thinking of studying law

dublinjackine

Hi Guys, im looking for some advice on studying law for the first time, can anyone recommend a intro course? or what first steps and decent college I could look into enrolling in and cost wise. feedback is much appreciated thanks

Procrastastudy

dublinjackine wrote: »

Hi Guys, im looking for some advice on studying law for the first time, can anyone recommend a intro course? or what first steps and decent college I could look into enrolling in and cost wise. feedback is much appreciated thanks

Bazzilion threads on this but here is some shilling on behalf of GCD.

Firstly ask yourself why you are studying law. There virtually no hope of a career as a Barrister or Solicitor. Thats if there are even two professions by the time you graduate due to a movement towards a single profession (like the US). That said I personally think it's an excellent degree to do as an interest subject if you're into arguing and rules with a bit of history thrown in.

Cost wise try and get into one of the Universities. I'm going to assume you're in Dublin. TCD is obviously the holy grail with UCD following in behind a little. DCU and DIT and NUI(Maynooth) offer full-time undergraduate law degrees. Are you looking to combine Law with another subject? Business, Politics, Economics for example. I suppose it's worth asking if you are looking to do this part-time or full time?

If you are looking at the private colleges I obviously prefer GCD, I think they are as close to going to a proper University setting as you get without actually going to a University in regard to extra-circular stuff. Colleges will spoon feed you a lot more (suits some) and there will be plenty of contact hours in a seminar type environment. One thing I will say about GCD is there is a real opportunity to speak to lecturers on a one-to-one basis if you aren't understanding something. There is some excellent interaction. Contrasted to large lecture theaters full of students. I've also heard good things about Independent Colleges. I know nothing about City and DBS (Portobello) has a bit of question mark over it because of the awarding body and a wee bit of controversy a few years back. (Google it)

Cost wise 18K is what you'll be spending going to a private college. As for introductory courses - GCD's IILEX (Legal execs course) is about 4.5K - gives you direct entrace to LLB (degree) second year and can be done on-line or in class. You also end up with a qualification after one year.

There is the option of doing a 2 year diploma course through the KI. If I wasn't in receipt of the BTEA and had done my research better when starting out (I want to be a Barrister when I grow up!) I'd have done the KI Dip course in all honesty.

Just my ramblings - Your Mileage May Vary.

dublinjackine

thanks so much for your post, useful information to think about, Im currently living in kildare looking at GCD seems more likely choice, but might also give NUI Maynooth a call, In relation to BTEA i am currently on Job Seekers and wondering would i get BTEA and try KI Diploma would KI be better?

again i really appreciate as much advice possible thank you

Thirdfox

Procrastastudy wrote: »

...There virtually no hope of a career as a Barrister or Solicitor...

I would take issue with that statement - the legal industry went through a contraction a few years ago but things are turning around slightly now (from what I see). For those who have the right skills, determination, knowledge and character it is eminently possible to become a solicitor (I can't speak for barristers-to-be). I realise that the conveyancing sector is still in the doldrums but economic activity is picking up again.

It's no bed of roses (typing this on my dinner break while in work ) - but it's not as gloomy as that sentence implies.

I agree with most of what you say though I'm trying to say that if it's a case that you want to be a lawyer please don't give up hope yet!

Procrastastudy

Thirdfox wrote: »

I would take issue with that statement - the legal industry went through a contraction a few years ago but things are turning around slightly now (from what I see). For those who have the right skills, determination, knowledge and character it is eminently possible to become a solicitor (I can't speak for barristers-to-be). I realise that the conveyancing sector is still in the doldrums but economic activity is picking up again.

It's no bed of roses (typing this on my dinner break while in work ) - but it's not as gloomy as that sentence implies.

I agree with most of what you say though I'm trying to say that if it's a case that you want to be a lawyer please don't give up hope yet!

Happy to hear it! I do think it's wise to emphasise the competition for jobs though. A GCD student (like myself) is going to have to set themselves apart from TCD and UCD students. It's very possible and again another plug for GCD in that there are various activities they run that will help you OP.

BTEA is after 12 month on Job Seekers, it is possible to to get it sooner if you write in. No BTEA for Part Time courses like Kings Inns Dip though.

lawfilly

You can get the ordinary dole while doing the part-time Dip in KI! Its practically the same as the BTEA!

