Riello burner oil pumps seized after fill

scooter77

Newbie here, can't find similar thread, so starting a fresh one...

We had a new fill of oil there last week, on top of a 20% full tank, i.e. the tank wasn't empty.

The burner (Riello 40) was working fine for 1 day, then it locked out (red light came on), and we've (heating engineer) has done the following:

1. Changed the capacitor, worked for a day, then crapped out again.
2. New oil pump in the burner, worked for a day, then crapped out.
3. Gave us a reconditioned burner, worked for 2 days then crapped out.

He's bled the oil pump and set the pressure in the oil pump to 5 bar. The brand new oil pump that lasted 1 day, he said was seized. I reckon the same has happened to the pump in the reconditioned burner now.

So, I reckon it's oil related. Has sludge been churned up in the tank?, or have we been given dodgy oil? Or has the filter on the tank-side suddenly given up, allowing sludge into the oil line, hence seizing up the pump.

Anyone have any similar problems / solutions? At a loss as to what is up with it.

Really hope we don't have to get the tank emptied :mad:

thanks!

Billy Bunting

scooter77 wrote: »

He's bled the oil pump and set the pressure in the oil pump to 5 bar. The brand new oil pump that lasted 1 day, he said was seized. I reckon the same has happened to the pump in the reconditioned burner now.

Yes you can stir up crap.

Exactly what Boiler and Burner do you have ??

Riello Burner come preset at 8bar, has your Engineer checked your fuel for contamination ? has he removed the filter from the oil pump?

scooter77

Hi, thanks for replying.

The pressure on the oil pump is actually 8 bar, my mistake.

Yep, he's checked the filter on the oil pump, its clear. Not sure of exact burner spec, but looks like this one:

http://www.riello-burners.com/2_products/2_oil-burners/images/3_40-series_burner.jpg

Can you easily check for fuel contamination?, how would you do that? Looks like the filter is clear at the burner end anyway, and oil is getting through, so maybe the fuel is dodgy somehow.

cheers!

boiler break downs

scooter77 wrote: »

Hi, thanks for replying.

The pressure on the oil pump is actually 8 bar, my mistake.

Yep, he's checked the filter on the oil pump, its clear. Not sure of exact burner spec, but looks like this one:

http://www.riello-burners.com/2_products/2_oil-burners/images/3_40-series_burner.jpg

Can you easily check for fuel contaminatio youn?, how would you do that? Looks like the filter is clear at the burner end anyway, and oil is getting through, so maybe the fuel is dodgy somehow.

cheers!

when you press the reset button what happens.

scooter77

Yep, when resetting there's a buzzing sound coming out of the burner, then the red light just pops out again.

jimf

im afraid at this stage you have to rule out fuel contamination
as the first course of action your service engineer should be able to do this without too much trouble that buzzing sound possibly indicates fuel pump seizure you just cant continue to try different pumps burners etc it will cost you a fortune

scooter77

He did give us a 1 yr warranty after the original work when the first burner/oil pump gave up (it was 4yrs old by the way). So all this extra work is covered, luckily!

At the moment the engineer is putting it down to a dodgy batch of oil pumps! He got another one from a different supplier, and it's working just now... so far. Says it has more 'play' in the workings than the others. If it follows the previous ones, it'll give up in 1-2 days!

He did look at the oil, and the tank (for leaks etc...) and tank filter, and said it all looked fine.

I'm sceptical it was a "dodgy batch of pumps", but we'll see...

Ellfish

Hi Scooter,

Im not sure whats going on here, but yes, your problem could be fuel related. Did you buy your fuel from a reputable company? I am not saying anything, but very cheap fuel could possibly be laundered fuel...

jimf wrote: »

im afraid at this stage you have to rule out fuel contamination
as the first course of action your service engineer should be able to do this without too much trouble

Hi jim, I'm not sure a service engineer could verify the fuel. @Scooter: Would be interested to hear what your service engineer says on this matter...

Scooter, before you keep replacing expensive parts continually, what I would do if it was my system is I would have the filter replaced. Quick, cheap and easy and possibly the source of your problems.

Ellfish

jimf

water contamination is the only test an engineer can do on site
maybe your engineer has been unlucky with a faulty batch of pumps but i personally have had no problems with riello pumps recently and have fitted about 6 in the last couple of months rdb pumps were a problem some years ago but solved now

maybe others in the trade might comment please

scooter77

Thanks Ellfish, know where I could source a filter?

