car price lists without excise duty / vat

the roadwarrior

does anyone know of a site or list of new irish cars for sale in ireland without excise duty or vat , I need to shop for my mother who luckily or otherwise will soon be able to purchase without above taxes due to mobility issues . Otherwise its a big traipse around all the showrooms with salesmen scratching their heads etc .

R.O.R

the roadwarrior wrote: »

does anyone know of a site or list of new irish cars for sale in ireland without excise duty or vat , I need to shop for my mother who luckily or otherwise will soon be able to purchase without above taxes due to mobility issues . Otherwise its a big traipse around all the showrooms with salesmen scratching their heads etc .

As far as I'm aware, no where publishes pricing like that, but you can work it out yourself.

Take the published list price and take 10% off that to come up with the OMSP (may not always be 10% but is for a lot of cars - that's the one figure that isn't really available).

Take the OMSP and multiply that by the VRT % rate to get the VRT amount.

Take the VRT amount off the published list price to get the ex. VRT price.

23% of this price is the vehicle price before VAT & VRT.

Using a Corsa 1.3CDTi 75ps ecoFLEX 5dr
List price = €16,450
OMSP = €14,805
VRT @ 14% (110g) = €2,0723 (rounded down to nearest €)
EX. VRT price - €16,450 - €2,072 = €14,378
€14,378 Less VAT @ 23% = €11,689.43 (€14,378 / 1.23)

Ex. VAT, Ex. VRT price is €11,689.43

Hal Decks

But VRT includes VAT? Shouldn't the sale price, therefore, include VAT @ 23%?

R.O.R

Hal Decks wrote: »

But VRT includes VAT? Shouldn't the sale price, therefore, include VAT @ 23%?

VRT includes VAT? News to me....

the roadwarrior

eh will bear in mind , i will ring one dealer i know will be straight forward and see how that works ifor his price thanks

mickdw

Hal Decks wrote: »

But VRT includes VAT? Shouldn't the sale price, therefore, include VAT @ 23%?

The vrt is charged on the omsp which is based on vat and vrt inclusive price.
The example worked out above would be accurate imo

CiniO

R.O.R wrote: »

Take the published list price and take 10% off that to come up with the OMSP (may not always be 10% but is for a lot of cars - that's the one figure that isn't really available).


List price = €16,450
OMSP = €14,805

Why is that list price is higher than OMSP price?

Hal Decks

R.O.R wrote: »

VRT includes VAT? News to me....

From www.revenue.ie

Value-Added Tax (VAT) charges on new vehicles bought and sold by an authorised motor dealer

In general, VAT is due (at the standard rate) on the full purchase price received by a dealer for any vehicle. However, in the sale of an unregistered vehicle by an authorised dealer, Revenue will accept that the portion of the purchase price that represents the VRT liability is paid by the dealer in the name and on the account of the purchaser; i.e., the customer pays the VRT, and the dealer simply administers the payment from the money handed to him or her. Accordingly, the VAT liability on the sale of a new vehicle by an authorised motor dealer is generally calculated on the VRT-exclusive amount received from the customer. (This also applies in the case of a second-hand or used vehicle brought into the State by an authorised dealer, and sold by him or her prior to being registered in Ireland.) In the case of the sale of a registered vehicle, a VAT liability arises on the full VRT-inclusive amount received, and no adjustment is allowed.

VAT is charged on the full retail price but, for new cars, the VRT paid is deemed to include the VAT, the dealer, therfore, only has to reimburse Revenue for the portion of VAT applicable on the ex-VRT price.

VRT, therefore, is tax on tax on tax.

VAT is supposed to be tax on Goods and Services, it shouldn't be applicable to another tax, like VRT.

R.O.R

Hal Decks wrote: »

From www.revenue.ie



VAT is charged on the full retail price but, for new cars, the VRT paid is deemed to include the VAT, the dealer, therfore, only has to reimburse Revenue for the portion of VAT applicable on the ex-VRT price.

VRT, therefore, is tax on tax on tax.

VAT is supposed to be tax on Goods and Services, it shouldn't be applicable to another tax, like VRT.

Let me have a look at the last invoice I got from a dealer...

.....

.....

Nope, you're still wrong.


There is no VAT charged on the VRT element of the car. VAT is charged on the ex. VRT figures and then the total VRT charge for that vehicle is added on top to bring it up to the invoice total.

