Spiderbox extra could be gone

Headshot

lol and here's me pmming manc about this yesterday, wondering why I was a special case

Well there's strong rumors that spiderbox extra features could be gone for good,

I feel for the people who have bought new boxes recently.

Oat23

Anything else happen with this? Gone or is it back?

Headshot

Oatesy23 wrote: »

Anything else happen with this? Gone or is it back?

Looks to be gone and a new thing that you have to pay for has come in.

Decided to sell my spiderbox anyway

cough sig cough

Pal

gone here too.

time to learn how this cccam thing works

(everything I ever buy from that aslat crowd goes bogey in the end !)

azzeretti

It's ALL going to end soon if you believe the whispers - I wouldn't doubt it either, must be costing a fortune in lost revenue.

recyclebin

azzeretti wrote: »

It's ALL going to end soon if you believe the whispers - I wouldn't doubt it either, must be costing a fortune in lost revenue.

I sincerely doubt it. A quick Google search tells me that they would have to change all the sky boxes to stop all the illegal card sharing that is going on.

azzeretti

recyclebin wrote: »

I sincerely doubt it. A quick Google search tells me that they would have to change all the sky boxes to stop all the illegal card sharing that is going on.

Yup - maybe. So? Relatively minor capital investment (don't forget the majority of Sky customers got their original box for nothing or next to it in the first instance) saves an unreal amount in the long run. Anyway, there is a decent argument that a new card (maybe even the last card out) will stop the sharing over high(er) latency hops - pretty much ruling out any remote shares.

The activation of the Ethernet ports on the Sky boxes may be significant too (for example; generate a small hardware hash and send the packet back to Sky, periodically. Not a Sky box = card gets switched off. Over time more an more people will be connecting their box to an internet connection)

Anywho - whispers is all they are at the moment but, you'd have to believe that the revenue being lost is ridiculous and it seems eveyone is jumping in now making it more "mainstream". Mind you there are also some "other" things coming down the line too, you know, for the hobbiests

STB

azzeretti wrote: »

Anywho - whispers is all they are at the moment but, you'd have to believe that the revenue being lost is ridiculous and it seems eveyone is jumping in now making it more "mainstream". Mind you there are also some "other" things coming down the line too, you know, for the hobbiests

The type cam emulator may change, it will not kill it. Unless they start replacing all of the customers boxes nothing will happen.

Where I live 3 pubs all have the full suite of satellites and all are doing what we are talking about with TM boxes. Infact many think its legitimate.

azzeretti

STB wrote: »

The type cam emulator may change, it will not kill it. Unless they start replacing all of the customers boxes nothing will happen.

Lots of people seem to think this won't/can't happen. I think over time Sky could replace almost all the boxes with newer ones (the cost wouldn't be an issue as, like I said, most new Sky customers got their box either free or heavily subsidised, this wouldn't be an issues for Sky). There is a reasonable chance that the last revision of boxes are prepared for this.

Where I live 3 pubs all have the full suite of satellites and all are doing what we are talking about with TM boxes. Infact many think its legitimate.

I know - this is what will eventually kill it off. Users who don't know anything about the technology now don't need to. They can order a box on line and connect it to their internet connection and as long as they keep paying, the service remains.

I am pretty sure this won't happen overnight but, apart from cynically thinking more viewers equal more advertising revenue, it must be the highest priority for TV providers to combat this.

Also, there already exist ways to combat this - granted it will require some changes - but it's naive to think it won't happen someday.

IRC........

Oat23

Meh..Sky UK is useless anyways.

STB

azzeretti wrote: »

Lots of people seem to think this won't/can't happen. I think over time Sky could replace almost all the boxes with newer ones (the cost wouldn't be an issue as, like I said, most new Sky customers got their box either free or heavily subsidised, this wouldn't be an issues for Sky). There is a reasonable chance that the last revision of boxes are prepared for this..

Are you joking me! They need a card tied to a new box that cant move. Even then a complete recall of all boxes would be required. Leaving the technology aside for second (multiple streams are always going to be a huge issue!) the monetary costs in the UK that be massive.

Emulators where end game for NDS. CI+ mandatory implementation on every device is years off and even then.....

Anyhow my point is that it has become so prevalent that pubs think it is a legitimate system, many on the back of the Murphy case in the UK that ended up before the ECJ (which is completely nothing to do with what is being discussed), but no doubt sold as such by the very people offering these "services".

Anyway I'd rather not be banned for discussing something I don't condone nor use, so lets not get into detail.

azzeretti

STB wrote: »

Anyway I'd rather not be banned for discussing something I don't condone nor use, so lets not get into detail.

I agree. However.....

Are you joking me! They need a card tied to a new box that cant move.

Eh, no, they don't - they just need a box (and to authorise it) - there are implementations of this already in use for distribution services. If this logic has already been rolled into the latest revision of the boxes, then, over time, the switch would be less of a cost. However, I believe that, if Sky ran a cost analysis and discovered they were losing too much, it would be a fairly sensible business decision to replace EVERY box with this technology.

Otherwise, and I can see this daily in classifieds and hearing people talking, everyone is going to getting involved in this to the same extend we were in the Videocrypt days. I remember those days - it was madness. The Sunday newspapers were covered in adverts, openly selling "lick to change key" cards - it is almost more prevalent now, although the medium is different.

Even then a complete recall of all boxes would be required. Leaving the technology aside for second (multiple streams are always going to be a huge issue!) the monetary costs in the UK that be massive.

No different to what they forked out when Sky digital arrived and everyone got a free dish and decoder. Since then they have been subsidising boxes, heavily.

