Keysi Fighting Method

Gauss

Hi I'm just curious if anyone here thinks KFM would be effective in the world of MMA?

SDTimeout

Very effective. Surprised the UFC fighters have not started to use it myself.

Here's a really cool promo video of it. One of the coolest MA's for sure.

Richy06

Remember reading this article about it afew months back....
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2012/7/19/3170123/dark-knight-rises-movie-christopher-nolan-batman-keysi-martial-art

I don't think it'd be that effective to be honest.

Gauss

Richy06 wrote: »

Remember reading this article about it afew months back....
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2012/7/19/3170123/dark-knight-rises-movie-christopher-nolan-batman-keysi-martial-art

I don't think it'd be that effective to be honest.

Yea I always thought it would leave you vulnerable to an uppercut or knee to the face.

Dermighty

I did an mma seminar with some of the KFM people in 2008 in Cork.

One of the guys who made keysi (Andy Norman) now have an mma program called Ultra MMA, with Braulio Estima covering the ground aspects and Andy Norman covering the striking. I went to a seminar in July (Braulio and Andy were doing it) and it was very interesting. You'd need some intensive course work or very regular training to make it effective though and the KFM seminars are usually few and/or far between.

Ultra MMA Website

Mellor

It strikes me as needing to be choreographed in any clips I’ve seen. The attacker throws a punch and leaves hanging out there so you can tie it up and set up elbows/locks.
Looks great in a movie, but rarely happens in reality and never with training fighters. Loads of martial arts are really effective in set pieces but fall apart when sparring. Any KFM clips of guys sparring?
Close elbows are very fast and effective, but style in those videos looks like it leaves you very open and telegraphs them a lot.

Maybe the MMA specific stuff is better and i’m just considering it choreographed because of clips from movie sets.

cowzerp

Rubbish! It's basically folding up Like bottlers do when they are terrified of been hit, Alex Reid went to Spain to learn it in his program and the lad who developed it has no martial arts back ground and made it "from the street" complete and utter craap.

They had him sparring about 10 lads and he could only hit back when they said-totally unrealistic and simply would not work in anything but choreography

Dermighty

cowzerp wrote: »

Rubbish! It's basically folding up Like bottlers do when they are terrified of been hit, Alex Reid went to Spain to learn it in his program and the lad who developed it has no martial arts back ground and made it "from the street" complete and utter craap.

They had him sparring about 10 lads and he could only hit back when they said-totally unrealistic and simply would not work in anything but choreography

Well, both Justo and Andy are black belts in Jeet Kun Do.



Regards only hitting back when told, it's the same as a back and forth drill (eg: jab cross, then receive jab cross etc). the isea of sparring with 10 lads is to show that you can't block everything and that in a scenario like that no matter what you know you're probably still ****ed. with that in mind it's then shown that

---

>Keysi has an emphasis on minimising/mitigating damage taken and doing as much as you can while always looking for an out.

It's not a whirlwind of arm flailing bruce lee sh!t that kicks the crap out of three guys who jump you at a bus stop.

Regarding choreographing it, the idea with keysi is that everything feeds into something else, so taking the elbows for example, a direct elbow looks like there's a big open gap, but it's designed to hit and then feed another strike, example being a high direct elbow to a mid/low hammer fist. When taken in isolation it really does look terrible. Also having said that, Alex Reid made it look so stupid in that video.

I wish the kfm guys put more emphasis on teaching it rather than marketing it, because the whole marketing scheme is a joke (that's my opinion) but at the core there's a great martial art that's effective and fun to train.

In fairness, it's easy to knock it and I cringe when I see the promo videos. Having trained it I've seen how intelligent a lot of it is so I know better.

