Friend Outing me to Other Friends

LegacyUser

Something has been bugging me lately. Recently I've started to accept the fact that I'm gay, and I've started coming out to my friends. I've told a few close friends at this stage, and unfortunately some people I wouldn't class as close friends. Everytime I have been very drunk. I guess its the only way I am able to discuss it, let my guard down. Anyways, that's beside the point.

So one of my best mates knows I'm gay. Let's call him John. One night I decided to come out to another friend, but when I told him he said he already knew and that John had told him. At this point I was really angry at John for telling someone else that I was gay. I just couldn't believe he would tell someone else such a big secret of mine. I didnt explicitly tell him not to tell anyone, but I thought it was a given. The whole situation nearly ruined our friendship. We eventually fixed things up, told him why I was so upset, and we were friends again (although I think I had lost the arguement because of how angry I got, it overshadowed the actual reason for the arguement and just had to let things go).

So a good while later I "decided" to tell another friend after a few beers. But again, John had already told this guy I was gay. Needless to say I was stunned, especially after what had happened before. I didn't get angry, but I was genuinely disappointed. I let him know how annoyed I was (probably got too worked up because of the alcohol), and the next day I tried to clear things up. But he was taking the high ground suggesting I was in the wrong for getting so annoyed, and it seemed like he was annoyed with me. I just left it at that and kind of backed down.

Was I in the wrong? Should I have gotten annoyed/upset on either occassion? Maybe its just the way I am but I know if one of my friends told me such a big thing I wouldnt go around gossiping about it with other people. Then on the other hand, I'm thinking that I might be being too harsh - maybe he's assuming its no big thing as I've told a few people already. I just don't think he understands.

Am I over-reacting? I don't know how to handle this situation. I could stand my ground and risk losing a friendship or back down and just accept the possiblilty that he has told many more people.

Thanks for reading.

L.Jenkins

OP, you have every right to be angry. It's a simple social courtecy, that you tell someone that you are gay and they keep this news in the strictess of confidence, until you are ready to tell others.

It's not something you should lose a friendship over and you could discuss it with 'John'. I would see it as a serious trust issue, but I wouldn't go at the situation and make a massive hoorah over it. Just let him know that it isn't on and shouldn't happen again in the future.

floggg

It's hard to say without knowing the context in which you told people, but for me, if its something you want kept a secret then you should make clear that its the case. You can't operate on the basis that these things are implied as others won't necessarily have the same way of thinking about these things as you or understand their importance to you.

Now if he told the second person after you'd told him to keep it quiet that's another story.

Some people generally don't think very much about sharing others secrets. I remember telling one friend in particular and I asked him to keep it quiet. In trying to convince me how good he was at keeping secrets he outed somebody else to me without even thinking what he was doing.

Now as it happens I knew from experience he was a loose canon and was prepared telling him for him to spread it. I figured though if he thought it was a secret he'd spread it discretely rather than blabbing to all and sundry.

toexpress

You have every right to be annoyed over this. Coming out is a personal thing and it should be private, something that you do on your terms and not on those of someone else. If I was you I would consider my definition of friendship.

We all have things that we want to keep to ourselves and tell people as when we want to. That is a right that we reserve and it is the height of disrespect for someone else to steal that right from you.

I would be showing John the door very quickly he is no friend

Shakti

I've had a similar experience, you expected more from 'John' and are feeling let down and that sucks.

ninty9er

From 'John's' point of view, did he tell the second person before or after you discussed it? It could be that he told numerous people before your conversation.

Maybe I just have a different perspective on things, but I always felt friends telling other people was a positive thing, it meant it was taken as normal and wasn't, as such, a big secret; but something that you don't talk about as an issue and whereby people just ask if there are any men on the scene at the moment as opposed to women.

Coming out is huge in most peoples heads before they do it, but once a few people know, the lack of reaction becomes a huge anti-climax. Even telling my parents was a huge anti-climax.

