine Captain. He was ale to put his warrior instincts aside & focus on his duty...no easy feat for a klingon

Are you joking??

He went off to save his bird instead of completing a mission.

Defo not meant for command.

Myrddin

Indricotherium wrote: »

Are you joking??

He went off to save his bird instead of completing a mission.

Defo not meant for command.

Are we listing mistakes that characters made now? Because by that logic, I could rule out every captain we've seen.

nyarlothothep

In fairness Worf had a lot of mental episodes, for example when he went into a religious fervour about Kahless. However it's interesting that if you recall the histories of all these characters across the shows, they're involved in derelictions of duty all the time. Data for example was incredibly unpredictable, as an android he could be fundamentally influenced/altered and when he went into evil mode, combined with a lack of emotions, he was the most dangerous person onboard the enterprise. It would be cool to compare characters across the series to see which one would be the most stable/reliable. My vote would probably go to Troi, useless as she was she didn't have too many psychotic episodes which endangered the entire crew. Or O' Brien. The crew of TOS were meant to have been insane.

Indricotherium

EnterNow wrote: »

Are we listing mistakes that characters made now? Because by that logic, I could rule out every captain we've seen.

That episode closes with Sisko telling him that he will probably never get a command becasue of the incident.

helimachoptor

Indricotherium wrote: »

Are you joking??

He went off to save his bird instead of completing a mission.

Defo not meant for command.

Always bugged me that he was marked as "not captain material" after that.

Worf's sense of loyalty was second to none to the people he was friends with.

If that was the Chief, Bashir, Odo etc etc (anyone except from Munez!)
He would have aborted the mission, fought through a battalion of Jem Ha'dar to get them home.

Sometimes they mission is secondary to the people on the mission.

knucklehead6

helimachoptor wrote: »

Sometimes they mission is secondary to the people on the mission.

Not according to Riker

Mission
Ship
Crew

helimachoptor

knucklehead6 wrote: »

Not according to Riker

Mission
Ship
Crew

Nah.. sure what if your mission is to deliver a batch of self sealing stem bolts?

And your faced with de pressurising the cargo bay to put out a fire to save a crew member..

Personally I think the only way i would do something like the doc did in VOY like close a hatch on someone would be if i didnt then a lot more people would die.

Slightly OT, but when i was younger I seen a guy die pretty much in front of me after being hit by a car, he survived for a few mins. Watching that happen to a stranger is tough, however watching it happen to a friend/wife or whatever would be next to impossible no matter what the mission is.


Now in saying that.. if the option was to save Dax and potentially put 20 people in immediate danger.. then i'd chose the 20 people.

Sorry i'm rambling :pac::pac:

Myrddin

Indricotherium wrote: »

That episode closes with Sisko telling him that he will probably never get a command becasue of the incident.

Yeah I'm aware of that. Do you want examples of actions every other Captain took which would rule them out for command too?

Worf captained the Defiant many times, he has huge experience, made mistakes, learned from them, & has the respect from everyone who served under him.

Picard
Riker
Sisko
Keira
Janeway
Chakotay
O'Brien...in fact every single character on this thread has made mistakes, or put themselves ahead of the mission at one time or another. Quoting one mistake made by Worf & saying he's unfit for command is ludicrous. In fact, some might say the blame lies with Sisko in that example, a couple in fact should have never been sent on a solo mission like that

helimachoptor

Enter.. you need to take into account a lot of those are captains already, not in starfleet or enlisted :pac:

Worf was singled out by Sisko as Starfleet had said in their comment on his report it was very unlikely Worf would be getting a command of his own.

This is what irks a lot of people!

Kiith

nyarlothothep wrote: »

My vote would probably go to Troi, useless as she was she didn't have too many psychotic episodes which endangered the entire crew.

I dunno, when she lost her telepathic abilities she turned into a bit of a moody bitch.

So normal for a female captain then! :pac: (i kid, i kid!)

Myrddin

helimachoptor wrote: »

Enter.. you need to take into account a lot of those are captains already, not in starfleet or enlisted :pac

Being a Captain already though doesn't mean you can throw duty out the window, as is being used in the argument here against Worf. And despite some of them not being enlisted, it doesn't mean they're not in Command situations. Rank is superfluous here, if someone is being ruled out for Command based on a past mistake, it should rule them all out because they've all had personal moments/disobeyed orders/put themselves ahead of a mission or shown disregard at one point or another

Kirby

knucklehead6 wrote: »

Not according to Riker

Mission
Ship
Crew

I always thought this was an odd sentiment. The ship is an inanimate object. It is not worth the life of a single person.