Of course, having said all of this - IP might be an even bigger problem for TV services in the future. Like i said, there is loads of things coming down the line.

recyclebin

The problem is that if sky did change all the boxes then people would just switch to internet streaming. Give it another couple of years and most people in urban areas will have a decent internet connection to watch in HD online. Paying for television is becoming like paying for music. Most people are saying why pay when you can get it for free online very easily.

azzeretti

recyclebin wrote: »

The problem is that if sky did change all the boxes then people would just switch to internet streaming. Give it another couple of years and most people in urban areas will have a decent internet connection to watch in HD online. Paying for television is becoming like paying for music. Most people are saying why pay when you can get it for free online very easily.

Yup - 'tis interesting times!

Wiggy

azzeretti wrote: »

Yup - maybe. So? Relatively minor capital investment (don't forget the majority of Sky customers got their original box for nothing or next to it in the first instance) saves an unreal amount in the long run.

Relatively minor!!!!!

Say 10 million subscribers @ £150 a pop = over €2 billion euro.

:eek:

azzeretti wrote: »

The activation of the Ethernet ports on the Sky boxes may be significant too (for example; generate a small hardware hash and send the packet back to Sky, periodically. Not a Sky box = card gets switched off. Over time more an more people will be connecting their box to an internet connection)

It's not part of the T&C to connect the Sky box to an ethernet port. I doubt it ever will be. So this is never going to be a solution to the problem under discussion.

Pal

So they bring out new boxes.
The hobbyists will just go back to using funcards.

Capt'n Midnight

As long as they are loosing less money than it takes to fix it isn't really a problem.

Even if they are loosing money then it's not a big problem if it increases their potential user base. How much new business did UPC get before they killed off the dodgy boxes ?

SKY don't need to bring out new boxes.
Even if new firmware and new cards don't work there is still the option of putting a CAM in the back of a digibox.

azzeretti

Wiggy wrote: »

Relatively minor!!!!!

Say 10 million subscribers @ £150 a pop = over €2 billion euro.

:eek:

Are you having a laugh! How much do you think Sky pay, cost price, for the boxes!!?? Nowhere near €150. Besides, they already paid the same amount luring customers in with the "free digibox and dish" offer. Most of these offers are still there for new customers - do you think that costs Sky €150 per box!!?? No chance.
Couple that with the eventual "end of life" of boxes and over a phased time the cost would be significantly less......

azzeretti

Pal wrote: »

So they bring out new boxes.
The hobbyists will just go back to using funcards.

Umm, as in breaking encryption? Good luck with that - there is no chance of that anymore - an if "they" do break it - NDS4 is waiting in the wings!

azzeretti

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

As long as they are loosing less money than it takes to fix it isn't really a problem.

Even if they are loosing money then it's not a big problem if it increases their potential user base. How much new business did UPC get before they killed off the dodgy boxes ?

SKY don't need to bring out new boxes.
Even if new firmware and new cards don't work there is still the option of putting a CAM in the back of a digibox.

This is my point exactly - there will come a time when they just lose too much money and the cost of lost revenue will be more that the cost of battling the problem.

Also, adding a CAM won't help if they stop using cards!

It's all speculation at the moment, but I think we'd have to be really naive to think this isn't being watched really, really closely. Look what happened in Italy back circ. 2009. Granted, it only lasted a week or so but it shows they're silly testing.

I agree the only way to combat it is make HUGE changes but eventually this will happen.

Wiggy

azzeretti wrote: »

Are you having a laugh! How much do you think Sky pay, cost price for the boxes!!?? Nowhere near €150...

Not having a laugh, attempting to be realistic. How much do you think it would cost per box to administer and supply the delivery of 10 million boxes across the UK and Ireland? The cost of the hardware would probably account for half the total cost of the exercise.

azzeretti

Wiggy wrote: »

Not having a laugh, attempting to be realistic. How much do you think it would cost per box to administer and supply the delivery of 10 million boxes across the UK and Ireland? The cost of the hardware would probably account for half the total cost of the exercise.

It wouldn't happen in one go - it wouldn't cost anything in administration, more than already replacing a box does. Phasing the replacement over a medium timeframe, coupled with "end of life" products and it wouldn't be long before everyone is covered.

So, you think Sky lost €2 billion in signing up all their customers in the first instance? Don't forgot a lot - if not all - of Sky's customers got free boxes and/or heavily subsidised boxes in the first instance. Do you think they took the hit for that then? No, the didn't! Don't forget the analogue to digital changeover they footed the bill for too!

azzeretti

Hey - I hope I'm not coming across aggressively here - The truth is noone knows what is going to happen in the long run. There is a lot of talk lately in the IRCs about things happening. I am just interested in how they could combat what is going one.

I couldn't really care either way - I will still be involved with satellite and coding, being the geek that I am!

Capt'n Midnight

azzeretti wrote: »

Also, adding a CAM won't help if they stop using cards!

I mentioned the CAM slot to show that SKY can add new hardware functionality without having to change the boxes.

It's probably not a standard CI interface so it may not be possible to use the CAM in non SKY receiver,

I think it's very unlikely they would ever do this, but the slot is there, arm/gpu can provide plenty of processing power. It's a plan B if someone reverse engineers the SKY boxes.

As for costs ..
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/01/bskyb_q1/

the company had plenty to be pleased about this morning when it reported that revenue had climbed 4 per cent to £1.7bn during the quarter, while pre-tax profit hit £291m - up from £274m for the same period in 2011.
...
The company's average revenue per user (ARPU) once again climbed from £535 in 2011's first quarter to £550. Its total customer base now stands at 10.7 million.