Unemployed pilot-any advice?

silverbullet75

I have a current frozen ATPL, fly regularly and after 5 years still can't find a pilot job.
I am not too choosy as I love to fly & would love an opportunity. In the past, I have looked into Ryanair (and similar schemes) but had to forget about it as I couldn't raise the necessary funding. Also, I have tried networking, offering my services to private operators, registered with agencies but to no avail.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanx

Xpro

What about going abroad or maybe get an instructors rating? Money is not great but atleast it will keep you current and stay in the loop

bluecode

Becoming an Instructor is the obvious solution you might think but even then there are few jobs, unpaid ones. But it does help with the networking.

There are no easy answers. I was there myself. The only thing you can do is keep plugging away. If you talk to pilots who made the transition you will often find they were lucky by being in the right place at the right time. But it's not just luck, if you want to catch an apple falling from a tree you need to be near the tree all the time. In other words you need to in the right place a lot waiting for the right time.

You say you can't raise the money. Maybe you really need to look at that and find a way. Easy to say of course. Harder to do.

Also you may need to look at yourself. How do you come across? Are you selling yourself properly. In my situation I come across pilots like you all the time. Some you know immediately have what it takes. Others quite the opposite. It's hard to define but particularly for smaller operations. It's a case of the face fitting.

On the networking issue. You have to network intelligently. Perhaps the best way is to get an aviation job, even a bad one. Which gives you access to the right people and makes sure you under the apple tree, to continue my analogy.

I don't know if you've seen the series 'Ice Pilots' where wannabee pilots work as 'rampies' for up to six months. Terrible hours, terrible pay and conditions, weather and work wise. All in the hope of getting into the right seat of one of Buffalo Airways aircraft. Essentially that is an extended interview tested a person's character to see if they fit in with ethos of the company. There are pilots working in every level of aviation hoping for a foot in the door. If you already work in aviation and it isn't helping, move on. Take another job even if the pay is worse. If you're working outside of aviation consider finding an aviation related job even if it means less money.

Place yourself in situations where there are working pilots.

If you won't do that, then your motivation is suspect. I have met many newly qualified pilots who tell you they'll do anything to get a pilot job. But doing something menial to aid that goal isn't included.

After five years you need to look at what you're doing wrong. Maybe a visit to a recruitment specialist particularly one with an aviation connection might help. Mock interviews are good. I did a session years ago with some other pilots at an agency. Essentially they queried my suitability for the job and suggested a career in the media. They were dead right but I became a pilot anyway! But it was helpful.

Good luck, but make sure you make it yourself.

JJLongford

How were your atpl results? PM them to me if you don't want to disclose them here. Don't quote average because the comms, hpl and possibly law and ops will artificially inflate that. Some companies (and indeed Oxford, for their modular step way) will only accept 85% or more in all subjects...

Did you pass everything first time around?

What's your experience otherwise?

Employers will be looking and the whole picture and finding the holes.

LeftBase

JJLongford wrote: »

How were your atpl results? PM them to me if you don't want to disclose them here. Don't quote average because the comms, hpl and possibly law and ops will artificially inflate that. Some companies (and indeed Oxford, for their modular step way) will only accept 85% or more in all subjects...

Did you pass everything first time around?

What's your experience otherwise?

Employers will be looking and the whole picture and finding the holes.

I was told it was more important to pass all 1st time rather than the exact result. When I was at interview I was asked the average (89%) and then asked how many were below 80%(only GNav:mad:). They seemed happy with that, moved on and I was taken on.

The main bar to employment for people I talk to is the TR costs(mostly FR). I may be getting fed a line on this, but it seems if you cough 30k up Ryanair will find a place for you!:rolleyes:

Stovepipe

Hi there
How far are you prepared to travel? What other work in aviation would you be prepared to do to get your toe in? Have you tried the third-level operators in the UK, even the gliding and parachuting clubs? Air Atlantique used to have scheme for newbies just like Buffalo Airways...Have you the funds to do an instructor's course? From what friends have done, they started off doing voucher flights during slow weekdays for clubs and schools and got more hours as time went on, doing ferry flights for maintenance, air tests for C of As and so on. There are options out there, provided you are prepared to spend a lot of time at airfields.

regards
Stovepipe

bluecode

Exactly:

provided you are prepared to spend a lot of time at airfields.

An awful lot of time at airfields, not flying either. Making tea, fuelling aircraft, sweeping. A lot of new pilots think that's beneath their dignity and just turn up and hang around like a ghost. But people don't believe in ghosts generally and will soon see right through you.