Be like Nutella

I get a pian in the back of my left eye when I see yet another 'system' being promo'd. There is no systems we've been through this all before - even BJJ on its own is a bunch of sh1te... MMA is MMA is MMA.. are elbows good? yes are leg locks good? yes kicking, punching, kneeing, takedowns... all good... when the person doing them is good at it... fighting is fighting and if you're not sparring you're not even trying to learn how to fight... not that sparring is even fighting anyway... vast majority of sparring is not anything remotely similar to what happens in the cage nor will it ever be or should ever be.. but if you're not sparring your so called 'system' against whats that SBG call it... an ALIVE opponent...then you're not gaining anything that will ever help you in a real fight... at least certainly not enough to bother spending hundreds of euro on. This system is so unlikely to be any good on the simple fact that guys are out there all across the world in well funded gyms on MMA teams all across America etc who literally count on getting the best training that can possibly exist so if they're not using it and I'm not seeing it win UFC fights then it's my balls! and punching is punching and grappling is grappling at this stage there is no more debate to be had and no more secret system bullsh1t to be debated... whatever you do you need to spar and fight progressively harder til you're actually doing it or you wont learn jack didly fukcing squat... can't believe people still debate this crap.. we're 10 years on from this : )))

aikido - boll0x
most of kung fu - boll0x
ITF TKD - Boll0x
Wing Ching chung - mostly boll0x
Wu Shu - boll0x
BJJ on its own without any striking training for cage or street - boll0x
anything without punching in the face - ultra boll0x

wana learn how to fight - do what fighting is: knees/elbows/punching/kicking/tripping/grabbing/wrestling/arm breaks/leg breaks/chokes/strangles/footwork... and at least you're on the right track.... but you still may suck at it (like me).. it's called MMA - there's way more than enough there already to learn as it is without inventing more crap... even the best fighters on the planet don't have a great grasp of every element so how the hell dya think there's a whole system's amount of stuff they havent spotted yet?

I call boll0x : )
MMA is MMA (took us long enough to admit that much)
everything else is major ballsaucery!

El Guapo!

Be like Nutella wrote: »

aikido - boll0x

Steven Seagal will hunt you down for that.

Mark Hamill

Dermighty wrote: »

In fairness, it's easy to knock it and I cringe when I see the promo videos. Having trained it I've seen how intelligent a lot of it is so I know better.

Know of any good sparring videos? Had a quick look on youtube and all I can see are demos or training videos. Videos of open sparring show off martial arts better imo (if the audience is experienced).

Be like Nutella

was only ranting for the craic really - I actually love the idea of aikido... love what Ueshiba face did... he was well ahead of his time mixin it up... and I wouldn't dare say it to Stevo's face either as he'd beat 7 shades of poo outa me 55 years old and fat as fcuk or not... but aikido ? for a real fight? cmon ... and as good as he was... and the first white dude non japanese to teach it in Japan etc lalala as he was - he is bleeding huuuge - about 6'4/5... I was at some party recently and some dude put clips of him doing his demos on the internet telly and I was drunkenly admiring old stevo throwing little japanese dudes around like napkins in the wind... but then I was thinking to my drunken self - man all martial arts before MMA are just so gay it's mental... how the hell is standing like an eejit doing chain punch blocking in wing chun sposed to teach you jack sh1te about a real fight? maybe against some dude you shouldn't be beating up but against a strong swinging drunkard or in a cage? cmon this debate has to have an ending point... I think most of the confusion about this stuff that still manages to remain is actually just based on the fact that those arguing (me and yee) mostly have **** all cage experience or MMA league experience or real sparring experience (most!)... if you sat 100 fighters in a room and tried to promo this sorta crap at them - they'd just laugh and leave

