What Power does the School have over Pupils after School Hours?

JackFDub

Hey all,
I was just thinking today, can a school punish someone for doing something out of school when they are not wearing the uniform and also when they are? And if they can for either, to what extent can they punish the student?
Thanks all!

krd

JackFDub wrote: »

Hey all,
I was just thinking today, can a school punish someone for doing something out of school when they are not wearing the uniform and also when they are? And if they can for either, to what extent can they punish the student?
Thanks all!

Don't tell me...........You were one of the young people caught on camera at the Dogfight in Douglas.

Jack.....You're in deep sh1t.

You need an attorney.

At this moment in time, I would advise you to neither confirm or deny anything.....They have footage, but it's really grainy. They may say "We have proof!!"....And then you ask them to show you the "proof"....they'll show the grainy video and you can say "That doesn't even look like me".......And that may not be a complete inexactitude. You may be fully aware that it is actually you on tape - but with the poor light, graininess in the texture of the footage, it doesn't really look like you - even though you fine well know it's you (guilty as f'ing sin) but it doesn't "look" like you. If they get heavy with you say "I have sought legal advice" (which you have) "And I have been advised to shut my f'ing mouth" (which you have).

Jack...I hope you beat this rap.........We're all pulling for ya....

But don't antagonise us with the F'dub thing. Jack...or maybe is it Jill......We feel no ill will towards you Corcaigh half-Spanish beach monkeys. You know we kind of like ye And the funny way ye talk.

Milk & Honey

JackFDub wrote: »

Hey all,
I was just thinking today, can a school punish someone for doing something out of school when they are not wearing the uniform and also when they are? And if they can for either, to what extent can they punish the student?
Thanks all!

A school can't do a thing to a student in those circumstances.

MagicSean

It depends ont he code of conduct the student and parents agreed to.

Procrastastudy

MagicSean wrote: »

It depends ont he code of conduct the student and parents agreed to.

And what the issue is. Schools and the local police in the UK would take bullying that happens inside and outside of the School, physical and cyber, very seriously and work with each other to deal with it. I'm not sure if there is more of a delimitation in Ireland.

Equality

In Ireland, the school can punish the student for something he did outside of school hours, regardless of whether or not he was wearing a uniform, unless their policy specifically prohibits them from doing so.

The punishment can include any punishment listed in their policy, including expulsion. Any punishment can be appealed.

The logic behind it is that if a child is selling drugs on main street after school, he might be selling drugs in school as well, and the school has a right to protect the majority from that behaviour. This would be an extreme example.

There is no requirement that the school punish a student for misbehaviour outside school, but they can do it.

Manach

But in the case of the School trying to impose punishment to non-criminal offences outside school hours, what would its core legal justification (as codes of conduct, at a guess, could be struck down as unreasonable - analogous to contract law?) come from and would such as attempt impinge on the rights of the family?

MagicSean

Manach wrote: »

But in the case of the School trying to impose punishment to non-criminal offences outside school hours, what would its core legal justification (as codes of conduct, at a guess, could be struck down as unreasonable - analogous to contract law?) come from and would such as attempt impinge on the rights of the family?

Depends on the type of conduct i suppose.

krd

Manach wrote: »

But in the case of the School trying to impose punishment to non-criminal offences outside school hours, what would its core legal justification (as codes of conduct, at a guess, could be struck down as unreasonable - analogous to contract law?) come from and would such as attempt impinge on the rights of the family?

The department of education may have an obligation to educate the child, but the school has a duty of care towards the other children and its' staff.

If a child has been caught doing something violent outside school then the school can argue they do not have the facilities to keep the other children safe.

The school has a very good argument for the need to exclude the problematic young person.

smirker

krd wrote: »

The department of education may have an obligation to educate the child, but the school has a duty of care towards the other children and its' staff.

If a child has been caught doing something violent outside school then the school can argue they do not have the facilities to keep the other children safe.

The school has a very good argument for the need to exclude the problematic young person.

What a person does outside school has nothing to do with the school. If the person goes to school and does not cause trouble why should a school be entitled to ruin the persons life? Saying that someone has a propensity to cause trouble or might cause trouble amounts to preventative exclusion. That is unconstitutional.

MadsL

smirker wrote: »

What a person does outside school has nothing to do with the school. If the person goes to school and does not cause trouble why should a school be entitled to ruin the persons life? Saying that someone has a propensity to cause trouble or might cause trouble amounts to preventative exclusion. That is unconstitutional.

An example. A girl attends an Irish speaking school. The rule is no English to be spoken whilst in uniform, travelling home on the bus she speaks English with the other girls. She can be punished because she has agreed that the code of behaviour applies to her outside of school as well as within school.

krd

smirker wrote: »

What a person does outside school has nothing to do with the school.

Oh yes it does. If a student is at a school, and they're thumping the heads off other students outside school hours, and school grounds, it is very much the business of the school.

If the person goes to school and does not cause trouble why should a school be entitled to ruin the persons life?