Now, he might argue that by "ship" he means the crew aboard it....but surely that just underlines the point that the crew is the important component here?

My list would be

Crew
Mission
Ship.

A ship can be rebuilt. A person cannot. To get serious for a second ,a true leader puts the lives of those under his command ahead of an order from somebody sitting in a chair far, far away. He may not end up the decorated leader, or the promoted leader.....but he is the better leader.

Merch

Kirby wrote: »

I always thought this was an odd sentiment. The ship is an inanimate object. It is not worth the life of a single person.

Now, he might argue that by "ship" he means the crew aboard it....but surely that just underlines the point that the crew is the important component here?

My list would be

Crew
Mission
Ship.

A ship can be rebuilt. A person cannot. To get serious for a second ,a true leader puts the lives of those under his command ahead of an order from somebody sitting in a chair far, far away. He may not end up the decorated leader, or the promoted leader.....but he is the better leader.

even that order cant be right
mission cant be ahead of ship, it means the ship could be jepordised by the mission, then the crew would be jepordised.

Not easy to replace crew or ship, mission cant be done without either

Unless its a suicide mission
so
crew
ship
mission

Kirby

Merch wrote: »

even that order cant be right
mission cant be ahead of ship, it means the ship could be jepordised by the mission, then the crew would be jepordised.

Not easy to replace crew or ship, mission cant be done without either

Unless its a suicide mission
so
crew
ship
mission

You took that too literally. As in if you have to sacrifice the ship for the mission, you do it. The ship can be replaced and the mission could be important. Obviously because the crew is the most important aspect, you beam them off first.

Myrddin

The ship needs to be protected at all costs, the technology & information aboard it could be used to cost the lives of many many people, should any of it fall into enemy hands.

All that technical information, security information, & tactical information if lost to an enemy could be very costly. Look what Soran was able to do with one little piece of technical information

knucklehead6

I can understand Riker's reasoning, in that it's Mission > Ship > Crew.

You are ordered to carry out a mission. Those are your orders and it is your responsibility to carry them out.
They have priority.

You need your ship to carry out the mission, but the mission has priority over your ships safety. And don't say carrying a cargo of self sealing stem bolts. A frontline starfleet ship will not be required to do that... they will sometimes be required to get themselves into sticky situations, and extract themselves from same.

look at the battle to retake DS9? The Mission took Priority over the ships involved, and over the crews involved.

Your ships safety has priority over your crew.... In Spocks own words, the needs of the many, out weight the needs of the one, so if you need to order an officer or crewman to go do something that will likely result in their death, you do it. To save the ship. So the ship is able to carry out the mission.


Leaving Star trek, look at BSG... Galactica takes a hit to the port flight pod, fires and hull breaches, and they needed to vent the sections to save the ship... What was it tyrol said? 80 crew in that area??

helimachoptor

knucklehead6 wrote: »

I can understand Riker's reasoning, in that it's Mission > Ship > Crew.

You are ordered to carry out a mission. Those are your orders and it is your responsibility to carry them out.
They have priority.

You need your ship to carry out the mission, but the mission has priority over your ships safety. And don't say carrying a cargo of self sealing stem bolts. A frontline starfleet ship will not be required to do that... they will sometimes be required to get themselves into sticky situations, and extract themselves from same.

look at the battle to retake DS9? The Mission took Priority over the ships involved, and over the crews involved.

Your ships safety has priority over your crew.... In Spocks own words, the needs of the many, out weight the needs of the one, so if you need to order an officer or crewman to go do something that will likely result in their death, you do it. To save the ship. So the ship is able to carry out the mission.


Leaving Star trek, look at BSG... Galactica takes a hit to the port flight pod, fires and hull breaches, and they needed to vent the sections to save the ship... What was it tyrol said? 80 crew in that area??

I think that battle and in general the major Dominion engagements there was an expectation that a lot of lives will be lost (by everyone) but if people dont die then the Fed will lose the war and ultimately a lot more people will die.

Very interesting aspect of command tbh.

On a more relevant note, lets say your a Captain/Lt in Afghan or wehere ever. Your team is pinned down by enemy fire. Your only option is to order the machine gunner and his mate to break cover to higher ground to provide covering fire while you extract.

You know that A) you will all most likely die if you dont order him (and he successfully gets to higher ground that if you order him to do it, he has a very good chance of taking a bullet.

What do you do?
Obviously option B is the answer, the CO will know it, the machine gunner will know it and everyone is in the squad will know it.
But thats what makes them soldiers..

knucklehead6

helimachoptor wrote: »

I think that battle and in general the major Dominion engagements there was an expectation that a lot of lives will be lost (by everyone) but if people dont die then the Fed will lose the war and ultimately a lot more people will die.