The only reason I sought people out to tell them was because I'd known them a very long time and didn't want them to think I was keeping something from them that lots of other people knew, I even got given out to by one really good friend because he heard it from someone else.

LegacyUser

Me again.

In regards to him telling the second person, I think it was before our conversation that he told him. I think he told him as a result of the first arguement - the guy was wondering what it was all about and John told him. Maybe at that time he didnt realise how big a deal it was (although he saw how angry I was).

There are a couple of things that bothered me about the whole thing.

1. It just seemed to me that he's treating it as some minor thing, basically gossiping about it behind my back. I know if someone told me a big secret like that, I wouldnt go telling other friends. In what situation would he have felt the need to tell someone else?
2. The fact that he never told me that he told other people. I wouldnt have minded as much if only he came clean.
3. How he's treating the whole thing now - he doesn't want to talk about it. I'm getting the impression that he thinks I am the one in the wrong for getting so annoyed.

In some ways I can understand where ninty9er is coming from - I know for a fact he has no issue with me being gay. We're pretty much best buds, even after I told him. But seeing as he's such a close mate I just thought he'd have a bit more tact.

I've no idea how to handle the situation. I don't know what I should say the next time I see him, or should I say anything about it at all?

rochey84

guest2579 wrote: »

Me again.

In regards to him telling the second person, I think it was before our conversation that he told him. I think he told him as a result of the first arguement - the guy was wondering what it was all about and John told him. Maybe at that time he didnt realise how big a deal it was (although he saw how angry I was).

There are a couple of things that bothered me about the whole thing.

1. It just seemed to me that he's treating it as some minor thing, basically gossiping about it behind my back. I know if someone told me a big secret like that, I wouldnt go telling other friends. In what situation would he have felt the need to tell someone else?
2. The fact that he never told me that he told other people. I wouldnt have minded as much if only he came clean.
3. How he's treating the whole thing now - he doesn't want to talk about it. I'm getting the impression that he thinks I am the one in the wrong for getting so annoyed.

In some ways I can understand where ninty9er is coming from - I know for a fact he has no issue with me being gay. We're pretty much best buds, even after I told him. But seeing as he's such a close mate I just thought he'd have a bit more tact.

I've no idea how to handle the situation. I don't know what I should say the next time I see him, or should I say anything about it at all?

Ok I know I could potentially get destroyed for saying this, but I think "John" telling people is actually a good thing, he is showing how little your sexuality matters to him as it should, he isn't your friend cause you sleep with women or men, he is your friend because of who you are not who you sleep with. But I do understand why you're annoyed.

With regard to the part of your post that I have put in bold, this is what I'm trying to tell you above it seems like a huge thing to you or any gay person to start telling people but at the end of the day we now live in 2012 and sexuality isn't a defining characteristic of your personality, to "John" it's probably the same as telling you that "Paul" has a new girlfriend.

The bit that is in Italics, again see above, because he doesn't understand how difficult it was for you he is probably afraid to tell you who else he has told.

Your final point I'll just say the possible reason he refuses to talk to you about it is he REALLY doesn't understand why it's such a big deal to you, by no means am I saying it isn't a big deal, but he just doesn't get it, so by not talking about it he probably feels that he is doing you a favour of some sort because he won't further upset you by saying the wrong thing.

What we as gay people have to understand is that the issues to us which seem massive, coming out, marriage equality, homophobia etc, are just minor social issues to the rest of the world, I'll give an example:

When I came out I never offically told my godparents and the day they found out my godfather rang me and he was full of congratulations telling me how proud of me he was for making such "a statement that most of us don't need to make" he wouldn't say I was gay, so eventually confusion got the better of me and I asked him what he was talking about and when he told me it was about me being gay, I just shrugged it off and said "well it's just a part of who I am" and he kept trying to tell me how he and my godmother were so proud of me and that they understood how difficult it must have been. The point of this example is my godparents went the other end of the scale than "John" did you know?

toexpress

I think it is all fine and well to say that John's behavior is showing how little sexuality matters and there may well be some merit to that. Of course the converse side of that is John could be someone who just loves to talk and talks out of turn a bit to often.