Yes, I've only recently heard about the laundering of fuel, especially around the north east / border.

We're in an 'oil club', so we order through them.

We're had oil from this supplier before without issue though, so who knows!

Robbie.G

scooter77 wrote: »

Thanks Ellfish, know where I could source a filter?!

We got the oil from NR Filling Station in Dundalk. Yes, I've only recently heard about the laundering of fuel, especially around the north east / border.

We're in an 'oil club', so we order through them, quite often it's Campus oil or the NR truck that turns up.

We're had oil from NR before without issue though, so who knows!

You would get a new oil filter in Dpl on the ramparts Heatmerchants on the coes rd or Dundalk plumbing in mill st

shane0007

One possible fault that is being missed is faulty wiring. Has the voltage being checked to the burner. First burner changed and still same fault with second burner! Only 2 factors remain the same, fuel and power. It could well be contaminated or dodgy fuel but if clean and proper colour, it should be ok.
Check the voltage to the burner. Remember a broken neutral becomes live but not giving 230V. Might only be giving 150V or any other voltage that is not enough to turn the motor.
Check voltage to burner with a multimeter and not a phase tester.
My money is on this fault. Probable location of the faulty wiring is the neutral in the boiler thermostat.

aujopimur

Ellfish wrote: »

Hi Scooter,

Im not sure whats going on here, but yes, your problem could be fuel related. Did you buy your fuel from a reputable company? I am not saying anything, but very cheap fuel could possibly be laundered fuel...

I'd like to know why anyone would launder fuel and then sell it as heating oil.

shane0007

Because they can make money from it. It is generally easy to detect from its colour. It is generally clear and not red. I had a call out last year to an oil boiler bellowing out black smoke filling the estate with black dense smoke.
Cleaned it after about 2" thick of soot, I was covered from head to toe in it. Went to,check the fuel and colour was clear. Neither kero or gas oil. Asked customer where they got their fuel and was told a bloke knocked on the door selling drums of kero for €16 per 20 litre drum. Turned out it was laundered and had sulphuric acid in it. A costly clean up for,the customer but served them right as my first thought would have been the kero came from somebody else's tank.

jimf

yes shane could well be what the problem is but poster states their service engineer
confirmed a 1 day old pump was seized we no this is very unlikely to happen unless it
wasnt seized and he was just hoping for a fix

shane0007

Could be, yes of course. If I was suspicious of the fuel I would have not put 3 new pumps on it. I would have got a known good source of fuel and set up a temporary supply to it, say from a drum and ran to prove it was dodgy fuel. A loose connection can produce intermittent voltage which would also give the impression that the motor was stuck, hence, new pumps, thinking the humming was from first a faulty capacitor, then concluding it was seized pumps. Pump filters are clean so it is not debris. Laundered fuel would generally not seize the pumps that quickly. It really just soots up as it does not burn correctly. Prolonged burning will damage the pumps but it would soot too much before that.
Hence, supply voltage....

scooter77

Interesting point on the voltage.

That will be our next thing to check. We've been running for a day with latest pump, so if its still going on Wednesday then its lasted longer than the others!

Oh, the fuel is pinky red in colour and isn't sooting up, plus engineer said it was clean. So fuel maybe not the cause.

Will check power if/when this latest pump gives up! Thanks.

shane0007

I would still check the wiring whether it packs up again or not as a loose connection might result in melting of the cable and possible fire risk. It is only a matter of removing the thermostat cover and checking all connections and voltage readings. If the burner is a RDB, also check the push in connections to the control box, but problem out likely to be in the thermostat.

scooter77

shane0007 wrote: »

I would still check the wiring whether it packs up again or not as a loose connection might result in melting of the cable and possible fire risk. It is only a matter of removing the thermostat cover and checking all connections and voltage readings. If the burner is a RDB, also check the push in connections to the control box, but problem out likely to be in the thermostat.