Very interesting aspect of command tbh.

On a more relevant note, lets say your a Captain/Lt in Afghan or wehere ever. Your team is pinned down by enemy fire. Your only option is to order the machine gunner and his mate to break cover to higher ground to provide covering fire while you extract.

You know that A) you will all most likely die if you dont order him (and he successfully gets to higher ground that if you order him to do it, he has a very good chance of taking a bullet.

What do you do?
Obviously option B is the answer, the CO will know it, the machine gunner will know it and everyone is in the squad will know it.
But thats what makes them soldiers..

That's what makes them an officer/commander.

I don't know if that still holds true in Real Life, maybe we could ask over on the Mil forum. Remember the film K-19? That is based on a true story. The captain DID order his men into the reactor chamber, to save the ship.

I can easily see it holding true in the Trek Universe though.

nyarlothothep

I can see how the mission can take priority over the ship and crew in certain situations but...DS9 took trek in certain directions which either added to its depth or really compromised its vision depending on your perception. For example TNG was about how humanity had evolved into a more benevolent species above a simplistic militaristic/industrial complex culture. However DS9 showed that it was a sham to some extent, with organisations like Section 31, indicating that humanity had not evolved beyond it's militaristic/the ends justify the means attitude. For me, I felt the idea that the Dominion war forcing star fleet to make decisions it would otherwise not for its very survival was fine. However Section 31 ruined the premise/universe of starfleet a bit by basically inferring that humanity had never really progressed from the kind of organisations and institutions that were responsible for world war 3 and countless atrocities all in the name of the nation/security/[insert ideology here] etc .

Starfleet wasn't really a military service, it was primarily a scientific/exploratory organisation with militaristic elements inherited from the old navies of past ages, for the purposes of defence. In a circuitous way, I would say that privileging the mission in all cases is not desirable if your CO is corrupt or an idiot, and it would appear, at least with respect to TNG that the admiralty was full of them. That's what I really liked about TNG, Picard faced with the ethical dilemma of wiping out the borg. They transformed him, removed bits of his personality piece by piece and yet, as an individual capable of self reflection and deep thought, he decided that it was unethical to cause their extinction. That is what TNG was about, how humans could transcend petty tribal hatreds, how humans like Picard could live up to the fullest potential of their humanity by being capable of thought not influenced by fear or hatred but by rationality and ethical behaviour which are so lacking in our own time. Or what about when an admiral want to take Lol from Data. Picard was the man for telling him to fck off.

So yeah following orders to seal off a warp core fine, following them also to provide a last line of defence against a borg attack, also fine, following them just because you've been told to as in any contemporary military organisation, not good. I remember that DS9 episode with the ship full of cadets worshipping their cadet captain and talking about the importance of the team, and everything going pear shaped for them. And the episode basically ends with Nog reiterating the whole cultish team argument. Bah! They should have been thrown in the brig or made to repeat star fleet academy all over again at the end like what happened to Wesley Crusher over that manouvre. The whole following orders sir and for the team no matter what mentality is one that basically validates Q's argument about humanity being a greviously savage child race. One which Picard disproved throughout the course of TNG, although that disproval was subsequently undermined.

knucklehead6

nyarlothothep wrote: »

I can see how the mission can take priority over the ship and crew in certain situations but...DS9 took trek in certain directions which either added to its depth or really compromised its vision depending on your perception. For example TNG was about how humanity had evolved into a more benevolent species above a simplistic militaristic/industrial complex culture. However DS9 showed that it was a sham to some extent, with organisations like Section 31, indicating that humanity had not evolved beyond it's militaristic/the ends justify the means attitude. For me, I felt the idea that the Dominion war forcing star fleet to make decisions it would otherwise not for its very survival was fine. However Section 31 ruined the premise/universe of starfleet a bit by basically inferring that humanity had never really progressed from the kind of organisations and institutions that were responsible for world war 3 and countless atrocities all in the name of the nation/security/[insert ideology here] etc .

Starfleet wasn't really a military service, it was primarily a scientific/exploratory organisation with militaristic elements inherited from the old navies of past ages, for the purposes of defence. In a circuitous way, I would say that privileging the mission in all cases is not desirable if your CO is corrupt or an idiot, and it would appear, at least with respect to TNG that the admiralty was full of them. That's what I really liked about TNG, Picard faced with the ethical dilemma of wiping out the borg. They transformed him, removed bits of his personality piece by piece and yet, as an individual capable of self reflection and deep thought, he decided that it was unethical to cause their extinction. That is what TNG was about, how humans could transcend petty tribal hatreds, how humans like Picard could live up to the fullest potential of their humanity by being capable of thought not influenced by fear or hatred but by rationality and ethical behaviour which are so lacking in our own time. Or what about when an admiral want to take Lol from Data. Picard was the man for telling him to fck off.