Best thing to is talk to the colleges in relation to their law courses.

Things are tough in the interest but my no means impossible. I know loads of people craving out a good legal career, barristers and solicitors!

HellFireClub

lawfilly wrote: »

You can get the ordinary dole while doing the part-time Dip in KI! Its practically the same as the BTEA!

Best thing to is talk to the colleges in relation to their law courses.

Things are tough in the interest but my no means impossible. I know loads of people craving out a good legal career, barristers and solicitors!

There is of course the small little matter of finding 6K a year for the course fees for years 1 and 2 while on the scratcher though???

Procrastastudy

HellFireClub wrote: »

There is of course the small little matter of finding 6K a year for the course fees for years 1 and 2 while on the scratcher though???

Still cheaper than doing a degree though a private college to gain entry to the BL course. Although I still think the ILEX course is the way to go if you want a years 'taster'.

That said by far the best bet is to get into a proper university - its not as hard as it seems. I got acceptances from DCU and DIT as a transfer. TCD and UCD have access programmes for mature students.

HellFireClub

Procrastastudy wrote: »

Still cheaper than doing a degree though a private college to gain entry to the BL course. Although I still think the ILEX course is the way to go if you want a years 'taster'.

That said by far the best bet is to get into a proper university - its not as hard as it seems. I got acceptances from DCU and DIT as a transfer. TCD and UCD have access programmes for mature students.

I am genuinely astounded by a comment above that says that someone who does the degree in GCD is somehow in a different, more inferior league than someone who does a law degree in Trinity or UCD. What the fúck is that all about? Surely someone's competence as a practitioner in any area, not just law, is not simply a function of where they studied??? I genuinely thought that kind of extremely elitist bullshít was a thing of the past in this country.

Procrastastudy

HellFireClub wrote: »

I am genuinely astounded by a comment above that says that someone who does the degree in GCD is somehow in a different, more inferior league than someone who does a law degree in Trinity or UCD. What the fúck is that all about? Surely someone's competence as a practitioner in any area, not just law, is not simply a function of where they studied??? I genuinely thought that kind of extremely elitist bullshít was a thing of the past in this country.

That comment was based on GCD is 18K for the degree and TCD/any Uni/IT is potentially Zero + grant. Thats said if you think that TCDs resourses, such as having people like (until very recently) Prof. Bincy lecturing, a longer more diverse degree doesnt count for anything over a degree from GCD then you are kidding yourself. I say this as a GCD student myself. That said there will be GCD students who stand out head and shoulders above UCD and TCD students. I'm speaking from the point of view of people that just get the basic degree and dont do anything outside of the degree.

McCrack

HellFireClub wrote: »

I am genuinely astounded by a comment above that says that someone who does the degree in GCD is somehow in a different, more inferior league than someone who does a law degree in Trinity or UCD. What the fúck is that all about? Surely someone's competence as a practitioner in any area, not just law, is not simply a function of where they studied??? I genuinely thought that kind of extremely elitist bullshít was a thing of the past in this country.

I think it's more about getting your foot in the door, there is certainly a bias in mid-large firms for NUI gratuates. Of couse lawyerin has little to do with undergrad (or post-grad) learning or what college you went to. Some of the biggist twats and incompetents I have come accross in the job have sadly BCL/LLM and PH this coming out of their ears.

HellFireClub

McCrack wrote: »

I think it's more about getting your foot in the door, there is certainly a bias in mid-large firms for NUI gratuates. Of couse lawyerin has little to do with undergrad (or post-grad) learning or what college you went to. Some of the biggist twats and incompetents I have come accross in the job have sadly BCL/LLM and PH this coming out of their ears.

I actually think these days, a top drawer (Trinity/UCD) degree could mitigate against an applicant for a job. Let's face it, we've all met people who have come out of these universities with a notion in their head that they have been educated far beyond the specification that is possible in any other establishment. As an employer, it's something that I'd be cautious of, someone thinking that the place of education can confer a sense of entitlement in itself. I've seen this before with Trinity graduates in particular, I've even seen it oozing from people who haven't even yet graduated from TCD, an absolute aloofness that seems to be specific to the place...

