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Easter Rising and Bolands Mill

  • 19-10-2012 1:54pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭


    Hi all,

    Someone posted a link in another thread to the Bolands Mill Wikipedia page. This page says the following:-
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    220px-Boland%27s_Flourmills_Dublin_Ireland.jpg magnify-clip.png
    Boland's Mill


    Boland's Mill is located on the Grand Canal Dock in Dublin, Ireland at the corner of Pearse Street and Barrow St. The majority of the complex consists of concrete silos built between the 1940s and 1960s. The mill stopped production in 2001 and the site is now derelict. Within the complex of buildings, the older stone block buildings facing onto Ringsend Road and onto Grand Canal Dock together with two terraced houses on Barrow street are listed as protected buildings by Dublin City Council. The taller concrete silos on the site are not protected structures. [1] The site has planning permission for an office, residential and retail/hotel redevelopment granted by the Dublin Docklands Development Authority (under Section 25 of the Dublin Docklands Development Authority Act, 1997).[2]
    This site should not be confused with the old Bolands Biscuit Mills building on the corner of Grand Canal Street and Macken Street now known as the Treasury Building (approximately 500 metres away) that played an integral part of the 1916 Rising and was occupied by Éamon de Valera who would later be President of Ireland, a fact commemorated by a plaque on the wall of the building along Macken Street. Following its closure it was substantially redeveloped as an office building in the late 1980s by Treasury Holdings. The Treasury Building's occupants currently include the National Treasury Management Agency and the National Asset Management Agency (NAMA).
    I'm interested in the part in bold. I was always led to believe that it was the Flour Mill that was occupied by the rebel forces during the Rising. I've done a quick google and the only thing I could find was this which says
    The 3rd Battalion under Commandant Eamon de Valera occupied Boland’s bakery around the corner from the flour mills, one mile to the south-east of the GPO, on Grand Canal Dock
    Can anyone confirm exactly where they occupied and link me to some more details?

    Thanks for any help.


Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Clanket


    Actually someone just posted it in another thread. They were headquartered in Bolands Bakery which was on the site where the Treasury Building is now. Here's the docs for anyone that's interested.

    http://www.nli.ie/1916/pdf/7.10.pdf


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 134 ✭✭Rodgeb


    There is a piece on the statue climbing up the wall of the Treasury Building in today's Indo which confirms this: http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/statue-got-sex-change-as-exbillionaire-ronan-didnt-want-naked-man-on-treasury-building-3308445.html


    The building itself was built in 1995 on the site of Boland's Mills – a key location during the 1916 Rising.

    It was used by Fianna Fail as a headquarters for the party's general election campaign in 2007 and now houses NAMA. The company wanted the sculpture, titled Aspiration, to commemorate the country's struggle for freedom.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭gobnaitolunacy


    When was it demolished?


  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 2,159 Mod ✭✭✭✭Oink


    Well I'll be... I always thought it was that same building - Boland's Mill, instead of the Biscuit Mill.
    I learnt something today :-) .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Clanket


    Oink wrote: »
    Well I'll be... I always thought it was that same building - Boland's Mill, instead of the Biscuit Mill.
    I learnt something today :-) .

    I was the same when I originally posted.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    I've a very quick question: when the Helga came down the Liffey, how far down did it go and was it small enough to go under bridges like the Matt Talbot Bridge?

    Because it apparently managed to bomb the GPO from O'Connell Bridge, I got the impression it was quite large.

    Interestingly, the Helga was renamed the Muirchú by the new Irish state.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    I've a very quick question: when the Helga came down the Liffey, how far down did it go and was it small enough to go under bridges like the Matt Talbot Bridge?

    Because it apparently managed to bomb the GPO from O'Connell Bridge, I got the impression it was quite large.

    Interestingly, the Helga was renamed the Muirchú by the new Irish state.

    The Matt Talbot Bridge wasn't there in 1926.

    Helga fired from the area of Custom House Quay and Sir John Rogerson Quay.

    They withdrew down river to Britain Quay because their gunnery was pretty crap and some of their longer shots were dropping in the Phoenix Park..

    From Britain Quay they also targeted and fired at Boland's Mills. Again some of their shots went long and the Forresters trying to force Mount Street Bridge returned fire thinking they were being engaged by rebel artillery. They resultant artillery duel saw about 12 shots exchanged before they realised what was happening.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Btw- I think it's questionable that she shelled the GPO. The GPO came under artillery bombardment but to hit it from the river unless you were shooting from O'Connell St Bridge would have required a howitzer or mortar.

    The Helga main armament was a 12-pounder and it's questionable they could have got sufficient elevation to get the plunging fire they'd have needed to strike the GPO.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    armed with a 12 pounder on a Low Angle pedestal mount, an inexperienced gun crew and no real communications in place for indirect fire control.

    Not a chance that the Helga fired on the GPO.

    The Phoenix Park/Vice Regal Lodge shell is a bit of a myth. An Irish Royal Artillery officer pinned that shell firmly with the gunners from Athlone and an incompetent officer in charge of the gun.