Thanks Shane. Engineer said wiring was ok, so we're going down the fuel issue route. Looking at getting a drum then running burner off that for a couple days.

shane0007

Did he check all the lives & neutrals with a multi-meter or just check with a phase tester and/or riffle the cables for connections. The broken neutral could be further back than the thermostat. It could even be at the time lock. Unless checked with a multi-meter, it is not checked.

scooter77

shane0007 wrote: »

Did he check all the lives & neutrals with a multi-meter or just check with a phase tester and/or riffle the cables for connections. The broken neutral could be further back than the thermostat. It could even be at the time lock. Unless checked with a multi-meter, it is not checked.

Thanks for the info Shane, much appreciated.

Think we've gotten to the bottom of the cause, water in the oil! Should have it sorted tomorrow hopefully.

Billy Bunting

scooter77 wrote: »

Think we've gotten to the bottom of the cause, water in the oil! Should have it sorted tomorrow hopefully.

Amazing!! you were advised as early as post number 2 for the engineer to check for contamination of the fuel, did your man not even have the ability or no how to check for water. :rolleyes:

shane0007

You see that is the difference between somebody who understands a system and somebody who plugs and plays! The questions are asked, we assume they are checked and can only assume they are eliminated. Contamination is rare from a reputable source. Every service the oil tank should be checked with water detection paste for contamination. after changing each puml, did he analyise the flue gases or just switch it on and if it fires it works, so it must be grand? Somebody who puts 3 pumps on a boiler without knowing the cause, well we all know the rest of that sentence.

scooter77

Billy Bunting wrote: »

Amazing!! you were advised as early as post number 2 for the engineer to check for contamination of the fuel, did your man not even have the ability or no how to check for water. :rolleyes:

Fair point, i think he was convinced it was an oil pump or electrics issue. First time we've ever had issues with fuel.

Yes it took too long to identify it was fuel, he did check it initially to see what it looked like, but obviously didn't check for water at that point. :-(

scooter77

shane0007 wrote: »

You see that is the difference between somebody who understands a system and somebody who plugs and plays! The questions are asked, we assume they are checked and can only assume they are eliminated. Contamination is rare from a reputable source. Every service the oil tank should be checked with water detection paste for contamination. after changing each puml, did he analyise the flue gases or just switch it on and if it fires it works, so it must be grand? Somebody who puts 3 pumps on a boiler without knowing the cause, well we all know the rest of that sentence.

He checked the flue gases every time, after pump was changed.

Again, thanks for the info.

jimf

what action does your engineer propose to eliminate the problem now

scooter77

jimf wrote: »

what action does your engineer propose to eliminate the problem now

Empty tank of contaminated fuel and refill. Then bleed oil line of all old fuel. Allow new fuel into oil line, then bleed line and oil pump for air. Oh, and change filter at tank.

Anything missing there?

shane0007

scooter77 wrote: »

Empty tank of contaminated fuel and refill. Then bleed oil line of all old fuel. Allow new fuel into oil line, then bleed line and oil pump for air. Oh, and change filter at tank.

Anything missing there?

Nothing missing just a couple of things too many, such as emptying the tank and refilling, unless the bottom of the tank is totally sludged up. All that needs to be done is remove the water contamination via an oil vacuum pump. This will remove the water from the bottom of the tank without the need for emptying. A very simple and quick process.

jimf

fully agree total overkill also just check condition of fuel supply hose to burner
with all the farting around removing and refitting burners it may have cracked internally without being noticed

tfjmor

jimf wrote: »

fully agree total overkill also just check condition of fuel supply hose to burner
with all the farting around removing and refitting burners it may have cracked internally without being noticed

I think FAS / VEC should organise night courses in domestic boiler maintenance as I understand are available for motor vehicle servicing.
My experience with manufacturer approved service engineers leaves a lot to be desired. The heating installation in my duaghters new house was without a filter in the fuel line. The boiler had to be attended to several times since installation in 2006 by manufacturer approved engineers but no one discovered that a filter was not fitted. I personally discovered this ommission and discovered the equivalent of a teaspoon full of grit when I removed the pump endplate and this necessitated a new oil pump but instead I replaced the burner assembly. I have yet to experience service engineers using an oil pressure guage & a cusbustion gas analyser when servicing.

It is relatively easy to obtain a workshop manual for a motor vehicle engine, gearbox etc. but it appears it is not possible to do so for a domestic central heating boiler:mad:

Billy Bunting

tfjmor wrote: »

I have yet to experience service engineers using an oil pressure guage & a cusbustion gas analyser when servicing.

