Supercharging an Alfa 156. spark @samsemtex

Niwou

I would be very interested to see what happened to this 156 ...
And to the 1.6 Turbo engine that was for sale ...

Niwou

I have a 156 2.0T.Spark that is turbocharged.
Even though some small things around the engine has given issues (human error I guess) the motor has proven to be extremely strong over the 15 000km since the conversion was done with taking some serious punishment at times.

JimmyCrackCorn

Thread Split as old thread was from 2010.

Suggest you try pm. It looks like the user samsemtx is posting in the Canadian section meaning he may now be abroad.

We do have some alpha experts on the forum and I do remember someone discussing a turbo race engine previously.

paddy147

Niwou wrote: »

I would be very interested to see what happened to this 156 ...
And to the 1.6 Turbo engine that was for sale ...

That was my fully forged race spec 1.6 turboed engine and it was 300bhp and 244 lb/ft torque at 15psi boost.I sold it to build a 400bhp 2 litre turboed engine instead.

The 1.6 engine is now in a rally car in Norway.

Niwou

Thanx for the reply Paddy147!
You are actually the guy I want to speak to as you seem to have knowledge about these engines and their abilities.

My 156 2.0T.Spark's Turbo conversion was done around 14 000km ago by a workshop called 'Turbonutters' in Pretoria, South Africa.
They have done a couple of turbo 2.0T.Sparks and a few V6's aswell.
(Very few 1.6 (just 147's) and almost no 1.8 T.Sparks in SA as we don't pay and big tax penalties on bigger engines.)
In most cases the only do a bolt on kit boosting anything from 0.5-0.8bar.
With my car compression was lowered to 9.0:1 by shortening the conrod with different bearing (I honestly don't know the details of this).
I believe that the standard conrods are forged items and the pistons aren't forged but of very high / strong quality.
Remember reading an article saying the pistons are actually forged, but couldn't find any info to back it.

My car is running anything from 0.4-0.9 bar boost which I can adjust via a Two stage TurboSmart manual boost controller.
Please keep in mind this car is a daily drive and not a toy, even though I do want reasonable power just to surprise the odd powerful car
The fueling and management setup is as follow, its running a standard management with standard injectors (170cc I believe).
Then there is a 5th injector (1000cc) being activated by a GoTech management once it picks up any boost.
According to Turbonutters (he is on AO forum) the standard management will retard timing as soon as it picks up knock from the knock sensor, do you think this is safe enough or not?

Niwou

Man oh man you have some nice parts on your 147!!!

I really like the exhaust manifold!
I'm currently running a smallish turbo (TD28) and would like to upgrade to a GT2860RS ball bearing turbo at some stage, then I'll build a exhaust manifold similar to yours.
Obviously I'll need to upgrade a few other things if I want to upgrade the turbo.

Currently I'm struggling with my intake manifold not being able to handle the boost.
The later versions had a plastic intake whereas the earlier models had a aluminum intake.
I'm considering either going for a OEM aluminum one building a custom intake.
I believe the standard alu intake also doesn't direct the air equally to all 4 cylinders and this causing cyl 4 to run leaner than the other 3.

Niwou

Niwou

Niwou

The car made good power on a dyno a year or so ago but I honestly think the dyno was a little optimistic.
330whp.
Here is a link to the video clip:
www.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DqbHFhDfVfcU&ei=jHyKUImTF8LLhAe3-YHYCQ&usg=AFQjCNHF39BF-ziqbb-QrVc274evD_aXaw&cad=rja

paddy147

330 wheel horse power on a standard engine,TD28 turbo and runing medium boost??

So thats around 360-365bhp at the flywheel and well over double the horsepower (2 litre n/a is 155bhp)

I think someone is seriously yanking your chain there and inflating the figures.

Are you running a propper FMIC on the car?



The welding on that manifold is awfull (shocking in fact) and I would not be happy at all with that.

You should also have an oil catch tank and not a little filter cap like that,as what you are doing is letting oil vapour drip down into the bottom of the engine and over the gearbox too.

Any bolt on turbo upgrade (regardless of power) should also be followed asap by propper brake and suspension/handling upgrades too.

paddy147

Oh and you also need to have some jubilee clips fitted to the black hose that connects the BOV (blow of valve).

Theres too much rubber hosing,metal pipework,silicone hosing and bends too.It could be made shorter,better and less clutered very easily.

paddy147

Anyway,best of luck with the car.

Niwou

paddy147 wrote: »

330 wheel horse power on a standard engine,TD28 turbo and runing medium boost??

So thats around 360-365bhp at the flywheel and well over double the horsepower (2 litre n/a is 155bhp)

I think someone is seriously yanking your chain there and inflating the figures.

Are you running a propper FMIC on the car?



The welding on that manifold is awfull (shocking in fact) and I would not be happy at all with that.

