Band Promotion: Your place to discuss promotion and putting on a show

raindog.promo

I think it may be time to take a step back in this forum and have a look at things in the light of reality, not idealisms.

Nearly every, if not all gig opportunities posted up on this forum get attacked. Some deservedly so.
But the first thing that always comes up is:

Why should the band have to promote the night? that's your job!

I think it should be acknowledged that the level of professionalism at this stage (on this forum) is such that no-one is probably going to make much money (for now) and while ideally, there should be a promoter, in reality there most likely isn't. More likely, you have someone such as PTO here, who is "having a go" (as he plainly stated in the OP) at running a night.

So why not call it that? PTO's job is running the night and the band's job is to play the night. Let's, for the sake of maximizing the possible gains both parties could get, share the role of promotion? maybe sit down and work out a plan between the two parties to maximize the numbers coming in through the door.

It could be something as simple as we'll do a facebook/twitter campaign and try getting the gig mentioned on the radio, ring around any of our friends to try and get us a mention wherever they possibly could, try even to get a radio session beforehand. The other person will get posters printed up and hung up around town and the local area of the venue.

Surely working together is better than bickering and pointing the finger at each other screaming "You have to do this, no you have to do that"

Because from reading these "bands wanted to gig" ads the promoter/band divide setup does not seem to be working.

Do it once, sit down and see how much money was made, have an agreement that if the money is split after the first 15 people (@ €10 per head for the sake of argument) and the place makes a profit of €250, then the next time you gig there, the rental price will be €100.

But this is pay to play!

The huff that people get into about "pay to play" needs a rethink too. Where else can you use a room for any activity and expect not to have to pay for it? See it as that. You're renting the room for the night so you can use the room to put on a gig with the help of the OP here who is going to make sure the event runs as smooth as possible and both of you are going to promote it.

In that case why shouldn't the rent be half that price? ie, why doesn't PTO pay half?

It's a fair question. Look into renting out a room yourself and compare prices. I think €150 is actually pretty good for renting a room for the night.


Don't forget there's always other options:
If all that seems like too much hard work or beneath you, then put the gig on yourself. Go and rent out a room, provide a PA, provide backline equipment, mixing desk, sound engineer, door people, security, meet whatever safety regulations are required. And of course, promote it yourself.

***

Sad to say, if your band were pulling in enough people at every gig to be considered moderately successful, a bit of a name on the scene, then you might start looking for the services of a promoter or even be approached by promoters. The above problems probably would no longer be problems.


One thing this community forum has had a hand in changing (I like to think) is some of the more dubious practises going on where bands were getting terribly ripped off, but there will be situations where the odds are against the band. There's other bands willing to play for free and much worse just for the chance to play, so every other band is being undercut from the start.

In an ideal world it should be 50/50 in fairness to both sides, but it won't be in all likelihood. Surely accepting this and building up a good working relationship and improving your conditions with every gig, better rates, less charges, more cash, to go alongside the (hopefully) ever increasing numbers.


PTO's OP seemed reasonably fair to me, if I could offer advice, I'd try and get a better way of handling the money than punters coming in and having to say what band they're there to see. I just think it's messy and just don't like it. I'd rather be indiscriminate and first 15 people in goes towards the rent and the rest gets split evenly. If one of the bands didn't pull their weight, then don't have them on again. That way it may not be fair in the short term but in the long term, harder working (and most likely more professional) bands get to work together and this will only help to increase the number of punters coming in.

I felt I had to write something because the confrontational nature of off.the.wall's post seemed a bit out of hand. PTO stated they were having a go, so it's reasonable to assume they're not professional, possibly haven't done any gigs.
off.the.walls did a similar post (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=73125437) but they came on speaking in such a way that you would presume they were a professional, but many questions needed to be asked. I don't think that PTO came on doing the same and was treated fairly harsh. Off.the.walls, could have maybe offered a bit more friendly advice, as he says, he's tried before and it wasn't a complete success. If you don't mind highlighting some of the problems you encountered, we could maybe come up with a workaround that works for everyone.

Seriously though, can we stop the band vs promoter thing? It'll never work on a forum of this level (in my opinion, which I am only too aware may well be bull****)


I think what I wrote above is pretty fair to all concerned and could actually work*. How about we start a thread and hammer out what the community feels would be the best deal for all parties and leave that as a template for organizers and bands alike to refer to if they so wish?

*I welcome other opinions and suggestions

Let's put together something that actually ****ing works for everyone concerned instead of having the same circular arguments time and again!