    "The Sea Hound" By Daire Brunicardi is well worth a read for the career of the Helga.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    OK, so if the Helga never actually bombed the GPO or O'Connell Street, what places did it bomb? Is the critical role in the Rising which it's often given justified? How important was it really?

    If the nearest to O'Connell Street that it fired from was the Customs' House and John Rogerson's Quay, what was its maximum range?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    I always understood that the Helga shelled Liberty Hall. She was not armed with howitzers, so from her single canon she was only able to fire in horizontal & straight lines. She also rescued many from the torpedoed Leinster a couple of years later.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    this video won't answer your question re max range yet but worth a look for the different approach to angles of fire, direct/indirect fire, type of ammunition, forward observers/communications etc for artillery/guns set for line of sight firing (ie the 18pounders used by the Royal Artillery and the 12pounder on the Helga in Dublin) versus artillery firing over obstacles

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Di5svup9BkY


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    armed with a 12 pounder on a Low Angle pedestal mount, an inexperienced gun crew and no real communications in place for indirect fire control.

    Not a chance that the Helga fired on the GPO.

    The Phoenix Park/Vice Regal Lodge shell is a bit of a myth. An Irish Royal Artillery officer pinned that shell firmly with the gunners from Athlone and an incompetent officer in charge of the gun.

    "The Sea Hound" By Daire Brunicardi is well worth a read for the career of the Helga.

    On the off chance anyone is interested, I found this article while clearing out some files on the computer last night.....

    The Helga / Muirchu - Her Contribution to Galway Maritime History

    I have it in PDF and it's 4MB - if anyone wants a copy and can't access it off JSTOR PM me an email address and I'll send it on.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    there are a few resources on JSTOR I'd like to get copies of but it seems a bit of a roadblock at times.

    The Helga's role in the Rising seems to be generally overrated whereas it's role (and the original Helga before her) as a research and fishery protection vessel gets limited recognition.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 510 ✭✭✭Balaclava1991


    The Helga was a small fishery research and protection cruiser with two 12 pounder (76mm bore) artillery guns.

    muirchu.jpg

    From its mooring opposite the Custom House it shelled Liberty Hall point blank - the building was empty - its first shot hitting the metal railway bridge over the Liffey which created a clang that was heard across the city and its fire was joined by machine gun fire from the British Army which set up positions across the River Liffey and joined later by an artillery gun positioned at Tara Street.

    places_libertyhall.png

    When the British troops marching from Kingstown ran right into a rebel ambush at the canal bridge on Northumberland Road, a British officer had one of the 12 pounder guns detached from the Helga and was going to use it to shell the rebel strongpoint in Clanwilliam House from the direction of Percy Place while a machine gun in the nearby church tower gave covering fire. Before he got it ready the rebel position was cleared and Boland's Mill further up to the canal became the target.
    De Valera told his men to set up a tricolor flag on another building to draw fire away from his battalion's position.
    The British officer directed fire at the second building but the shells over shot and landed in the Liffey near the Helga.
    The commander of the Helga believed the rebels had artillery guns and fired back at the British gun on Percy Place.

    The real bombardment to the center of Dublin city was from British Army artillery guns set up inside the grounds of Trinity College which was defended by students armed with rifles who occupied the rooftops and traded fire with rebels across the river and eventually as the British pushed into the O'Connell Street area from multiple directions another unit of the British artillery guns were also firing from the direction of the Grangegorman lunatic hospital.

    A heavy gun was set up on D'Olier Street to blast the rebel strong points over looking O'Connell Bridge. The area from O'Connell Bridge as far as Nelson's Pillar and the GPO was gutted or reduced to rubble by the infernos that resulted.
    A machine gunners and snipers made it impossible to cross O'Connell Street while British troops also had Abbey and Henry Street covered.
    The only route the survivors of the defenders of the GPO could go was into buildings on Moore Street where they were eventually cornered.

    Some of the fires which destroyed the O'Connell area were also set by mobs of looters and the blazes spread through department stores and consumed their contents.

    Se%C3%A1%C2%A1n-McLoughlin-the-boy-commandant-of-1916-5.jpg

    De Valera's men were kept bottled up in Boland's Mill not doing very much the same as Sean McDonagh's men in Jacob's Biscuit Factory to the south.

    Only a handful of men held up the British at Northumberland Road and Mount Street Bridge where hundreds were killed or wounded.
    For some bizarre reason the British insisted on repeatedly charging Clanwilliam House even though they could have gone down the canal and crossed at the next bridge where there was no hold up.

    6953046995_7216ec9cfe_z.jpg

    If more of the rebels had been deployed in dispersed strong points along the canal bridges and more Irish Volunteers had actually come out to fight the British would have found it very difficult indeed to penetrate the city center like they did.

    The rebel strategy was to just occupy buildings and hold at as long as possible.

    Heroic and melodramatic but ultimately futile.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    The Helga was a small fishery research and protection cruiser with two 12 pounder (76mm bore) artillery guns.

    Do you have a date for the installation of the 2nd 12pounder? My gut feeling is that the second gun was a later install as submarine warfare became more of an issue but I don't have any data for this yet.

    "Liffey Ships and ShipBuilding" has the Helga requisitioned by the Royal Navy in March 1915 and the 3pounder gun installed in 1908 being replaced by a 12pounder.