Suggest you use the Oftec website when looking for your next Engineer.

shane0007

tfjmor wrote: »

I think FAS / VEC should organise night courses in domestic boiler maintenance as I understand are available for motor vehicle servicing.

And this will improve the industry how?

tfjmor wrote: »

My experience with manufacturer approved service engineers leaves a lot to be desired. The heating installation in my duaghters new house was without a filter in the fuel line. The boiler had to be attended to several times since installation in 2006 by manufacturer approved engineers but no one discovered that a filter was not fitted. I personally discovered this ommission and discovered the equivalent of a teaspoon full of grit when I removed the pump endplate and this necessitated a new oil pump but instead I replaced the burner assembly. I have yet to experience service engineers using an oil pressure guage & a cusbustion gas analyser when servicing.

It is relatively easy to obtain a workshop manual for a motor vehicle engine, gearbox etc. but it appears it is not possible to do so for a domestic central heating boiler:mad:

When you say "manufacturer approved", what do you mean by this? Is that an engineer that was given to you by the manufacturer or they just had the manufacturer's logo sticker on their van?

All manufacturer approved engineers are OFTEC registered. You should have been given a CD11 completion form which would have highlighted any installation issues.

TPM

tfjmor wrote: »

I think FAS / VEC should organise night courses in domestic boiler maintenance as I understand are available for motor vehicle servicing.
My experience with manufacturer approved service engineers leaves a lot to be desired. The heating installation in my duaghters new house was without a filter in the fuel line. The boiler had to be attended to several times since installation in 2006 by manufacturer approved engineers but no one discovered that a filter was not fitted. I personally discovered this ommission and discovered the equivalent of a teaspoon full of grit when I removed the pump endplate and this necessitated a new oil pump but instead I replaced the burner assembly. I have yet to experience service engineers using an oil pressure guage & a cusbustion gas analyser when servicing.

It is relatively easy to obtain a workshop manual for a motor vehicle engine, gearbox etc. but it appears it is not possible to do so for a domestic central heating boiler:mad:

There are plenty of registered and competent technicians around to service repair and maintain oil boilers. But like everything there are alot of cowboys and chancers around too.
I would be fairly sure that everyone on here that has gone to an oil boiler installation and pointed out the things that were wrong and/or needed attention (like the missing filter you mention) have all been told on many an occassion
"the last lad said it was fine you are just looking for more work"
"it cost me less last time and he found nothing wrong"
or something along those lines.
Technicians carrying out proper oftec services are not out to con people of make more work in fact they are trying to minimise work and break downs and generally look after their customers. Return customers are essential and you have to offer good service and value to get this.

There is a lot more to servicing a boiler than just the mechanical end of it, There are a lot of visual assessments that are made based on experience e.g the colour and type of soot, ash and or corrosion in the fire box. But the big one for me that most people are not aware of is the risk of carbon monoxide poisoning from indoor and poorly located outside boilers.

tfjmor

Billy Bunting wrote: »

Suggest you use the Oftec website when looking for your next Engineer.

Thank you Billy Bunting, This is most useful

tfjmor:)

tfjmor

TPM wrote: »

There are plenty of registered and competent technicians around to service repair and maintain oil boilers. But like everything there are alot of cowboys and chancers around too.
I would be fairly sure that everyone on here that has gone to an oil boiler installation and pointed out the things that were wrong and/or needed attention (like the missing filter you mention) have all been told on many an occassion
"the last lad said it was fine you are just looking for more work"
"it cost me less last time and he found nothing wrong"
or something along those lines.
Technicians carrying out proper oftec services are not out to con people of make more work in fact they are trying to minimise work and break downs and generally look after their customers. Return customers are essential and you have to offer good service and value to get this.

There is a lot more to servicing a boiler than just the mechanical end of it, There are a lot of visual assessments that are made based on experience e.g the colour and type of soot, ash and or corrosion in the fire box. But the big one for me that most people are not aware of is the risk of carbon monoxide poisoning from indoor and poorly located outside boilers.

TPM Many thanks - I agree 100%. Regretably, the engineers were recommended by the manufacturer. I have taken Billy Bunting sound advice and in future will select from OFtec registered list for my area. Live & Learn.
tfjmor

petergdub

Oh Jesus.
I live in Dublin and ordered a fill up from a company north of Dublin.

