Dublin Runway Incursion

Wise Old Elf

Just reading the AAIU report on a runway incursion in Dublin. Long report and interesting, but looks like the pilot who aborted the take-off was rightly on the ball. Fair play (and yes I know it's their job).

Hope this hasn't been already mentioned.

http://www.aaiu.ie/sites/default/files/report-attachments/REPORT%202012-017_0.pdf

Mboy

Very good read. Thanks.

Wise Old Elf

Indeed, the reports on AAIU are always a good read and are not too techy for someone (like me ) with little to no aviation knowledge.

A couple of things that struck me having read the report on the incursion (again, with no inside knowledge or experience):

• Given the location of the incusion, at the intersection of runways 10/28 and 16/34, I was surprised that there were not already stop bars installed.
• Equally surprised that they were allowed to use runway 10 and 16 simultaneously (although I understand why the Monarch requested the use of 10/28)
• It rains a fair bit in Ireland, so i was surprised that the wet taxiway was given as a reason for the lack of clarity for the taxiing aircraft. Presumed this would have been foreseen by DAA as an issue.
• Does this, and the other incursions mentioned give any credence to the idea of a parallel runway in Dublin. is it even needed?
• As already said, a nice bit of piloting by the take off pilot.

Sorry if the points above are a bit dumb, just my own thoughts on the report.

LLU

Interesting stuff. Hats off to the crew. From the transcript they clearly both had their wits about them. Very impressive to hear how they both spotted the incursion almost before it happened and immediately sprang into action.

Couple of things spring to mind:

• if they had been past the point of aborting take off, could they have instead maxed the engines and cleared the other aircraft?
• given the seriousness of the incident, why was the encroaching aircraft allowed to continue its journey without pulling the recorders?

basill

Disco,

Unfortunately, Dublin and most Irish airports are at best 2nd and 3rd tier airports by world standards. With all of the land surrounding most of the Irish airports you would think they would have done a better job. Here are a few examples that we put up with on a daily basis in Dublin:-

- place is full of cul de sacs which causes delays for inbound/outbound traffic
- there aren't enough stands at peak periods. This is noticeable when early Atlantic arrivals are parked waiting for a stand free
- at night there are any number of green taxi way centre lights which at most big airports (eg: LHR) you would follow onto stand to limit the chance of going off piste and/or conflicting with other traffic. In Dublin we are told that they were "wired" that way and so disregard your natural tendancy to follow them. We often comment on the flight deck that foreign operators must find it really challenging
- T2 is already at capacity for most of the day. AL is using Pier B extensively for its late night arrivals and early morning departures.
- the new terminal has been squashed into a place where it doesn't naturally fit. As a result there is considerable congestion on the south side as you try and get in and out of a cul de sac. Also there is no space to expand T2 should the need arise - which I believe it will, particularly as we come out of recession and the hub develops for connecting traffic
- 11/29 should be reopended giving the light jets and TPs a quicker approach using the ILS onto R28 for a cloud break if needed. This will reduce congestion on the main runway. It will also reduce traffic on the taxiways from the "light" traffic that has to navigate around the airport to get to their parking positions which are predominantly on the north side of the airport.

Fundamentally the airport design is far from ideal. Until a big dose of cash is injected then they can issue whatever reports they like and have silly little procedures to try and trap errors but I can't see a whole lot happening to be fair. There doesn't appear to be any real motivation on behalf of its owners to do anything in this regard. Sadly the airport infrastructure business is about retail these days no matter what they say.

Wise Old Elf

Very interesting Basill. Thanks for the inside viewpoint.

Just had a look at Google maps, and I presume the 11/29 runway you mentioned is at the northern periphery of the airport land. How long has it been out of service?

Very much see your point regarding stands, have experienced that on occasions in late night arrivals on EI flights.

re: DAA, it certainly seems that they're concentrating on retail etc and getting through the bare minimum on airside stuff. Living in Lk now and there are various viewpoints on DAA's role in the running of SNN as well, won't get into it here though, could go on for a while!

jasonb

Excellent read, thanks...

J.

Peregrine

I believe runway 11/29 was decommissioned in 2007. You might remember they used it to park Spanair and Kingfisher aircraft in February when Spanair went bust and Kingfisher ended their lease

The proposed new parallel runway would be located at the north side of the airport(if it ever goes ahead) and therefore runway 11/29 will have to be physically removed.

Strumms

Everything Basill said is spot on. Dublin Airport is one of the biggest planning **** ups in Europe. There was never any long term planning at all by any regime over the years. No forward thinking or any thinking full stop. They just kept adding a bit if they needed more space. If you want an example...Pier C.. Built and gone within a few years. The last 15 years has seen the airport as a virtual building site between taxiways and terminals. Add a bit, change a bit sheer madness. Only in Ireland.

murphaph

Any (good) reason why McEvaddy's plan to build the second parallel runway and completely move the airport (ie build a new one and close the current T1) to make it midfield (like Munich or the new Berlin airport etc.) never materialised?

Schönefeld was like Dublin and they bought a heap of land to build the new mid field BER.

Tenger

murphaph wrote: »

Any (good) reason why McEvaddy's plan to build the second parallel runway and completely move the airport (ie build a new one and close the current T1) to make it midfield (like Munich or the new Berlin airport etc.) never materialised?

Schönefeld was like Dublin and they bought a heap of land to build the new mid field BER.

AFAIK the McEvaddy plan was to build a new terminal to compete with rather than replace T1. In the end the current T2 won that tender process.

Has anyone here had a look at the proposed plan for Dublin airport in 2035? It was drawn up about 3-5 years ago,before the place went completely tits up. it shows a new parallel runway with a greatly increased aircraft stands. It is a mess. just builds on the existing mistakes. Pier A becomes a long finger like Pier D. Pier F is a smaller pier (50% of Pier E) located where the cargo terminal is now (no additional taxiways to ease congestion) And a new Pier F gets built running east-west along where Hanger 1-3 are now.

Place looks like a partially squashed spider. As basill points out long piers close together create bottlenecks and congestion.

Strumms

I forget the number of the stand its the one on T2 nearest the main terminal T2 building just opposite gate post 4 squashed in the corner. As you go in there is almost zero clearence if its an A321 between the aircraft sillouhette and the road. I know there are engine start zones further up near 411 but **** me you'd surly need your wits about you as you taxi onto that stand.