Stovepipe

hi there
If you are prepared to get your hands dirty, you will find that pilot owners will bring you flying or give you access to aircraft. If you know anyone with a light aircraft, they will bring you up in exchange for washing, cleaning, general handling and so on (if they are any good, that is). It's a bit "will work for flight time" but it does generate free hours and keeps you current. Also, consider becoming an instructor on microlights as well. This does not generate loggable flight hours towards keeping a CPL current but it does keep you active, opens doors and is fun and cheap.

regards
Stovepipe

smurfjed

How much experience do you have, and ratings if any?

smurfjed

Lustrum

I'm going to hop on this thread and try to answer some of the questions already asked.....no doubt there are hundreds more like me in Ireland and the UK.

I'm not quite as long qualified as the OP, but have a CPL, MEIR, 202hrs, first time passes in all flight tests, 98% ATPL average with all first time passes. I've moved countries to take a job that is at least involved in the industry and pays me £6.60 an hour. My wife is still in Dublin, and I get home about once every 6 weeks or so.

I have been to every skydiving club, gliding club, air ambulance company etc in southern England to talk to people. I've driven 5 hours (one way) one evening to do an hour in the sim with a 757 pilot who was renewing his 737 rating, I felt it was an opportunity not to be missed and it may have lead to something else - unfortunately it didn't but at least I tried.

I follow up every single contact that I can get my hands on, and have spoken to guys in Jet2, Titan, Ryanair, AL, Ethiad, GSS, BA to name a few, and numerous corporate pilots. In fairness to them, they're all willing to give me advice and have a chat, but the conversation generally starts with them reminding me that unfortunately they can't help get me an interview with their company.

Instructing is an option, however it's another 8 grand or so then you're starting at the very bottom. Also, I'm willing to wait out another while to see if I can get a break onto the flight deck because after all, very few people do their training because they want to become instructors.

No doubt I could be doing more, but what to do next is tricky. I have no doubt that everyone gets their job on merit, but merit isn't going to get me an interview, hence the constant harassing of pilots!

I knew what I was getting into when I started my training, however I'm not sure anyone could have predicted there was going to be this much of a downturn in hiring of newbies. Of all the guys that were training with me and ahead of me, probably over 90% of them aren't flying now, and I'm lucky in that I'm at least involved in aviation.

This isn't a sob story, just the reality of what it's like at the moment when you're 800hrs short of just about every job advertised. Fingers crossed it will change someday, and as I keep telling the wife, in 10 years time we'll be looking back and laughing about this - hopefully a positive attitude will help aswell.

Finally, if any of you guys know of anyone who might be interesting in seeing my CV, please get in touch and I'll probably start harassing you too - it's only a matter of time before the restraining orders start coming in!

Safe flying!

omega man

Lustrum wrote: »

I'm going to hop on this thread and try to answer some of the questions already asked.....no doubt there are hundreds more like me in Ireland and the UK.

I'm not quite as long qualified as the OP, but have a CPL, MEIR, 202hrs, first time passes in all flight tests, 98% ATPL average with all first time passes. I've moved countries to take a job that is at least involved in the industry and pays me £6.60 an hour. My wife is still in Dublin, and I get home about once every 6 weeks or so.

I have been to every skydiving club, gliding club, air ambulance company etc in southern England to talk to people. I've driven 5 hours (one way) one evening to do an hour in the sim with a 757 pilot who was renewing his 737 rating, I felt it was an opportunity not to be missed and it may have lead to something else - unfortunately it didn't but at least I tried.

I follow up every single contact that I can get my hands on, and have spoken to guys in Jet2, Titan, Ryanair, AL, Ethiad, GSS, BA to name a few, and numerous corporate pilots. In fairness to them, they're all willing to give me advice and have a chat, but the conversation generally starts with them reminding me that unfortunately they can't help get me an interview with their company.

Instructing is an option, however it's another 8 grand or so then you're starting at the very bottom. Also, I'm willing to wait out another while to see if I can get a break onto the flight deck because after all, very few people do their training because they want to become instructors.

No doubt I could be doing more, but what to do next is tricky. I have no doubt that everyone gets their job on merit, but merit isn't going to get me an interview, hence the constant harassing of pilots!

I knew what I was getting into when I started my training, however I'm not sure anyone could have predicted there was going to be this much of a downturn in hiring of newbies. Of all the guys that were training with me and ahead of me, probably over 90% of them aren't flying now, and I'm lucky in that I'm at least involved in aviation.

This isn't a sob story, just the reality of what it's like at the moment when you're 800hrs short of just about every job advertised. Fingers crossed it will change someday, and as I keep telling the wife, in 10 years time we'll be looking back and laughing about this - hopefully a positive attitude will help aswell.

Finally, if any of you guys know of anyone who might be interesting in seeing my CV, please get in touch and I'll probably start harassing you too - it's only a matter of time before the restraining orders start coming in!