Thirdfox

HellFireClub wrote: »

I actually think these days, a top drawer (Trinity/UCD) degree could mitigate against an applicant for a job. Let's face it, we've all met people who have come out of these universities with a notion in their head that they have been educated far beyond the specification that is possible in any other establishment. As an employer, it's something that I'd be cautious of, someone thinking that the place of education can confer a sense of entitlement in itself. I've seen this before with Trinity graduates in particular, I've even seen it oozing from people who haven't even yet graduated from TCD, an absolute aloofness that seems to be specific to the place...

Again, typing this on my dinner break(!) - some large firms recruit across the board. But it is not crazy to state that others recruit primarily from TCD/UCD (or perhaps are more inclined to give them internship/traineeship opportunities).

I would have to say that a TCD/UCD cannot do you any harm and I cannot fathom it going against someone to have studied there. People I work with also studied in Cambridge, Harvard etc. and they are a delight to work with. My point is not that someone from GCD wouldn't be a delight to work with also, rather, the point that TCD students are more aloof or socially inept is one I cannot agree with. You'll have prats everywhere.

The reason to go to Trinity is not so you can sprout Latin to demonstrate your superiority over the common man, but so that you can gain access to a world class library system and some of the most distinguished legal professors and academics in the country etc.. It's still up to the individual to make use of those facilities to their best advantage.

You'll like us if you know us!

Procrastastudy

I have to say my personal dealings with TCD Law students at debates, Moots and conferences etc is that they are generally very nice. I've actually got more of an 'attitude' vibe from DCU students.

DIT; I can only assume being mental is part of the entry requirements. I mean this in the best possible way.

Not my personal experience but my wife did her PhD at UCD and briefly lectured and invigilated there; her experience would more closely resemble what is being leveled at TCD students. That said I say that in the full knowledge that there are nice people and asshats where ever you go.

I realise this is getting OT so OP to reiterate - ideally a 'proper' University based on nothing more than cost. King Inns Diploma is excellent, so I've heard, but quite narrow in application. Where ever you go - do something to make yourself stand out and get involved with as much as possible without it effecting your academic performance.

EDIT: I should have said this at the very beginning - there are many applications of a Law Degree outside of the legal profession so, imho, its a good degree to do out of interest.

Thirdfox

Procrastastudy wrote: »

I realise this is getting OT so OP to reiterate - ideally a 'proper' University based on nothing more than cost. King Inns Diploma is excellent, so I've heard, but quite narrow in application. Where ever you go - do something to make yourself stand out and get involved with as much as possible without it effecting your academic performance.

Don't be pac-man :pac: - be a well-rounded individual! Law firms like to see people who aren't academic robots. Equally, if you're just into socialising, a career in law may not suit as you still need to have the fundamental academic ability. Be excellent in a particular niche - how are you special to the other 500-700 people applying for a particular position?

I think it's less to do with "wow, she is no.1 ranked pianist in Ireland" and more to do with "hmm, I'm impressed that she has the dedication and self discipline to master her chosen field/hobby so completely, while maintaining academic standards - she is an impressive candidate and someone who can grow at this firm".

Of course, all of the above is entirely my personal view on the matter!

lawfilly

Just to clarify a few points about the KI Dip *place pedantic hat on head*

It's 4975 euro a year, 20% of which is refundable through tax.

It does not have a narrow application but rather teaches 14 substantive law subjects and can be used as a great addition to any academic cv!


Its also probably far more personable than a larger college!

KoukiKeith

I'd like to give my 2 cents worth here too. I'm a GCC graduate myself and wouldn't have a bad word said against the place. I previously went to UCC and much preferred the closer, personal surroundings that Griffith can offer. In saying that, however, I completely agree with Procrastastudy - You'll most certainly be up against the 'real' universities. It really is a case of setting yourself apart.

Ask yourself what would you like out of Law. If you can only see yourself at a mid-top tier firm then really you are going to have to put some serious work in. These firms also evaluate your LC results too so keep that in mind if they aren't great.

Do you have any 'contacts' in the legal profession? I hate the whole jobs-for-the-boyos culture but it undoubtedly works well & will vastly simplify the post-graduation process.

All in all and despite the difficulties of the current climate, I couldn't picture myself pursuing any other profession so if you're in the same boat - Go for it!