Hal Decks

R.O.R wrote: »

Let me have a look at the last invoice I got from a dealer...

.....

.....

Nope, you're still wrong.


There is no VAT charged on the VRT element of the car. VAT is charged on the ex. VRT figures and then the total VRT charge for that vehicle is added on top to bring it up to the invoice total.

I'm not wrong. VRT includes VAT. The dealer doesn't charge VAT on VRT, it is deemed to be included. His VAT return is only on the portion you have correctly identified.

mickdw

Hal Decks wrote: »

I'm not wrong. VRT includes VAT. The dealer doesn't charge VAT on VRT, it is deemed to be included. His VAT return is only on the portion you have correctly identified.

Vrt is charged on a price that included vat and vrt. i.e. it is reverse calculated based on what a car is going to retail at. There is no vat included in the vrt tax element.

You have base price, then 23% of this added as vat portion. VRt then calculated on omsp which for the purposes of this argument we can call the sale price.


The confusion here might be relating to the way a dealer pays vat on his profits from buying and selling. This is a completely different point to the question asked by the op. The vat and vrt free price of a car is calculated as shown by ror.

Hal Decks

mickdw wrote: »

Vrt is charged on a price that included vat and vrt.

..........

mickdw wrote: »

........ There is no vat included in the vrt tax element.

.....

You are contradicting yourself.

Look at the piece I quoted from Revenue. It clearly states VRT includes VAT.

VRT includes VAT (wrongly, IMO), but does not feature in any VAT return.

lomb

What sort of mobility problems are needed to get a tax free car? Is there a price limit on it and how long do you have to keep it for before selling it. Any refund back to the government on sale?

colm_mcm

Hal Decks wrote: »

You are contradicting yourself.

Look at the piece I quoted from Revenue. It clearly states VRT includes VAT.

VRT includes VAT (wrongly, IMO), but does not feature in any VAT return.

VRT is a tax based on the value of something, of course all values are based on market values which would have VAT in them, but could not be claimed by a business either way.

It breaks down thus;

Ex vat price
23% vat on top of that
VRT at a set rate based on market value of car - not on invoice price.




If the dealer charges you 20 grand or 25 grand for a certain model of car, the VRT is the same regardless.

This tax on a tax nonsense is usually spouted by the same people who go on about it being illegal and its been covered many times, for the purposes of this guys question, its exactly as R.O.R outlined.

CiniO

colm_mcm wrote: »

If the dealer charges you 20 grand or 25 grand for a certain model of car, the VRT is the same regardless.

That part is confusing for me.
VRT is charged on OMSP. But where does this price come from?
R.O.R said it's usually 10% less than listed price by dealer.... Why?

This tax on a tax nonsense is usually spouted by the same people who go on about it being illegal and its been covered many times, for the purposes of this guys question, its exactly as R.O.R outlined.

It's not nonsense. It is tax on tax, as you said yourself VRT is calculated on OMSP, which already contains VAT and VRT.
So VRT is tax not only on car price, but also on VAT and VRT itself, which is the biggest trick. VRT calculated on a base of a price which already contains VRT and this makes actual VRT rates higher than they are, which I outlined on this forum pretty recently with an example - in general instead of paying f.e. 20% VRT, you really pay about 30%.

colm_mcm

CiniO wrote: »

That part is confusing for me.
VRT is charged on OMSP. But where does this price come from?
R.O.R said it's usually 10% less than listed price by dealer.... Why?




It's not nonsense. It is tax on tax, as you said yourself VRT is calculated on OMSP, which already contains VAT and VRT.
So VRT is tax not only on car price, but also on VAT and VRT itself, which is the biggest trick. VRT calculated on a base of a price which already contains VRT and this makes actual VRT rates higher than they are, which I outlined on this forum pretty recently with an example - in general instead of paying f.e. 20% VRT, you really pay about 30%.

The OMSP is determined by revenue, its probably based on the likely discount you'd receive.

Example, vrt on say a focus tdci lx is €1500, it'll be €1500 whether you pay list price or get €3000 off, whether you trade a car in, or buy straight. It's a set price.

Vrt is calculated on the OMSP which is not based on invoice price, its based on an accepted market value, same as if you're importing a car from the UK. nobody likes taxes, but its a very transparent one and you have the choice to buy a car or not buy one.