You should also have an oil catch tank and not a little filter cap like that,as what you are doing is letting oil vapour drip down into the bottom of the engine and over the gearbox too.

Any bolt on turbo upgrade (regardless of power) should also be followed asap by propper brake and suspension/handling upgrades too.

I'm not stupid when it comes to power figures on turbo cars and that it why I'm saying its an optimistic dyno that. LOL
I had a modified Seat Leon Cupra 2.0T making a real 315whp and around 450wnm, had a Ford Focus ST225, VW Golf 5 Gti DSG, Golf 6 Gti DSG & Manual, Audi S3 Man & DSG, Renault Megane RS and a few RX-7s.
I must add the car is seriously strong for what it is, on 0.4 bar it runs quite close to my friend's old Audi RS2 Avant once on the go.

Yes, the car has a propper FMIC.

Oil catch tank is next on the list to do once I have sorted the intake manifold.
I'm must say this creates quite a mess when the car boosts a little by spilling oil all over and sometimes even land on the exhaust causing some smoke.
Does the engine only have the one breather by the head or is there one down lower for sump compression as on the VW's?

I agree with you on the exhaust manifold.
It is really hard to find people doing a decent job with anything alike in South Africa.
The conversion was done when the car used to belong to a friend of mine, so I didn't have any say at that stage. I brought the car from him around 6 000km ago.

I do have a 20mm lowered suspension accompanied by new disc and performance pads. Most suspension bushes and mounts were replaced with new ones as well as new shocks.
Handling on the car really very good, but the brakes I'm soon changing to Gta 330mm units, but need to upgrade wheels at the same time.

Niwou

paddy147 wrote: »

Oh and you also need to have some jubilee clips fitted to the black hose that connects the BOV (blow of valve).

Theres too much rubber hosing,metal pipework,silicone hosing and bends too.It could be made shorter,better and less clutered very easily.

These pictures were taken just before I brought the car, I have canged the setup on the BOV a little already.

Niwou

paddy147 wrote: »

Anyway,best of luck with the car.

Thank you so much!

How strong do you reckon the standard engines are?
Do you by any chance know if the standard pistons are forged or not?

paddy147

Niwou wrote: »

Thank you so much!

How strong do you reckon the standard engines are?
Do you by any chance know if the standard pistons are forged or not?

They aint all that strong.

Oem gaskets are weak/suspect,as are the pistons and rods if you push them too far.They are not forged.You also need to look at the crank and its abilities too,you will do in the bearings too.ACL bearings are the way to go.

You need to do a good bit of head work and engine internal upgrading and replacement work to get big bhp figures.You dont just slap on a turbo,slap on a 5th injector and thats it.

We did 3 different heads on a CNC machine and tried 3 different types of flow rates,with regards how we built the top end,the plenum and runners.Also machining work on the actual block too.


As for using standard management,and standard injectors,and then using another ECU to control a 1000cc 5th injector,well thats just plain silly and pointless.Do it propperly and use a stand alone ECU to control everything.Get rid of the 5th injector and buy 4 upgraded injectors RC Engineering or Siemens injectors,330cc would be ideal.

Less electronics and less wiring,and less messing around

I used Omex 700 Pro management,and then changed over to a Motec M400,as I wanted to go for Motec management and digital LCD dash system too..

paddy147

Oh and for the love of god,upgrade the brakes and suspension/handling too.

You can have all the power in the world,but it will be useless if you cant stop the car and cant control the handling of the car too.

Niwou

Thanx for the advice!
I'll look into it all.

Guess strong is also relative.
I'm not looking for big HP figures, I just want to optimize the cars basic setup.
So I'm not trying to push it to its limits, just what to know what a safe limit should be and do realise there are no guarantees in this regard.
If I can make in the 250-300hp range I'll be more than happy.

The bearings have been upgraded but I'm not sure about these details.
Remember I'm running a lowered compression 9.0:1

I also not fond of the 5th injector setup!
I previously had a Honda EK 1.6 V-tec Turbo running such a setup and blew a motor because of this flawed setup.
The only reason the car is running the setup is because the conversion was not done for me originally.
Next on the list after sorting the small things out is to go 4x 440cc injectors ran by a UniQ (Unichip, they are based in Pretoria close to me) piggyback system.
Reason I want to go this route and not stand alone is to keep the driveablilty, smoothness, fuel economy and cold start.
Was considering a Gotech (I know the guy who started Gotech personally) or Dicktator aswell.
The 5th injector I want to replace with Water Meth Injection as I saw this was worth while on the Leon Cupra I had.

I do like you your idea of simplifying every thing.

The idea of the car is to be a daily drive with a bit of poke, for serious HP I'm busy getting things in place for a strong RX-7 (FD) when finances allow it again.

JimmyCrackCorn

Standalone ecu will provide factory drivability and cover cold start just fine. Any issues with drivability and cold start are usually down to the mapper not the hardware.