Procrastastudy

lawfilly wrote: »

It does not have a narrow application but rather teaches 14 substantive law subjects and can be used as a great addition to any academic cv!

The corrections are most welcome but I have to argue the point with you ref its narrow application. I'm sure it's great when looked at as an addition to someone with an undergraduate degree and possibly a masters. Given the OPs posting style and information requested I'm assuming they don't have an academic CV. Respectfully I have to make the point that the Dip, for someone without any other sort of qualification, it will likely only get you access to the BL entrance exams.

Gibbonw2

I am a late 20s male and I have yet to get my career up and running.

I had a great leaving cert (circa 500 points) and have a 2.1 graduate degree comprising legal, economic and political modules.

Since 18 I have battled a neurological illness which has interfered with my studies, forcing me to effectively write off two years of college as I deferred and eventually switched courses.

When I got out of college, I entered a recession hit job market and I was still convinced I wanted to enter the legal sector.
I started a postgraduate course in law just after my degree but when my illness, which had not properly been dealt with reemerged, I again dropped out.

During college and 2 years subsequent I worked as an assistant/ manager in a retail/wholesale business.
Whilst I enjoyed the job, i never saw it as a long term thing for me and, basically, I wasnt treated well by the owners.
I quit without giving notice in March 2011 and decided to take the solicitor entrance exams (FE1s)

Along with financial backing from my father and committed study I prepared well for the march 12 exams.
Once again, after one exam (which i was convinced i failed) the epilepsy reemerged and I had a seizure, and as I was 99% sure i couldnt have passed (I know, this was a silly presumption) I decided to postpone the exams until next sitting.

Of course, as you may suspect I did indeed pass said exam.

Needless to say I'm at my wits end, I dont know if I am wasting my time studying. I realise the lack of jobs in this sector yet I also dont want to 'dropout' of another life aim.

On the other hand I also have been in the long term unemployed bracket for far too long.
I haven't sat an interview in years, have little confidence in myself,I don't know how to conduct myself on a c.v./in an interview to explain the 'missing years' which this illness has forced me to write off and importantly haven't a clue what I REALLY want to be doing in 5 years time.

Whilst I don't expect a career guru to magically come upon this post, I would like some feedback as to what people think I should do in terms of facing some of these issues.

Any feedback is positive so please feel free to comment and suggest.

Thanks


ps, this was originally on another thread but i thought it might fit in here also

The_Morrigan

lawfilly wrote: »

Just to clarify a few points about the KI Dip *place pedantic hat on head*

It's 4975 euro a year, 20% of which is refundable through tax.

It does not have a narrow application but rather teaches 14 substantive law subjects and can be used as a great addition to any academic cv!


Its also probably far more personable than a larger college!

Don't forgot to deduct the first 1,125 Euro from that figure first

OP, if you are looking to get a feel for the core subjects to see if it peaks your interest before you commit to a three year degree, you could do a 12 month legal studies course.

I'm currently doing the LLB in DBS, in my final year now. However, I did the Advanced Diploma in Legal Studies with them first to see if I could actually deal with the study/work combination or whether it was just a silly notion that I wanted to study law because it was 'cool' :cool:.

It deals with the eight core subjects, obviously you don't cover everything, but you get a good grounding. I've found now that while I'm doing the same subjects in the degree that it's familiar territory and I'm not quite as overwhelmed as some of my classmates. I can also spend my time listening more to the lecturer and absorbing what he/she is saying, rather than being distracted trying to scribble down notes as I've already covered the basics in the Diploma.

Drop me a pm if you want anymore details.

edgal

Procrastastudy wrote: »

TCD is obviously the holy grail with UCD following in behind a little.

A bit off the point, but I was under the impression that UCD was superior to a law degree in TCD ? Perhaps they're pretty on par..

Manach

My 2c (minus Govern taxes) - the night-courses in evening law might also be an option, these lead to a degree but allow a build up of real-world experience during the day as well. Sleep is like, so over-rated.

The_Morrigan

Manach wrote: »

My 2c (minus Govern taxes) - the night-courses in evening law might also be an option, these lead to a degree but allow a build up of real-world experience during the day as well. Sleep is like, so over-rated.