So yeah following orders to seal off a warp core fine, following them also to provide a last line of defence against a borg attack, also fine, following them just because you've been told to as in any contemporary military organisation, not good. I remember that DS9 episode with the ship full of cadets worshipping their cadet captain and talking about the importance of the team, and everything going pear shaped for them. And the episode basically ends with Nog reiterating the whole cultish team argument. Bah! They should have been thrown in the brig or made to repeat star fleet academy all over again at the end like what happened to Wesley Crusher over that manouvre. The whole following orders sir and for the team no matter what mentality is one that basically validates Q's argument about humanity being a greviously savage child race. One which Picard disproved throughout the course of TNG, although that disproval was subsequently undermined.

I think the "i was following orders" defence was pretty much ripped up and thrown out the window during the Nuremberg and Tokyo Trials.

As far as i know, now the person/officer receiving the order has to make the call as to whether or not it is an ethical order.


And remember, Riker relieved Picard of command in that episode where it was a duplicate Picard that arrived back to the Enterprise, and had put the ship into jeopardy deliberately by attempting to pass through 2 stars gravity wells or something like that....

nyarlothothep

knucklehead6 wrote: »

I think the "i was following orders" defence was pretty much ripped up and thrown out the window during the Nuremberg and Tokyo Trials.

As far as i know, now the person/officer receiving the order has to make the call as to whether or not it is an ethical order.


And remember, Riker relieved Picard of command in that episode where it was a duplicate Picard that arrived back to the Enterprise, and had put the ship into jeopardy deliberately by attempting to pass through 2 stars gravity wells or something like that....

It still happens though in modern military institutions all over the world today. Yeah, I was wondering why the crew didn't relieve Picard of command in the Farpoint timeline in AGT, when he had first met them and was spacing out/talking to himself and giving what seemed to them, bizarre nonsensical orders, although I'll attribute that to Q's influence.

SarahBM

I think Tuvok would make a good captain, but only if he had a sufficiently emotional 2nd in command though. He could be "too" logical if you know what I mean.

could you imagine if Spock had been made Captain instead of Kirk (Star Trek movie)

Were there any Vulcan captains?

I would like to have seen a scenario where the captain and commander were both female too. might have been interesting.

Myrddin

SarahBM wrote: »

I think Tuvok would make a good captain, but only if he had a sufficiently emotional 2nd in command though. He could be "too" logical if you know what I mean.

could you imagine if Spock had been made Captain instead of Kirk (Star Trek movie)

Were there any Vulcan captains?

I would like to have seen a scenario where the captain and commander were both female too. might have been interesting.

Tuvok was captain of Voyager for about six weeks or so, when Janeway & Chakotay contracted a virus & had to stay on a certain planet to live. Not a bad episode too, & his lack of emotion was really starting to hurt morale, until Kes sorted him out

IvySlayer

There was also the Vulcan captain Sisko hated. Solok.

He captains an all Vulcan ship, which is surely against the principles of Starfleet?

Myrddin

IvySlayer wrote: »

He captains an all Vulcan ship, which is surely against the principles of Starfleet?

Definitely, I'd say they only wrote that in so that the baseball team would be all Vulcan

knucklehead6

EnterNow wrote: »

Definitely, I'd say they only wrote that in so that the baseball team would be all Vulcan

Was there not an All Vulcan crew in TOS too? Think their ship was destroyed and spock felt it somehow...? Or am i mixing up my stars? (wars/trek)

Myrddin

knucklehead6 wrote: »

Was there not an All Vulcan crew in TOS too? Think their ship was destroyed and spock felt it somehow...? Or am i mixing up my stars? (wars/trek)

Possibly, TOS is my weak area. Was it a Vulcan command ship though or a Starfleet ship?

IvySlayer

EnterNow wrote: »

Definitely, I'd say they only wrote that in so that the baseball team would be all Vulcan

DEATH TO THE OPPOSITION

Find him and KILL HIM!!

Oh Worf

knucklehead6

EnterNow wrote: »

Possibly, TOS is my weak area. Was it a Vulcan command ship though or a Starfleet ship?

I'm not the strongest there either but i'm reasonably certain that it was a Starfleet ship.

knucklehead6

USS Intrepid, from episode The Immunity Syndrome

Myrddin

knucklehead6 wrote: »

USS Intrepid, from episode The Immunity Syndrome

An all vulcan crew? Mad, seems very un-starfleet & discriminatory?