Be like Nutella

anyway this KEYSI stuff reminds of a martial art system (yawn) that a trainer explained (actually gave me a sorta class in for an hour) to me in Thailand which focuses on elbows and using the elbow to strike the attacking limb - like the fist or inside the knee kinda like Sherlock Holmes in that cool slo mo thing they did... anyway he said that I think it's Laos and Thailand used to or still do this kinda competition between them each year somewhere near the border where they turn up with their best guys and fight thai boxers (no gloves dirty stylee) against this other system from Laos and ... well...sounds like complete total me arse but all I can say is this trainer is one of the top guys over in Tiger and he's a solid dude and didnt have any reason to doubt him after a month of training with him 5 hours a day - anyway - he was showing me the style and how it works and what logic its based on and it was very interesting...actually seemed like it has a chance... basically you stay really low to the ground (literally almost crawling height on your honkers with one hand on the ground... and your opponent will be likely to kick you or strike down on you with a very predictable trajectory as you head is the likely only target and so you strike the attacking limb arm leg foot knee etc with your elbow to break or damage the joint - wrist etc... and then you advance from that point to take the guy down and wail on him with elbows... I'll always remember that story coz he told me about standing in the ring of people around one of these Laos v Thailand village fights years ago and watched some dude kill another guy... apparently... to which I said 'yeah my fukcing hole you did'... and he gave me this look that was all... you disrespecting bastrd... so I was kinda inclined to believe him - but that's all superfluous anyway...what the feck was it called?... could be Muay Lao

Mellor

Dermighty wrote: »

Regards only hitting back when told, it's the same as a back and forth drill (eg: jab cross, then receive jab cross etc). the isea of sparring with 10 lads is to show that you can't block everything and that in a scenario like that no matter what you know you're probably still ****ed.

Eh?
Only hitting back when told is fine when drilling. All martial arts do that I imagine. But you can’t call that “sparring”. Is there any sparring?
I said previous that it look choreographed, and unless sparring is very different it’s unrealistic. Cowserp’s post suggests my thoughts were right.

As previous, I’d need to see sparring to convince me its not bollox.

Dermighty

Going along with what people are saying about live sparring, keysi is always trained with that aliveness. The warm-up involves shadowing, which at the higher grades begins to involve other people of a similar level. There is very little done in keysi that isn't done with a live resisting (varying levels obviously) opponent.

Regards sparring videos, none that I know of. It's all changed since I've done it, the website is gone and Andy and justo have gone their separate ways. Seminars in the UK are your best bet. There are some great keysi And MMA schools, Gray Cook In Hull has a great MMA gym as does Tony Davis down near London. Either of those guys are your best bet.

Mellor wrote: »

Eh?
Only hitting back when told is fine when drilling. All martial arts do that I imagine. But you can’t call that “sparring”. Is there any sparring?
I said previous that it look choreographed, and unless sparring is very different it’s unrealistic. Cowserp’s post suggests my thoughts were right.

As previous, I’d need to see sparring to convince me its not bollox.

here is a rough indication of the format.

In a typical class: warm-up (shadow work). Introduction to a technique(eg clinch). Drill technique with a partner. Introduction to an application of that technique (eg takedown from clinch). Drill application with partner (back and forth), one for one perhaps) That's all done with mild resistance. Then a three man drill using the same technique, clinch+takedown, downed man recovers and does clinch+takedown, rinse repeat. Then an open three man spar using all techniques done up to that point (ie nothing in isolation). Shadow work. Class over.

So in that class the times when its done in a drilling fashion is up to the three man part.

Not that I'm a credible source for anything MA related but keysi is a good way to fight, but the marketing ruins/ruined it. It's nothing like the marketing crap you see on YouTube.

Mellor

Dermighty wrote: »

In a typical class: warm-up (shadow work). Introduction to a technique(eg clinch). Drill technique with a partner. Introduction to an application of that technique (eg takedown from clinch). Drill application with partner (back and forth), one for one perhaps) That's all done with mild resistance. Then a three man drill using the same technique, clinch+takedown, downed man recovers and does clinch+takedown, rinse repeat. Then an open three man spar using all techniques done up to that point (ie nothing in isolation). Shadow work. Class over.

I understand how drills work in training. That doesn't answer my questions from the first post though.

Does it work when sparring?
Can I see some sparring?

From the Alex Reid's story. He couldn't hit back when sparring (as well as drilling).