That is what I do - work in a legal support dept 9-5, lectures four nights a week...
It is very tough, but you can learn on the job, annoy the trained legal staff with your random thoughts and theories and have them guide you on practical work etc

Thirdfox

edgal wrote: »

A bit off the point, but I was under the impression that UCD was superior to a law degree in TCD ? Perhaps they're pretty on par..

Trinity graduate here so entirely biased...

But I would say that apart from the resources and professors the cachet of the Trinity name is higher than UCD. Not necessarily the law faculty but rather the university itself. In the US they'll mostly have heard of Trinity, some will know UCD and then the rest are generally unknown.

So this does tie into the "snobbish" point I guess - while the standard of education may be very similar (and I believe the UCD library is open longer than TCD's...and they have that new 50m swimming pool). The fact that Trinity is an "institution" with over 400 years of history and is joined with its sister colleges in Oxford and Cambridge does give it a better networking/"wow" factor than UCD, especially abroad.

Having said that - I see plenty of people from various colleges in the firm and other firms. The good people always shine through no matter where you studied.

Here's a quote from a well known TCD alumni:

Samuel Beckett wrote:

Dublin university contains the cream of Ireland: Rich and thick.

:pac:

ResearchWill

Gibbonw2 wrote: »

I am a late 20s male and I have yet to get my career up and running.

I had a great leaving cert (circa 500 points) and have a 2.1 graduate degree comprising legal, economic and political modules.

Since 18 I have battled a neurological illness which has interfered with my studies, forcing me to effectively write off two years of college as I deferred and eventually switched courses.

When I got out of college, I entered a recession hit job market and I was still convinced I wanted to enter the legal sector.
I started a postgraduate course in law just after my degree but when my illness, which had not properly been dealt with reemerged, I again dropped out.

During college and 2 years subsequent I worked as an assistant/ manager in a retail/wholesale business.
Whilst I enjoyed the job, i never saw it as a long term thing for me and, basically, I wasnt treated well by the owners.
I quit without giving notice in March 2011 and decided to take the solicitor entrance exams (FE1s)

Along with financial backing from my father and committed study I prepared well for the march 12 exams.
Once again, after one exam (which i was convinced i failed) the epilepsy reemerged and I had a seizure, and as I was 99% sure i couldnt have passed (I know, this was a silly presumption) I decided to postpone the exams until next sitting.

Of course, as you may suspect I did indeed pass said exam.

Needless to say I'm at my wits end, I dont know if I am wasting my time studying. I realise the lack of jobs in this sector yet I also dont want to 'dropout' of another life aim.

On the other hand I also have been in the long term unemployed bracket for far too long.
I haven't sat an interview in years, have little confidence in myself,I don't know how to conduct myself on a c.v./in an interview to explain the 'missing years' which this illness has forced me to write off and importantly haven't a clue what I REALLY want to be doing in 5 years time.

Whilst I don't expect a career guru to magically come upon this post, I would like some feedback as to what people think I should do in terms of facing some of these issues.

Any feedback is positive so please feel free to comment and suggest.

Thanks


ps, this was originally on another thread but i thought it might fit in here also

Well you have one very necessary quality to get into law, that's determination. If your heart is set on law, then I would say in light of your condition the Bar may be a better option than solicitor route. The stress in a solicitors job in my opinion exceeds almost any other job out there, and from what you have said your epilepsy seems to be stress related. While it is a hard slog becoming a solicitor it only gets harder after qualification.

While the Bar has its own issues, poverty being the main one in the early years, it is a lot less stressful profession. So best of luck, hope it works out and bBTW late 20's is not old to be starting down the road in law.

Kate_B7

Is there much career prospects after doing a law degree, besides barister or solicter?

dienbienphu

ya theres a good few, Tesco are currently hiring cashiers but it really depends on what you want to do...

The_Morrigan

Kate_B7 wrote: »

Is there much career prospects after doing a law degree, besides barister or solicter?

I'm in the final stages of a law degree and I'm heading in the compliance and regulation direction rather than the traditional route of solicitor or barrister. This is an area that is more than likely going to see massive growth seeing as the global economies are well and truly in the toilet.

Others in my course are using the law degree to increase their knowledge in areas like legal support, HR, compliance and risk.

So yes, you could use the law degree as a knowledge base for other careers.