CiniO

colm_mcm wrote: »

The OMSP is determined by revenue, its probably based on the likely discount you'd receive.

Example, vrt on say a focus tdci lx is €1500, it'll be €1500 whether you pay list price or get €3000 off, whether you trade a car in, or buy straight. It's a set price.

Oh yea. That's clear for me.
But I just got curious, why R.O.R mentioned OMSP at about 10% lower than listed price.
Does that mean that dealers give 10% discount on average?

Vrt is calculated on the OMSP which is not based on invoice price, its based on an accepted market value, same as if you're importing a car from the UK. nobody likes taxes, but its a very transparent one and you have the choice to buy a car or not buy one.

I never denied the sense of VRT or said it was illegal.
Maybe it is transparent in way that you can usually easily find out how much are you going to pay knowing what car are you willing to purchase.
But fact that this tax it's calculated on price which already contain this tax, doesn't make it really clear, rather opposite.

We have VAT at 23%. That's prefectly clear.
You buy procduct for 1000 and you know you will pay 230 vat.
But when it comes to VRT, which they claim is f.e. 20%, at car which costs 10,000 you pay 3000 VRT which is 30% actually. So it's not clear at all to be honest.

mickdw

Hal Decks wrote: »

You are contradicting yourself.

Look at the piece I quoted from Revenue. It clearly states VRT includes VAT.

VRT includes VAT (wrongly, IMO), but does not feature in any VAT return.

I give up. I don't know what argument you are attempting to make but the calculation is as ROR said.

Can you show us the correct calc in your opinion.

Technoprisoner

colm_mcm wrote: »

VRT is a tax based on the value of something, of course all values are based on market values which would have VAT in them, but could not be claimed by a business either way.

It breaks down thus;

Ex vat price
23% vat on top of that
VRT at a set rate based on market value of car - not on invoice price.




If the dealer charges you 20 grand or 25 grand for a certain model of car, the VRT is the same regardless.

This tax on a tax nonsense is usually spouted by the same people who go on about it being illegal and its been covered many times, for the purposes of this guys question, its exactly as R.O.R outlined.

the vat on vat that is spouted is because the revenue take the omsp of the car, that already has the vat and vrt added to it to calculate the vrt price

Hal Decks

mickdw wrote: »

I give up. I don't know what argument you are attempting to make.....

I'm not making any argument.

mickdw wrote: »

.......... the calculation is as ROR said.

..........QUOTE]

His calculation is correct, for the portion of VAT to be returned by the dealer. The remainder of the VAT is included in the VRT payment.

mickdw wrote: »

.....

Can you show us the correct calc in your opinion.

Not necessary. I've pointed it out twice already, straight from the Revenue website. The full price of the car includes 23% VAT.

The reason Revenue state this is to ensure the full price of a used car is subject to VAT and no discount can be applied for any residual portion of VRT.

Ireland's method of calculating VRT is ham-fisted, awkward and grossly unfair. As for its legality? It has yet to be proven illegal.

knifey_spoonie

VRT amounts are decided by revenue, you have no say what the amount is. If you want to know the vrt, get a vrt quote via revenue.ie

This is how the figures must be worked out(makey uppy figures BTW)

Vehicle Price 16000

VRT 2016

EX VRT Price 13984

VAT Amount 2587.89

Cost of Vehicle 11396.11

CiniO

knifey_spoonie wrote: »

VRT amounts are decided by revenue, you have no say what the amount is. If you want to know the vrt, get a vrt quote via revenue.ie

This is how the figures must be worked out(makey uppy figures BTW)

Vehicle Price 16000

VRT 2016

EX VRT Price 13984

VAT Amount 2587.89

Cost of Vehicle 11396.11

VRT at 2016 (assuming 14% rate) makes OMSP at 14,400.
Why then vehicle price is 16,000?

knifey_spoonie

CiniO wrote: »

VRT at 2016 (assuming 14% rate) makes OMSP at 14,400.
Why then vehicle price is 16,000?

cough: (makey uppy figures BTW)

Edit: Instead of fibing you off with a smart arse answer

Infact if you would have read the thread you would have seen that OMSP is calculated at 90% of the retail price. This is the way revenue work their figures, i have no idea why but thats the way it is.

CiniO

knifey_spoonie wrote: »

cough: (makey uppy figures BTW)

Makey uppy, but they make sense, according to what was said before that OMSP is 10% lower than listed price... Your makey uppy adheres to this.
But I still can't understand - why.