    The log book of the Helga has 2 rounds fired on the 25th April, 24 rounds fired at Liberty Hall on the Wednesday and then 14 rounds fired at the Dublin Distillery on the Thursday and always refers to gun in the singular. There's nothing in the log about a gun being taken off.

    There is a reference in the book to a 6pounder from the armed trawler Persian Empire being removed and placed on a horse drawn lorry, operated by Naval gunners from HMS Adventure. The Adventure certainly had the manpower available and potentially better trained/more experienced gunners.

    Max Caulfield describes a 1pounder being taken off Helga (but he also describes the Royal Artillery guns as 9pounders rather than 18pounders) and being towed through the streets by Blue Jackets to Percy Place.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    @Balaclava1991 - thanks for that map image. I found a very badly damaged (decayed and in pieces), of a map that looks the same but was missing the text at the top. Thought it might have been issued by an Insurance Co...

    I 'traced' and joined the map fragments and put a copy online in Google format in case anyone's interested : Dublin 1916 Damage


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 510 ✭✭✭Balaclava1991


    Do you have a date for the installation of the 2nd 12pounder? My gut feeling is that the second gun was a later install as submarine warfare became more of an issue but I don't have any data for this yet.

    "Liffey Ships and ShipBuilding" has the Helga requisitioned by the Royal Navy in March 1915 and the 3pounder gun installed in 1908 being replaced by a 12pounder.

    The log book of the Helga has 2 rounds fired on the 25th April, 24 rounds fired at Liberty Hall on the Wednesday and then 14 rounds fired at the Dublin Distillery on the Thursday and always refers to gun in the singular. There's nothing in the log about a gun being taken off.

    There is a reference in the book to a 6pounder from the armed trawler Persian Empire being removed and placed on a horse drawn lorry, operated by Naval gunners from HMS Adventure. The Adventure certainly had the manpower available and potentially better trained/more experienced gunners.

    Max Caulfield describes a 1pounder being taken off Helga (but he also describes the Royal Artillery guns as 9pounders rather than 18pounders) and being towed through the streets by Blue Jackets to Percy Place.

    I stand corrected.:)

    I just did a search and found some republican themed website that told my first version.

    It must be in error.

    Thanks for the more accurate detail.

    It really is an amazing story and people walk past these spots in the city not aware of the great drama that unfolded almost 100 years ago. :eek:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    not sure your info is wrong. There just seems to be various sources with conflicting snippets of information.

    There are a number of websites out there that are definitely wrong on some aspects of the Easter Rising though :

    the gallery of this website has members of the Irish Citizen Army labelled as British soldiers and has War of Independence images (ie British soldiers wearing helmets) as Easter Rising images
    http://www.easter1916.ie/index.php/gallery/

    the Easter Rising Coach tour website has a TV style news clip announcing the Proclamation of the Republic on Easter Monday 25th April 1916
    http://www.1916easterrisingcoachtour.ie/easter-rising-television.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    the following article re the Helga is by Lar Joye at the National Museum

    http://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/tss-helga-ii/

    It is the only reference I've seen to a 3pounder "pom pom" gun being installed on the Helga.

    Lar Joye is one of a number of archivists that recently helped with a project re Cadet G F MacKay, held prisoner at Boland's Mill during the Rising.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 510 ✭✭✭Balaclava1991


    the following article re the Helga is by Lar Joye at the National Museum

    http://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/tss-helga-ii/

    It is the only reference I've seen to a 3pounder "pom pom" gun being installed on the Helga.

    Lar Joye is one of a number of archivists that recently helped with a project re Cadet G F MacKay, held prisoner at Boland's Mill during the Rising.

    Most schoolkids are given the impression the Helga was a giant dreadnought firing broadsides into the tenements.

    It was a bathtub armed with a pea shooter.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,363 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    This minesweeper shelled Galway during the rising there.

    http://www.clydesite.co.uk/clydebuilt/viewship.asp?id=5009

    this cruiser also arrived in Galway bay during the rising to back up the authorities. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Gloucester_%281909%29


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,275 ✭✭✭bobbyss


    Did O'Connell's statue get damaged during the Rising? I think I see photos of him still standing proud.

    Very interesting stuff about the Helga. I had thought about those bridges too and it not being able to go up the river as far as possible and how if the Helga were to bomb O'Connell Street then it must have been capable of sending in lobs with great precision. It was always my impression it was a huge ship think that brought death a destruction to the streets of Dublin. This dark impression also underlined for me by an old Swedish film called (I think but could be wrong) Helga about a young girl giving birth which was a shocking film when it was first released as nothing like that had ever been shown before. I have always associated the ship with this film in terms of shock and awe.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    The poor "Helga" was far removed from being a battleship as you can see from this postcard of her in use with the Irish Naval Service renamed "Muirchu". The ship was ultimately sold to Hammond Lane for scrap but sank off the south coast (nr.Saltee Islands) on the 8th May, 1947 on her way to Dublin for breaking.

    Helga%2Bpassing%2BConningbeg%2Blightship%2Bpostcard%2B-%2BCopy.jpg


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