Dermighty

Dermighty wrote: »

Then an open three man spar using all techniques done up to that point (ie nothing in isolation)

Yes it works when sparring. The black belt gradings are effectively a three man sparring session.

There are no videos of the black belt gradings (which would be the clearest example) and KFM were really restrictive about videos they did release, so short of finding videos on youtube or elsewhere you wont find anything.

Mellor

Thanks for taking the time to reply.
I'll have a poke around youtube and see what I can find

Mark Hamill

Dermighty wrote: »

Yes it works when sparring. The black belt gradings are effectively a three man sparring session.

There are no videos of the black belt gradings (which would be the clearest example) and KFM were really restrictive about videos they did release, so short of finding videos on youtube or elsewhere you wont find anything.

You realise how that looks though? Plenty of choreographed videos, plenty of drills, but no sparring videos (at least, I couldn't find any). Do you know of any competitive fights? Are their KFM competitions or K1 (or the like) fighters who use it?

Dermighty

Mark Hamill wrote: »

You realise how that looks though? Plenty of choreographed videos, plenty of drills, but no sparring videos (at least, I couldn't find any). Do you know of any competitive fights? Are their KFM competitions or K1 (or the like) fighters who use it?

In response I'll quote my earlier post:

Dermighty wrote: »

Not that I'm a credible source for anything MA related but keysi is a good way to fight, but the marketing ruins/ruined it. It's nothing like the marketing crap you see on YouTube.

Keysi isn't a sport, it's for self defense, there's no competitive aspect to it similar to Krav Maga or any self defense style.

It looks weird, has really **** videos online, the website was utter crap, the whole marketing ethos was crap, I've done it, it's great to train, really fluid when trained properly.

I'm done with Keysi though, It's worth the effort if you live in the UK (access to great trainers multiple times a week), Ireland was just too small for it to take off.

DrPhilG

Be like Nutella wrote: »

aikido - boll0x

Dean09 wrote: »

Steven Seagal will hunt you down for that.

Be like Nutella wrote: »

was only ranting for the craic really - I actually love the idea of aikido...

No use backtracking now. What has been said cannot be unsaid.

He's coming...

cowzerp

Dermighty wrote: »

In response I'll quote my earlier post:

Keysi isn't a sport, it's for self defense, there's no competitive aspect to it similar to Krav Maga or any self defense style.

It looks weird, has really **** videos online, the website was utter crap, the whole marketing ethos was crap, I've done it, it's great to train, really fluid when trained properly.

I'm done with Keysi though, It's worth the effort if you live in the UK (access to great trainers multiple times a week), Ireland was just too small for it to take off.

If effective it would still be used in Mma, the reason you don't see sparring videos is because 1. I doubt they spar. B. it would show it up for the muck it is.

Dermighty

cowzerp wrote: »

If effective it would still be used in Mma, the reason you don't see sparring videos is because 1. I doubt they spar. B. it would show it up for the muck it is.

You're entitled to your opinion.

I've answered all the questions here as best I can anyway.

cowzerp

Dermighty wrote: »

You're entitled to your opinion.

I've answered all the questions here as best I can anyway.

Yes and i'll reaffirm that-It's never been seen to work other than on choreographed scenes-Therefore my opinion is happy to stay the same.

Mark Hamill

Dermighty wrote: »

Keysi isn't a sport, it's for self defense, there's no competitive aspect to it similar to Krav Maga or any self defense style.

Can never understand why self defense arts tend to avoid competition. I know that certain aspects of self defense don't translate into a competitive setting as such (things like situational awareness) but competition is a great way to get high levels of aggression and aliveness from an opponent you don't know.
(I'm musing here, I realise you may not have an answer for it)

Dermighty wrote: »

It looks weird, has really **** videos online, the website was utter crap, the whole marketing ethos was crap, I've done it, it's great to train, really fluid when trained properly.

Have you ever used it in sparring or competition in another martial art setting?