Big Nasty

CiniO wrote: »

But I still can't understand - why.

Because that's the why.

Hal Decks

CiniO wrote: »

Makey uppy, but they make sense, according to what was said before that OMSP is 10% lower than listed price... Your makey uppy adheres to this.
But I still can't understand - why.

I think the figure would be closer to 92% but it has to be less than 100% of the list price due to the real world experience that virtually nobody pays full list price for the car. The List price is the aspirrational selling price, the OMSP is supposed to be the actual selling price.

Volkswagen Ireland were fined, some years back, for using a figure for OMSP that was below any price they actually sold a car for.

e.g. they were calculating VRT based on 90% of the list price but, in reality, refused to offer a discount anything approaching that. In effect they were under-declaring their taxes.

R.O.R

Hal Decks wrote: »

I'm not making any argument.
Not necessary. I've pointed it out twice already, straight from the Revenue website. The full price of the car includes 23% VAT.

Can you explain then, why the only VAT we can reclaim on new car purchases at work (and we can reclaim it) is the VAT amount paid on the dealer invoice, and no allowance for this mystical VRT VAT?


Cinio - no idea why the 90% is used to get the OMSP and then that's used for the VRT. When we did the new VRT calculations for July 2008 it was 92% being used and that's what I originally had in my calcuations, but a quick check of a couple of volume manufacturer price lists gave me a 90% figure to get the actual VRT & VAT figures.

Hal Decks

Value-Added Tax (VAT) charges on new vehicles bought and sold by an authorised motor dealer


In general, VAT is due (at the standard rate) on the full purchase price received by a dealer for any vehicle. However, in the sale of an unregistered vehicle by an authorised dealer, Revenue will accept that the portion of the purchase price that represents the VRT liability is paid by the dealer in the name and on the account of the purchaser; i.e., the customer pays the VRT, and the dealer simply administers the payment from the money handed to him or her. Accordingly, the VAT liability on the sale of a new vehicle by an authorised motor dealer is generally calculated on the VRT-exclusive amount received from the customer. (This also applies in the case of a second-hand or used vehicle brought into the State by an authorised dealer, and sold by him or her prior to being registered in Ireland.) In the case of the sale of a registered vehicle, a VAT liability arises on the full VRT-inclusive amount received, and no adjustment is allowed.

Therefore, if you only pay VAT on the non-VRT value of a car, what VAT would be applicable on a pre-registered car?

Who am I to justify any Revenue rules and regulations? These are the same people who used to insist on the VAT being paid on the trade-in value of the car and not the actual sale price, if the sale price was lower. I guess this is one loop-hole that catches the likes of you guys?


They have to state VAT is applicable on 100% of the sale price because of the implications for pre-registered cars, where they apply VAT on the full price (which includes VRT).

the culture of deference

Just to see if I understand this

If a new BAND A car is 10,000 euro vat and vrt free.


The car is then 12,300 VAT inc.


Then the 14% VRT is based on the OMSP figure of 90-92% which is the full VAT and VRT price.

So the OMSP figure is 90-92% of 10,000+2,300+ 14% vrt figure as derived from the OMSP in the 1st place.

vectra

R.O.R wrote: »

As far as I'm aware, no where publishes pricing like that, but you can work it out yourself.

Take the published list price and take 10% off that to come up with the OMSP (may not always be 10% but is for a lot of cars - that's the one figure that isn't really available).

Take the OMSP and multiply that by the VRT % rate to get the VRT amount.

Take the VRT amount off the published list price to get the ex. VRT price.

23% of this price is the vehicle price before VAT & VRT.

Using a Corsa 1.3CDTi 75ps ecoFLEX 5dr
List price = €16,450
OMSP = €14,805
VRT @ 14% (110g) = €2,0723 (rounded down to nearest €)
EX. VRT price - €16,450 - €2,072 = €14,378
€14,378 Less VAT @ 23% = €11,689.43 (€14,378 / 1.23)

Ex. VAT, Ex. VRT price is €11,689.43

mickdw wrote: »

I give up. I don't know what argument you are attempting to make but the calculation is as ROR said.

Can you show us the correct calc in your opinion.

R.O.R is spot on with his calculation.

You have been asked to demonstrate your calculation and show us where R.O.R is wrong.

* Still Waiting *