I'm looking at my credit card bill:
17th Oct 760 euro refill "XXXXXXXXX".

Guess what?
22nd Oct 771 euro for a new Riello Burner
The engineer has been out several times since - its crapped out again this morning having worked for the last couple of weeks.

There's another chap due out this afternoon.
No idea what my next step should be.

shane0007

petergdub wrote: »

Oh Jesus.
I live in Dublin and ordered a fill up from the exact same company -

I'm looking at my credit card bill:
17th Oct 760 euro refill

Guess what?
22nd Oct 771 euro for a new Riello Burner
The engineer has been out several times since - its crapped out again this morning having worked for the last couple of weeks.

There's another chap due out this afternoon.
No idea what my next step should be.

€771 for a new burner!!! Did he fit one in your neighbour's too for that money?

I would also not name a company here as it may not be there fault until tests have been carried out and proven otherwise.

petergdub

I've not directly implicated the company - it may of be a coincidence / faulty batch of Riello burners.
When the issue is finally sorted I will repost.

Regarding the specific issue, the engineer ran a number of diagnostics.
I've 2 Flue Gas Analysis printouts here in front of me.
Not sure if significant but I notice that the Fuel on the printout states "Light Oil" - while I've always had a Kerosene burner / ordered Kerosene fuel.

Also the burner has been working for 2 weeks without issue

shane0007

petergdub wrote: »

I've not directly implicated the company - it may of be a coincidence / faulty batch of Riello burners.
When the issue is finally sorted I will repost.

Regarding the specific issue, the engineer ran a number of diagnostics.
I've 2 Flue Gas Analysis printouts here in front of me.
Not sure if significant but I notice that the Fuel on the printout states "Light Oil" - while I've always had a Kerosene burner / ordered Kerosene fuel.

Also the burner has been working for 2 weeks without issue

Kerosene is Light Oil

jimf

petergdub wrote: »

Oh Jesus.
I live in Dublin and ordered a fill up from a company north of Dublin.

I'm looking at my credit card bill:
17th Oct 760 euro refill "XXXXXXXXX".

Guess what?
22nd Oct 771 euro for a new Riello Burner
The engineer has been out several times since - its crapped out again this morning having worked for the last couple of weeks.

There's another chap due out this afternoon.
No idea what my next step should be.

why did the engineer see fit to change the burner and as shane has pointed out thats a crazy price 771 eu

DGOBS

As Shane said, did he give you a spare burner too!
I had another customer quoted 800 for a new burner, the old one required a €1 hyd. Jack seal to repair!

TPM

If we could all get €770+ to change a burner we would be trying to fit a lot of them:p

Its shameful that people are firstly been told they need new burners when they dont and secondly to be charge silly money. Leading people to thing all trade people are robbers.

between this and the lads charging f@#k all cos they are not paying tax, insurance etc it gets harder to make money day by day.

jimjimt

For €771 plus vat you could buy a whole new boiler and burner, without fitting of course.

Just to point out most OFTEC guys are excellent like all professions. Some are not like all professions.

OFTEC do not train or qualify engineers but technicians. Always be wary of the person who is posing as an engineer and something they are not.

Engineer has to be the most abused word in the english dictionary.

Tech74

Similar issue. 1 year old RDB burner. Unit left off for one week due good weather then wouldn't light. Fault traced to shear pin in heart of pump..rust damage leading to gouging of the inner gear. Fuel from a reputable company but clearly some water content. Pump is toast as Riello dont seem to offer repair kits. This pump was an RBL 20030285. Manufactured a replacement pin but the gear damage meant the pump won't turn when re-assembled...

Wearb

Tech74 wrote: »

Similar issue. 1 year old RDB burner. Unit left off for one week due good weather then wouldn't light. Fault traced to shear pin in heart of pump..rust damage leading to gouging of the inner gear. Fuel from a reputable company but clearly some water content. Pump is toast as Riello dont seem to offer repair kits. This pump was an RBL 20030285. Manufactured a replacement pin but the gear damage meant the pump won't turn when re-assembled...

Water or dirt will do that alright. That is why it's important to check filters and tank for water on every annual service.