Papa S, you were saying you wanted to start doing BYOB's which I'm looking into doing myself so let's catagorize /list what is needed to put a gig together, whether it's provided by the venue or you need to provide it yourself (depending on the type of gig) so other people on the forums realize what goes into putting on a gig is a lot more than just showing up and getting locked before hitting the stage*?

*Something I had to learn quite a number of times**
**Enjoyable lesson though.


Whatever happens, best of luck with the endeavour PTO. When it works, it's a great feeling; when it doesn't you'll realize it's a thankless chore!

WMD MEDIA

Good way could be Ask bands if they want to contribute a % towards the venue rental so say you have 4 bands and they all decide to pay 20% of the venue rental, once the door covers this their 20% could be returned and once into profit profits can be split 20% for each band.

raindog.promo

WMD MEDIA wrote: »

Good way could be Ask bands if they want to contribute a % towards the venue rental so say you have 4 bands and they all decide to pay 20% of the venue rental, once the door covers this their 20% could be returned and once into profit profits can be split 20% for each band.

That 20% from each band could then be used for the printing of promotional posters and flyers and whatnot?

If the gig doesn't go successfully (hey, it happens) you could see that as all of a sudden being pay to play or as an investment that didn't work out*. It happens to everyone.


*Like a haircut for a job interview (sacrilege, I know....)
If you don't get the job, then you've just paid the price of a haircut to sit an interview!

raindog.promo

Perhaps someone on boards could offer their services at a decent rate for poster design?
It might mean regular (if not massive amounts of cash) work?


So would it be better to seek the services of someone that would do it for free in order to fill out their portfolio?
If the band expects to get paid, why should anyone else be expected not to?

I think these type of questions are the reasons why you don't see promoters on this forum (for very long at least). They're expected to pay all cash up front and pay for promotion which even when keeping costs to a minimum still run a large enough risk of not being recouped (before you even start to think about profit). It just is not going to happen unless the promoter designs it themselves, which is expecting someone to do twice the work at half the pay.

I have split this thread from the other one as it makes sense to start a new topic on this, instead of clogging PTO's thread

WMD MEDIA

raindog.promo wrote: »

Perhaps someone on boards could offer their services at a decent rate for poster design?
It might mean regular (if not massive amounts of cash) work?


So would it be better to seek the services of someone that would do it for free in order to fill out their portfolio?
If the band expects to get paid, why should anyone else be expected not to?

I think these type of questions are the reasons why you don't see promoters on this forum (for very long at least). They're expected to pay all cash up front and pay for promotion which even when keeping costs to a minimum still run a large enough risk of not being recouped (before you even start to think about profit). It just is not going to happen unless the promoter designs it themselves, which is expecting someone to do twice the work at half the pay.

I'd like to put myself forward for that could do poster designs for about 40 euro, only thing is they would have to print them themselves because printing out 200+ flyers and posters would cost way to much. Anyone setting up gigs PM me and we can go through stuff
www.facebook.com/wmdmedia thats what i'm using until i finish my website at the moment

raindog.promo

Reads of Nassau St.

50 A3 colour posters = €47 (100 gram = standard paper)
100 A4 colour posters = €50 (100 gram = standard paper)
TOTAL €97


Clear Print (Tallaght Area)

50 A3 = €36.90
100 A4 = €59.04
TOTAL €95.94


Aungier Print (Dublin 1)

50 A3 = €40
100 A4 = €55
TOTAL = €95


So you're looking in the region of €100 printing + the price of design

unless anyone can recommend somewhere that's cheaper?

WMD MEDIA

I have a A3 printer at home I could do 50a3 and 50 a4 for 75 + the 40 for design so would be. €115 for design+printing.

Gordon

WMD MEDIA wrote: »

I have a A3 printer at home I could do 50a3 and 50 a4 for 75 + the 40 for design so would be. €115 for design+printing.

Does the community know that you are user off.the.walls?

I'd prefer if you only had one account, thanks, please let me know which account you're sticking with.

Stereomaniac

I did not know that and I feel a bit creeped out now, to be honest. I wouldn't see the point in going to WMD when I can just design my own promotional materials for next to nothing.

off.the.walls

Stereomaniac wrote: »

I did not know that and I feel a bit creeped out now, to be honest. I wouldn't see the point in going to WMD when I can just design my own promotional materials for next to nothing.

Your creeped out because a few friends and myself set up a account to promote a business name rather than a personal one? theres 3 of us with access to that account but as discussed with the moderators that account is being closed.

As for materials, we have high quality lazer and ink jet printers with 3 experienced graphic designers who can design, print and get your flyers out on either normal or high quality paper. So if you want to spend your money making it yourself go ahead was just trying to help out offering the services.

Ev