Safe flying!

Really admire your ambition and I'm certain you'll get there in the end, I've no doubt about that. Its refreshing to see such a great attitude and I do appreciate its tough for you right now but by god it'll be worth it when it all comes together. It's funny as I work in flight ops (not a pilot) and have access to a FFS which is fantastic but I've no interest in flying as a career, although I probably wouldn't make the grade I work with pilots of course so have a great appreciation for how they got to where they are and what it takes to stay on top of their game but many have lost that passion you have, that's human nature I guess. Best of luck, genuinely.

bluecode

Lustrum PM me. No promises. Can't even pretend there's a job. Even if it transpired. You will not be happy with what I suggest.

In truth I would hope you have already met me. You might not fit in and if you do you will certainly regret it.

It won't be this year either and it's not jets.

silverbullet75

Thanks to everyone here for posting.

I too have a UK CPL (& FAA licence), MCC, MEIR, 440hrs, first time passes in all flight tests, 83% ATPL average. All this was done while working full time in flight operations & entirely pay as I went along self funded.

The job search has included:Gliding clubs, Parachuting clubs,Banner towing, air ambulance companies, Far East, Africa, Middle East. I've been networking like crazy & just like Lustrum have built up a wealth of contacts willing to offer advice. Numerous pilots have handed in my c.v but to no avail. I have targeted the relevant hiring managers sending applications in. Also, I keep asking my current airline if I can be interviewed, however I am very valuable in my current position & my management have hindered me every step of the way, so this may not be an option.

I keep current and fly every month, even though it's costly. I use groupons & an FNPT2 also.

I have a spread sheet with my updated records of who I've applied to and follow up regularly. I keep up regular contact on linkedin and keep knocking on doors. Also, I have invested in some interview coaching. Interviews are hard to get & as I have no type rating, I don't get considered. It's a catch 22 situation when you can't get experience without a job & can't get a job without experience. My financial situation is still a bit tricky as I have a mortgage, no family support & still paying off the end of my training loan. Therefore, I haven't been in a position to fund a type rating or work for next to nothing on a full time basis. I have even offered to work part time for peanuts on my days off but I am very keen to get started.

As for instructing, I would like to get involved in training if I am lucky enough get an airline job, so for that reason I will be doing an instructor rating in the new year if nothing turns up in the meantime. The funding will be very hard to find but I am determined to make something happen. I will work my socks off if I have to.

I knew too what I was getting into when I started my training. Nothing in life is guaranteed. I went out & got my licence because I just love to fly & don't want to do anything else. Some call it crazy, but this is something I am really passionate about & it's a job I'd love.

If anyone out there thinks they could use a good pilot with no type rating but several years of valuable flight ops experience, I would be delighted to hear from you. Good luck to all out there seeking a break in the industry & to everyone else, thanks for stopping by.

Stovepipe

Hi there
Instructing is a good way to get hours, make more contacts and keep you current and keep your head up! You have to beg, borrow or steal the money to fund the Rating and get it done. A huge amount of pilots have made it to the right seat from contacts made thru instructing. Also, in the UK in particular, you won't get a start in some of the third-level operators unless you have Instructor experience or have accumulated the 750 hours demanded of the old UK CPL. In a lot of cases, flying light twins is unobtainable unless you have several hundred multi hours, quite simply because the insurance companies won't touch you unless your potential employer is willing to pay huge premiums. The only way to accumulate lots of multi is to fund an instructor's rating, fund a multi-instructor's rating and plough away from there. As for gliding, it's very hard to get a start as a tug pilot as you invariably have to have a solo rating on a glider, at the absolute least, which can take a long time to accumulate. Glider schools often prefer to keep tug time for the CFI and/ or PPL A/G who aren't going anywhere and are willing to turn out every weekend. They often demand lots of tailwheel time. Getting a start as a para pilot is similar and is often unpaid or sub starvation wages apply. As for other countries, Italy will often not allow you to fly there as a CPL unless an Italian has been offered the post first, no matter how menial or they will demand a minimum of 1500 hrs. In fact, it's pretty standard for a European country to refuse outsiders a start unless they can speak the local language like a native or have sat local exams or bought a TR there. What I've also personally encountered is a refusal to accept American experience. I met one UK CFI who said that he would not accept any pilot who had hour-built in the USA. There is still an ingrained dislike of American ratings and experience on this side of the pond. Apart from that, in most cases, the Old Pals Act applies.

regards
Stovepipe

LeftBase

I know a few guys that have got hired( or enslaved) by Ryanair, but they all had a few quid left over and very nice banks/credit unions.

There are places going if you have the dosh to cough up for a Type Rating......but not many people do!