However the point that is being missed out here is that John has been disrespectful of the OPs right to privacy and to tell people on his terms and in his way. He has taken that away with total disregard and it shows a great deal of disrespect and nothing can get away from that. Regardless of how small he sees sexuality as John should be clued in enough to know that for the person addressing the issue it is a big thing and it needs to be addressed in a sensitive manner. I doubt that anyone of us here would have liked to have our friends running round outing us to all and sundry.

Think about it for a moment, we all have things that we wish to keep private and that we wish to hold to ourselves, maybe not forever but that is the way that it is. As we build a trust in people and maybe test waters with them in regards to our private issues and telling them about them we can gradually do it. That could be anything, from being abused as a child to having had an abusive relationship to having health issues and so on. For someone else to intrude in that way is totally unacceptable and it is minimizing the feelings of the OP

rochey84

toexpress wrote: »

I think it is all fine and well to say that John's behavior is showing how little sexuality matters and there may well be some merit to that. Of course the converse side of that is John could be someone who just loves to talk and talks out of turn a bit to often.

However the point that is being missed out here is that John has been disrespectful of the OPs right to privacy and to tell people on his terms and in his way. He has taken that away with total disregard and it shows a great deal of disrespect and nothing can get away from that. Regardless of how small he sees sexuality as John should be clued in enough to know that for the person addressing the issue it is a big thing and it needs to be addressed in a sensitive manner. I doubt that anyone of us here would have liked to have our friends running round outing us to all and sundry.

Think about it for a moment, we all have things that we wish to keep private and that we wish to hold to ourselves, maybe not forever but that is the way that it is. As we build a trust in people and maybe test waters with them in regards to our private issues and telling them about them we can gradually do it. That could be anything, from being abused as a child to having had an abusive relationship to having health issues and so on. For someone else to intrude in that way is totally unacceptable and it is minimizing the feelings of the OP

While I do agree with everything that you are saying here I think that it is fine within the confines of the LGBT community, the reality is that we live in a much bigger world, so while to us it is a massive betrayal of trust and disrespect to our right to privacy, to John or someone who doesn't see sexuality as that big a deal is probably regarding it similiar to telling you that Paul has a new girlfriend you know? Or do you think I'm talking through my ass?

It's like I said earlier that while it is a big deal to us, like marriage equality and homophobia, to the wider world they are just minor social issues/injustices.

floggg

Sorry, but unless the OP made it clear that it was to be kept secret, you can't blame him if he didn't realise it was to be kept secret. If you want something kept confidential its your responsibility to make that clear.

Rightly it wrongly he doesn't see it as being as big an issue as you, and how the duck could he - he's never been in your shoes. So it light simply he a case of him not appreciating at the time how serious it was for you, and assumed since you were telling him you were telling everybody.

When I was coming out to people I was very clear about who they could or couldn't tell. It was my secret so I took responsibility for setting the terms of its disclosure.

The fact that you failed to do that here means you can't get too upset with somebody for failing to recognise them.

professore

toexpress wrote: »

I think it is all fine and well to say that John's behavior is showing how little sexuality matters and there may well be some merit to that. Of course the converse side of that is John could be someone who just loves to talk and talks out of turn a bit to often.

However the point that is being missed out here is that John has been disrespectful of the OPs right to privacy and to tell people on his terms and in his way. He has taken that away with total disregard and it shows a great deal of disrespect and nothing can get away from that. Regardless of how small he sees sexuality as John should be clued in enough to know that for the person addressing the issue it is a big thing and it needs to be addressed in a sensitive manner. I doubt that anyone of us here would have liked to have our friends running round outing us to all and sundry.