With a leaner or lean cylinder I would be looking for an ecu with individual cylinder trim as a short term solution while you isolate the cause. This could be an injector issue, placement of your 5th injector or manifold issue but I wouldn't feel comfortable until I was sure I wasn't cooking number 4.

Fifth injector tuning died off as big injectors got better.

Unless there is a specific restriction on why you can't go standalone or at least chip the factory ecu (if chippable) to have timing control you wont see the full benefit of your setup.

Also I 100pc agree sort the handling and stopping. Especially the stopping

Niwou

paddy147 wrote: »

Oh and for the love of god,upgrade the brakes and suspension/handling too.

You can have all the power in the world,but it will be useless if you cant stop the car and cant control the handling of the car too.

Suspension is upgraded slightly with all maintenance items needed done.
The car really handles very well.
I don't want a to hard core setup, remember I use the car daily and our roads are quite uneven at places.

Brakes I'm upgrading soon. Want to fit Powerbrake disc 330mm with Gta calipers.
I have an extra 164 3.0 24v (spare car for my 164 Quadrifoglio 3.2) of which I can take a set of good brakes.

Niwou

JimmyCrackCorn wrote: »

Standalone ecu will provide factory drivability and cover cold start just fine. Any issues with drivability and cold start are usually down to the mapper not the hardware.

With a leaner or lean cylinder I would be looking for an ecu with individual cylinder trim as a short term solution while you isolate the cause. This could be an injector issue, placement of your 5th injector or manifold issue but I wouldn't feel comfortable until I was sure I wasn't cooking number 4.

Fifth injector tuning died off as big injectors got better.

Unless there is a specific restriction on why you can't go standalone or at least chip the factory ecu (if chippable) to have timing control you wont see the full benefit of your setup.

Also I 100pc agree sort the handling and stopping. Especially the stopping

I know it is possible to get it running smoothly on standalone, the Honda I had ran very smooth when I fitted the Dicktator system, but took them forever to get it smooth.
Most tuners in South Africa are only worried about power ratings and couldn't car less about smoothness, driveability and fuel consumption.

The reason cyl 4 is running leaner is due to the way the air is directed by the intake manifold, remember in stock form the car sucks air (naturally aspirated) and its not forced into the manifold and engine.

5th injector is going to the bin pretty soon.

paddy147

Niwou wrote: »

Suspension is upgraded slightly with all maintenance items needed done.
The car really handles very well.
I don't want a to hard core setup, remember I use the car daily and our roads are quite uneven at places.

Brakes I'm upgrading soon. Want to fit Powerbrake disc 330mm with Gta calipers.
I have an extra 164 3.0 24v (spare car for my 164 Quadrifoglio 3.2) of which I can take a set of good brakes.

Well you will need bigger wheels if you want 330mm discs on the car.

I squeezed 320mm floating discs and 4 pot GTA calipers in under custom made 8 x 16 inch Compomotive MO race wheels.

The alloy bells were custom machined and 320mm disc wass the largest disc that could safely go inside the wheel.

330mm and 4 pot caliper will require 7.5-8 x 17 inch wheels,depending on width and offset.



Pic of standard 2 litre rod and piston (not forged)





Brembo GTA radial mount 4 pots inside 8 x 16 inch Compomotive.







Bespoke/custom machined Brembo 320mm floating disc and Brembo 4 pot caliper setup.

Niwou

Wow, very nice stuff you have there.
Would love to do that when finances allow.
Thanx for the advice!

paddy147

Niwou wrote: »

Wow, very nice stuff you have there.
Would love to do that when finances allow.
Thanx for the advice!

Best of luck with the car.

Hope it all goes well,for the future.

Regards.:)

Niwou

paddy147 wrote: »

Best of luck with the car.

Hope it all goes well,for the future.

Regards.:)

Thanx, same to you!

paddy147

Niwou wrote: »

Thanx, same to you!

Thanks.
Lets just say that I have something completely different lined up for the future,with regards to an Alfa Romeo and tuning.

Take car and happy motoring.:)

Niwou

paddy147 wrote: »

Thanks.
Lets just say that I have something completely different lined up for the future,with regards to an Alfa Romeo and tuning.

Take car and happy motoring.:)

Hmmm ... now you make me wonder ...
I'll keep my eyes open!

Niwou

Sooo ... I ended up frying the motor. LOL
One piston melted quite badly, but car was still running like that for quite a while.
This must have happened when the map go wiped off the Gotech after jump starting another car.

The car actually ran bearings due to it eating up two lobes of the cam shaft and all those metal deposits got into the sump and caused the bearings to cease up.
It was only after opening up the motor that we discovered the melted piston.

To make a long story short I am rebuilding the motor with forged Wossner pistons and I-beam forged Pauter conrods.
The management is also being changed and bigger injectors fitted.

Niwou

Niwou

Niwou

Niwou

Pics of the new Conrods: