Gaeilge

mick kk

Hi have 2 questions
1. Does anyone on here do the JC oral Irish exam. If so, could you give me some details about how it works e.g. when the orals take place, how are they graded, the paperwork involved, issues surrounding evaluating your own students, opinions of other staff regarding violating a union directive etc.

2. Theres an open day coming up...anyone any ideas about how to promote the subject?

Thanks

ejak1

Regarding Junior cert oral.
Most schools diregard the Junior cert oral, only around 10 percent of all schools in the country are doing the oral. This percentage is rising year by year as many VEC schools are now examining students by using retired teachers etc to assess. I dont think that the TUI have a directive against the orals, just that teachers should be paid if they do assess, but I'm not sure of that.
Most ASTI schools are obeying the directive not to assess our own students. BTW, Junior cert orals are available to all languages including Irish. However, the marks awarded are far greater for Irish.

As a school, we decided not to carry out the orals in any language. It is an ASTI staff. Our rationale was that the other Junior cert subjects in our school had external examiners, eg Home Econonomics, Music, Art. If these subjects have external examiners, paid by the SEC, why should languages be treated any differently? We have serious reservations about assessing our own students as many staff members have children, reltations and neighbours in the school. It would be awkward if these students were given a result by their parents. Yes, you could say that teachers could swap around, but in some cases the parent is the only teacher of that subject in the school.

Regarding open night, why not get students to give digital presentations in Irish, e.g. photostory, describing their school and their activities for seachtain na Gaeilge etc. Or any other topic for that matter.

beir bua

mick kk

Thanks for your reply

I looked at the circular and the school can employ somebody not connected with the school to do the assessment. So the students can do an oral if they wish to and an independant person assesses their skills. The person doesn't have to be a retired teacher - it can be somebody hired in for the day that nobody knows.
This solves the problem of the ASTI directive telling us not to assess our own students.

Powerhouse

mick kk wrote: »

Thanks for your reply

I looked at the circular and the school can employ somebody not connected with the school to do the assessment.

So the students can do an oral if they wish to and an independant person assesses their skills. The person doesn't have to be a retired teacher - it can be somebody hired in for the day that nobody knows.
This solves the problem of the ASTI directive telling us not to assess our own students.

That's what my school is doing. As it happens it seems that teachers will be assessing their own students in every subject at JC level in a few years anyway. So it looks like that union directive has been overtaken by events already.

Leaving aside questions of assessment, it is disappointing if only 10 per cent of schools are doing a JC oral when 100 per cent have to do the LC oral in Irish. Doing the JC oral seems an obvious carrot for students and teachers to promote spoken Irish from day one.

mick kk

The reason I am thinking about it is because a lot of our students seem to get Cs -even really good ones. We seem to get very few As and Bs in our school. I am wondering if the As and Bs are going to the students who are doing the oral Irish. From my research it seems that between 7, 000 and 8, 000 students are doing it. Going to give it a go. Even if one student does it this year it will be a good start. I think its much more relevant than writing postcards and listening to an 80 year old man on the tape talkiing about The Simpsons.

Seanchai

Very informative thread. If a teacher opts to do a JC Oral exam, worth 40% of the JC, what parts of the course constitute the remaining 60%? (alternatively, what's dropped?)

ejak1

I don't think that the ASTI policy has changed regarding assessing our own students or even by employing somebody outside the school. This is outlined in the circular
http://www.asti.ie/publications/articles/publication-article/junior-cert-gaeilge-orals//publication-back-to/school-stewards/
This circular was issued in 2011 and a reminder letter was sent to schools in 2012 that it was still in place.


The ASTI union states that even ad hoc arrangements are not permissible (i.e. you cannot employ somebody outside the school even for assessment purposes, unless they are employed by the State examinations committee. The ASTI policy is that assessing languages should be done the same way as for Leaving Cert.
Just wondering what circular you are reading Mick KK? Is it the TUI one I wonder? Or is it an internal school document?
Can't find anything about this on ASTI website. I can't imagine ASTI have changed policy without informing us.

''The current arrangements for oral and aural examinations in modern languages at Leaving Cert level include a robust national standards system, similar to that of written exams. No such arrangements exist in relation to optional oral and aural exams in Irish at Junior Cert level. For that reason, the ASTI is directing its members not to engage in ad-hoc arrangements for Junior Cert orals in Gaeilge. ''

Powerhouse

Seanchai wrote: »

Very informative thread. If a teacher opts to do a JC Oral exam, worth 40% of the JC, what parts of the course constitute the remaining 60%? (alternatively, what's dropped?)

The remainder of the course does not change in make-up. Everything else is still done. The only difference is that the relative value of all other aspects of the course is reduced.

For example, the current JC Honours papers 1 & 2 are worth 150 and 90 marks respectively. They will still retain that number of marks. However, the Oral Irish component will be worth 160 marks which will be added on - in other words those doing the Oral Irish will be marked from 400 marks rather than 240.

This has the practical effect of reducing, say, the value of the listening component in the exam from one-sixth of the marks to one-tenth. Similarly, the poetry on the Honours paper (30 marks) was previous worth 12.5 per cent of the overall mark, but would be reduced to 7.5 per cent for anyone taking the Oral component. And so on.

On the basis that Oral marks tend to be picked up easier than written marks it's probably a good thing for the majority of students. For those who will determinedly not speak it trouble beckons though. For example in the Pass paper currently the reading comprehension element overall comes to 50 per cent, but for anyone doing the Oral it will reduce in value to 30 per cent. This assumes, of course, that it is marked without fear or favour!

In reality the means by which it is done is has made a mockery of the notion of a uniform incorruptible state examination as a teacher can make up their own marking scheme, so students across the country doing the Oral Irish are not being marked in the same way, at least not necessarily anyway - the SEC suggested marking scheme can be used too.

But in one school you could have the class teacher marking them (and human nature suggests they would not be averse to being less than brutal towards their own students in marking), in another you could have an outsider (with no brief for any teacher or student), while in another school you will have no Oral Irish exam at all. It's like there is a variety of different exams are being sat. Then again, as I have mentioned before, I suppose it does foreshadow the future for all JC subjects in that sense.

spurious

From having been an SEC monitor checking in-house marking, it is more usual that the class teacher overmarks their own students, but it is still a most unsatisfactory prospect that work will be marked in-school without any external checking.

ejak1

I agree with Spurious completely. I don't think that teachers should be expected to examine students and submit results that have not been externally moderated by the SEC.

External Moderation takes place in the JCert in other subjects so why should Irish and other language subjects be different? Is this fair on the teachers or students that some subjects are deemed more important of SEC moderation than others? This is what my collegues and I feel anyway.

I know that we won't be examining any of our own students until our subjects have SEC moderation in place for all aspects of the exam. Yes, this may happen in the New Junior Cert... I know that the ASTI is not happy with assessment arrangements and is pushing for external moderation for all subjects.

Seanchai

Powerhouse wrote: »

The remainder of the course does not change in make-up. Everything else is still done. The only difference is that the relative value of all other aspects of the course is reduced.

For example, the current JC Honours papers 1 & 2 are worth 150 and 90 marks respectively. They will still retain that number of marks. However, the Oral Irish component will be worth 160 marks which will be added on - in other words those doing the Oral Irish will be marked from 400 marks rather than 240.

This has the practical effect of reducing, say, the value of the listening component in the exam from one-sixth of the marks to one-tenth. Similarly, the poetry on the Honours paper (30 marks) was previous worth 12.5 per cent of the overall mark, but would be reduced to 7.5 per cent for anyone taking the Oral component. And so on.

On the basis that Oral marks tend to be picked up easier than written marks it's probably a good thing for the majority of students. For those who will determinedly not speak it trouble beckons though. For example in the Pass paper currently the reading comprehension element overall comes to 50 per cent, but for anyone doing the Oral it will reduce in value to 30 per cent. This assumes, of course, that it is marked without fear or favour!

In reality the means by which it is done is has made a mockery of the notion of a uniform incorruptible state examination as a teacher can make up their own marking scheme, so students across the country doing the Oral Irish are not being marked in the same way, at least not necessarily anyway - the SEC suggested marking scheme can be used too.

But in one school you could have the class teacher marking them (and human nature suggests they would not be averse to being less than brutal towards their own students in marking), in another you could have an outsider (with no brief for any teacher or student), while in another school you will have no Oral Irish exam at all. It's like there is a variety of different exams are being sat. Then again, as I have mentioned before, I suppose it does foreshadow the future for all JC subjects in that sense.

Succinct and very helpful summary of the situation. Sincere thanks.

Whars happening?

Is there a translation as Gaeilge for the above saying or something equivalent?

Meangadh

I did them one year, tried to be very fair in how I marked the students but I felt overall it didn't help their grades so I wouldn't be bothered doing it again.

Also I know that some teachers in the school weren't too happy with me and the other Irish teachers doing them because of the stance that the ASTI take towards the teachers examining their students- so for that reason I would stay away from them again.

As stated already, it's a far from ideal situation for teachers to be examining their own students- so until the new Junior Cert comes in, I won't be examining my own students again until I have to. I'm glad I did it just to see what it'd be like, but it just didn't seem to pay off.

And as regards the Department, they never checked any of the tapes, no one ever came to see were they being carried out properly or anything. Just an overall negative experience here I suppose!

Seanchai

Is this a mistake by Gaelscéal, or do people know in advance what the Cluastuiscint for the 2013 Aural Irish in the Leaving Certificate will be?

Gaelscéal ar scoil: Cluastuiscint don Ardteist 2013

Meangadh

That has to be just a sample, surely?