Think about it for a moment, we all have things that we wish to keep private and that we wish to hold to ourselves, maybe not forever but that is the way that it is. As we build a trust in people and maybe test waters with them in regards to our private issues and telling them about them we can gradually do it. That could be anything, from being abused as a child to having had an abusive relationship to having health issues and so on. For someone else to intrude in that way is totally unacceptable and it is minimizing the feelings of the OP

Not true. If you want something kept private, then you need to make that clear to the person you are telling, especially if you have a group of friends and you tell one of them. You can't expect people to 'know' what you want kept private if you don't tell them. If it's that important to you then you should tell the person you want it kept private. It's like the way in the U.S. the first thing people tell each other is how much they earn. Here that would mostly be considered top secret.

If you had made it clear you were telling John in confidence and he still told well that's an entirely different matter ....

toexpress

Rochey I don't think you are talking out your ass at all, I see the point you are making and on some level I agree. But that doesn't take away from the fact that it is sensitive and it is something that shouldn't be widely discussed.

I am sure that when John told the first person and discovered that they had no idea of the OPs sexuality he must have had a moment where he thought to himself perhaps I shouldn't be discussing this. So for me, I could almost forgive that first one because as flogg pointed out he doesn't appear to have been clear in the parameters of this issue, but telling the second person I believe that he should have seen the red flag after the first. It was senseless and out of line.

rochey84

toexpress wrote: »

Rochey I don't think you are talking out your ass at all, I see the point you are making and on some level I agree. But that doesn't take away from the fact that it is sensitive and it is something that shouldn't be widely discussed.

I am sure that when John told the first person and discovered that they had no idea of the OPs sexuality he must have had a moment where he thought to himself perhaps I shouldn't be discussing this. So for me, I could almost forgive that first one because as flogg pointed out he doesn't appear to have been clear in the parameters of this issue, but telling the second person I believe that he should have seen the red flag after the first. It was senseless and out of line.

Yes but we don't know if John told the second person before or after it was made clear to him not to spread the news and as I said in an earlier post perhaps due to his lack of understand John doesn't want to admit to who he has told because I know in my case my friends all knew and were waiting on me to tell them (I'm not camp) but they had their theories so it could be a similiar situation here where John met the whole lot down the pub and just said "So Tom has finally come out" and that was the end of the conversation?

toexpress

professore wrote: »

Not true. If you want something kept private, then you need to make that clear to the person you are telling, especially if you have a group of friends and you tell one of them. You can't expect people to 'know' what you want kept private if you don't tell them. If it's that important to you then you should tell the person you want it kept private. It's like the way in the U.S. the first thing people tell each other is how much they earn. Here that would mostly be considered top secret.

If you had made it clear you were telling John in confidence and he still told well that's an entirely different matter ....

Well maybe it's just the fact that I operate on the basis that when you tell me something it is meant to be kept private. I had a situation recently where someone discussed something about me that I did not want to be discussed and as someone who is intensely private in some regards I found this unacceptable it in fact spelled the beginning of the end of a friendship with someone else. Either way I think that the better part of valour is discretion

floggg

toexpress wrote: »

Rochey I don't think you are talking out your ass at all, I see the point you are making and on some level I agree. But that doesn't take away from the fact that it is sensitive and it is something that shouldn't be widely discussed.

I am sure that when John told the first person and discovered that they had no idea of the OPs sexuality he must have had a moment where he thought to himself perhaps I shouldn't be discussing this. So for me, I could almost forgive that first one because as flogg pointed out he doesn't appear to have been clear in the parameters of this issue, but telling the second person I believe that he should have seen the red flag after the first. It was senseless and out of line.

I disagree. A third party's reaction isn't any accurate measure of the level of confidence required.