Oh ruin the little dears life. These little dears pick their targets in school hours, torment and terrify them, and then beat them up outside the school - and it can go on for years. Great laugh for the lads. School bullying scarred a lot of people for life. Schools owe a duty of care to the schools' children. If you're out boxing the heads off other children, then there is something wrong with you and you should be excluded.

Saying that someone has a propensity to cause trouble or might cause trouble amounts to preventative exclusion. That is unconstitutional.

Let's put it another way. A teacher receives a suspended sentence for indecently exposing themselves during the summer holidays. September comes around and they rock up back to the school. Should the school management exclude them on a preventative basis?

Our man in Havana

It is a slippery slope. A school assuming the roles of the Gardaí and judiciary.

MagicSean

Our man in Havana wrote: »

It is a slippery slope. A school assuming the roles of the Gardaí and judiciary.

Do you feel the same way about the disciplinary process in work places?

Procrastastudy

MagicSean wrote: »

Do you feel the same way about the disciplinary process in work places?

To be fair thats a very grey area if work is going after you for something you do outside it.

ScouseMouse

A couple of weeks ago I had several complaints from my customers about students in uniform hassling them outside my store, to buy cigarettes for them. I told them to get lost and they laughed at me.

I snapped them on my camera phone and emailed it to the school. No trouble since LOL.

I am sure the school can police the conduct of uniformed students.

mathepac

Our man in Havana wrote: »

It is a slippery slope. A school assuming the roles of the Gardaí and judiciary.

I disagree. Any conduct outside of school that might endanger staff, pupils or perhaps even property inside school hours or on school grounds may be sufficient for school management to exclude the student.

Any punishment beyond this would be the business of the relevant agency - social workers, Gardai, etc. if the school needs to refer on after exclusion.

Bringing the school into disrepute. They have a duty to the other students to protect the schools reputation.

JackFDub

krd wrote: »

Don't tell me...........You were one of the young people caught on camera at the Dogfight in Douglas.

Jack.....You're in deep sh1t.

You need an attorney.

At this moment in time, I would advise you to neither confirm or deny anything.....They have footage, but it's really grainy. They may say "We have proof!!"....And then you ask them to show you the "proof"....they'll show the grainy video and you can say "That doesn't even look like me".......And that may not be a complete inexactitude. You may be fully aware that it is actually you on tape - but with the poor light, graininess in the texture of the footage, it doesn't really look like you - even though you fine well know it's you (guilty as f'ing sin) but it doesn't "look" like you. If they get heavy with you say "I have sought legal advice" (which you have) "And I have been advised to shut my f'ing mouth" (which you have).

Jack...I hope you beat this rap.........We're all pulling for ya....

But don't antagonise us with the F'dub thing. Jack...or maybe is it Jill......We feel no ill will towards you Corcaigh half-Spanish beach monkeys. You know we kind of like ye And the funny way ye talk.

I was most certainly not! It was the incident that sparked my interest on the power that schools have over students while they are not in school.

krd

JackFDub wrote: »

I was most certainly not!

Jack, that's what they all say...........that's what they all say.

Jack never lay the denial on too heavy.....or get hysterical, and never say "that allegation is preposterous....".....They will know you're guilty. And then it's just a game for them to prove it.

Jack, some people, biologically and genetically, lack the predisposition for them to fit their lives within the bounds of what could be normally expected. These social deviants are a kind who cannot live by the rules - they are not happy with what every other tame blank faced small minded middle-class person has - or the life their society has to offer. They have a thirst for the perverse and exciting. They can't just settle down, cut their *****ing lawns, and ******ing die from some middle-class lifestyle disease, like arse cancer.

They can't help themselves........It would be like asking a fox not to kill chickens. They'll do it, even if they're not hungry - just to see all those blood soaked feathers spinning in the air.

Jack, you did not choose the criminal life...it choose you....It embraced you in its luxuriant folds.....And you never really had a chance to escape, did you, Jack....No, you didn't. It was too much in your nature. It was just the way you were made.

It was the incident that sparked my interest on the power that schools have over students while they are not in school.

The prospect of the gallows..........


And many a man has been saved from the gallows by concentrating his mind. Let's just say, this jam you've got yourself into is a lot tougher than a Leaving Cert honours Bog Monkey paper. Cead a dumb shove an oraiste up me arse maah shade a holley

krd

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/schoolgirls-suspended-after-fight-on-youtube-3258027.html


"A source has said that one of the parents of the girls refused to accept that it was his daughter in the video."


As Lenny Bruce said, deny it. Even if they got pictures, deny it.

Equality

It is an interesting question, regardless of whether or not the issue refers to a school or a workplace.

Regarding a school, if conduct outside the school causes trouble within the school (or has the potential to do so) the school may act. May rather than will, because many schools prefer not to act in such cases. Therefore if a parent complains that their child is being bullied on the bus home from school, the school may or may not act, depending on the school.

There is at least one case of students posting on the internet at home (about a teacher) and being punished by the school as a result.

There is also a case of students posting on the internet at home (about a fellow student) and the school refusing to act.