A stranger could react with shock or adversely to learning I'm a pro-choice atheist. Or indeed that im gay. Doesn't mean I'm bothered if you tell them.

toexpress

rochey84 wrote: »

Yes but we don't know if John told the second person before or after it was made clear to him not to spread the news

But that's not the point, John surely saw that the other person was not aware of the fact that the OP is gay he had to be aware on some level that this was news even if it was a brief fleeting moment that crossed the recipients face so he should have thought of that wonderful idiom about valour

rochey84

toexpress wrote: »

But that's not the point, John surely saw that the other person was not aware of the fact that the OP is gay he had to be aware on some level that this was news even if it was a brief fleeting moment that crossed the recipients face so he should have thought of that wonderful idiom about valour

But you see we don't know that, like I said in my previous post, it's possible that like in my situation all my friends knew but were waiting for me to tell someone! What you have said is pure speculation as is what I'm saying so until the OP weighs in lets us know or better yet John tells us his motives behind "spreading" the news.

And again if one of my mates breaks up with or gets with a new partner it might not be the friend in question that actually tells me and it's not earth shattering news, it's just news! We don't know the context in which John told these other people and it might have been a case of someone asking John how the op is and John just saying "ah sure he's grand now sure he finally came out"

LegacyUser

To clear up any confusion, no one ever suspected I was gay.

I am between two minds at the moment. Stepping into John's shoes I can kind of see where he's coming from. He looks at it as no big thing, doesnt see what the issue is, and is annoyed at, what he sees as, my over-reaction.

Do I just have to give up on him ever realising how big a deal it is for me? He clearly doesnt understand, and I don't think he will.

If I try to defend myself in this situation I think it will only make things worse (he is quite stubborn and I don't think he would back down).

MicraBoy

So one of your best mates knows you are telling people who aren't close friends while you are pissed? Clearly his interpretation of the situation is that you aren't REALLY that fussed. I can see why he might think that.

Reality is that when you tell any secret to someone you are giving up on your ability to censor it. When you tell people you don't trust you really can't complain when you loose control over that secret. It's open information essentially. With people you do trust you have the choice to ask them not to say anything, but you don't seem to have done this until it is too late.

Frankly I think you are doing that thing so many gayers do. They have this massive secret to tell, and they want everyone to be shocked and surprised and say oh I never thought you were gay. It's such a massive deal in your head you feel you are owed a certain level of reaction. Your friend is stealing that from you.

ixoy

Reminds me of what happened to me years ago. My best mate (whom I had told I was gay a couple of years before this) told me me about how he had met an old classmate on the bus who had some gossip for him: Ixoy was gay! My friend, knowing this of course, did try and probe as to where he'd heard it. He had heard it from another guy who, in turn, had been told by a guy I had recently outed myself too (let's call him Alex).

I asked Alex why he had told other people and he mentioned something about how he had been drunk and brought it up to shift a conversation. He didn't see that it was a big issue but I told Alex that it's not his place to say these things.

The issue then really is that, just because it can be a very big thing to us, it doesn't mean that all others will always treat it in the same way. There's a presumption we can make that's not always well placed. It's not malicious I don't think just born of a little ignorance.

LegacyUser

Hey guys. Just want to say thanks for all the advice. I haven't had a chance to talk to my friend yet, still dont know what to say. In one way I don't want to make a big deal of it, but in the same instance I don't want it to seem as an insignificant thing. Very difficult balancing act.

How should I approach it? I'm pretty sure he won't want to talk about it, sober at least.

ninty9er

guest2579 wrote: »

Hey guys. Just want to say thanks for all the advice. I haven't had a chance to talk to my friend yet, still dont know what to say. In one way I don't want to make a big deal of it, but in the same instance I don't want it to seem as an insignificant thing. Very difficult balancing act.

How should I approach it? I'm pretty sure he won't want to talk about it, sober at least.

But it is. You're gay. You're no different than before, very few people will be offended by it, or even interested. Dying your hair green would probably merit more discussion in Ireland in 2012.

I'm not meaning to be insensitive, but I'm wanting to put it in as matter-of-fact a way as I can.