No cuts to core social welfare in Dec. budget

Stheno

Joan Burton today announced there will be no cuts to core social welfare in Decembers budget.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/joan-burton-promises-no-cuts-to-core-social-welfare-payments-3257647.html

BASIC social welfare payments such as the dole and pension will not be cut in the Budget, Social Protection Minister Joan Burton has pledged.

Ms Burton was speaking today a pre-Budget session with 31 lobby groups like Age Action Ireland and carer’s groups.

However, the Dublin West TD would not elaborate on what she considered “core” welfare rates, leaving her some wriggle room before the Budget.

“We are committed to maintaining the basic, core social welfare rates that we’re committed to reforming social welfare so that people who are currently unemployed and claiming social welfare, if we get them back to work, every time that happens, it saves the State at least €200 a week and then they start to pay tax,” she said.

The Programme for Government committed Fine Gael and Labour to maintaining basic social welfare rates – such as the dole and old age pension – and not raising income tax.

How much longer can they ignore this and refuse to cut them?

road_high

From the same ostrich who defends the Jobsbridge shambles. Constantly. What do we expect.

So rates remain the same for someone newly unemployed vs someone on the dole for 10 years +. What hope have we of real reform at all.

woodoo

Pensions cost 6.5 billion a year. They are one of the few things that hasn't been touched at all since the recession hit. 5% wouldn't hurt.

Good loser

Isn't it the Cabinet should make decisions like this? She's not capable for this job. Turf her out.

Stheno

woodoo wrote: »

Pensions cost 6.5 billion a year. They are one of the few things that hasn't been touched at all since the recession hit. 5% wouldn't hurt.

Yup I agree 5% all round wouldn't hurt imo.

Note though core payments is what she specified, they may introduce cuts to anciallary (think that's the right expression) payments.

It has to become less beneficial to be on welfare than working, and pensioners have to start bearing even a small amount of the austerity measures.

road_high

Good loser wrote: »

Isn't it the Cabinet should make decisions like this? She's not capable for this job. Turf her out.

ASAP. I read today she was bemoaning how tough her job is finding €0.5 billion out of like €20 billion budget. As the country runs a deficit of over €10 billion!! Yet we must maintain core payments at all costs :eek:
The woman is a joke.
Just like her colleague Howlin, not fit for office. The sooner the IMF really call the shots the better.

Scortho

She would not say what a core welfare payment is though!
So outside of basic welfare rates which are jsa, jsb and pensions is everything else on the books then?
Hopefully so!

On the matter of Moany Joan I think her and Howlin should stay! Making them cut areas that are so close to their little red hearts and basically forcing them to do things that go against their principles (what principles?) must be really stomach churning for the two of them!

ted1

They need to grow a pair. 10% across the board dole, pension, minimum wage, child benefit, etc, etc.

Scortho

ted1 wrote: »

They need to grow a pair.

Youre after planting a bad bad picture of Joan Burton in my head just before Im about to sleep!
Cheers:D

glanza__gt

i dont think pensions should ever be touched in a budget my father is on 230e a week he has worked for 45 years and lives on that a week now which has keep house going food on table and put me through college !

ted1

glanza__gt wrote: »

i dont think pensions should ever be touched in a budget my father is on 230e a week he has worked for 45 years and lives on that a week now which has keep house going food on table and put me through college !

His mortgage is paid or he is on rent allowance. A person on the dole would have more over heads they should just get the dole or less.

They also het heating allowance ,free travel, tv licence cheap elec, etc,

glanza__gt

no he owns some land which does not entitle him to any of the above apart from the free travel the rest dont cover anyhting , i see where your coming from but this is just the way if eel

ted1

If he is retired, why not sell the land?

glanza__gt

the land is surrounding my house so dont think that would be an option

stacexD

Just to point out, when my dad was on the dole he was paying interest only on the mortgage which worked out around €350 a month and the dole only gave him €11 a week which was then dropped to €4 a week towards it.
So everyones rent or mortgage isn't payed

Godge

ted1 wrote: »

If he is retired, why not sell the land?

Because he is Irish and he has an unnatural fear of someone taking his land. The Irish mentality that created the property boom has not gone away.

Scortho

glanza__gt wrote: »

i dont think pensions should ever be touched in a budget my father is on 230e a week he has worked for 45 years and lives on that a week now which has keep house going food on table and put me through college !

ted1 wrote: »

His mortgage is paid or he is on rent allowance. A person on the dole would have more over heads they should just get the dole or less.

They also het heating allowance ,free travel, tv licence cheap elec, etc,

This is the major problem with the Irish Social welfare system. Its not the basic rate of 230 a week. Its all of the other associated payments that one may be entitled to.

Scortho

ted1 wrote: »

If he is retired, why not sell the land?

glanza__gt wrote: »

the land is surrounding my house so dont think that would be an option

Godge wrote: »

Because he is Irish and he has an unnatural fear of someone taking his land. The Irish mentality that created the property boom has not gone away.

Can land not be rented or used in order to earn a return though?
That way he gets to hold onto the land (and ticks the Irish fascination) and still earn some income?

glanza__gt

another problem that annoys me with the social benifits are some people get everything some way or another when they have high earnings it makes me laugh people getting medical cards and they driving round in 12 reg cars and i no of a case where this is relevant!

Godge

Scortho wrote: »

Can land not be rented or used in order to earn a return though?
That way he gets to hold onto the land (and ticks the Irish fascination) and still earn some income?

That is why a property tax is such a useful piece of taxation.

In the case we quoted someone is sitting on a parcel of land and that land is not being used. Not a problem for him because he is getting social welfare. If the land was taxed, the equation changes. He cannot leave the land out of the system. He either has to sell or rent. That increases the activity in the economy leading to gains in income tax or VAT or whatever. A tax that can be a simulus.

BMF Plint

Scortho wrote: »

This is the major problem with the Irish Social welfare system. Its not the basic rate of 230 a week. Its all of the other associated payments that one may be entitled to.

Its Disabled people that get the household benefits not people on the dole

glanza__gt

Godge wrote: »

That is why a property tax is such a useful piece of taxation.

In the case we quoted someone is sitting on a parcel of land and that land is not being used. Not a problem for him because he is getting social welfare. If the land was taxed, the equation changes. He cannot leave the land out of the system. He either has to sell or rent. That increases the activity in the economy leading to gains in income tax or VAT or whatever. A tax that can be a simulus.

the land was been rented up until last year he has been trying to get someone else to lease it the last couple of months

Merch

Scortho wrote: »

This is the major problem with the Irish Social welfare system. Its not the basic rate of 230 a week. Its all of the other associated payments that one may be entitled to.

I dont think the basic rate is 230 a week? is it?, I think its less than that. Id love to get any of these associated payments, what are they? not everyone is entitled to much or anything at all, Like myself, I've come across some in that situation, comes from a few things, some self employment, honest (or stupidity), not sure which to call it, despite having worked a long time, there are people around me that have clearly never worked, and are according to the rules entitled to payments (by admission) and I am still unintitled??
I'd suggest the basic rate stays the same but is cut for longterm but to a certain level as many will soon become longterm that genuinely would work f it was there.
I'd like to see some significant cuts at the top too,increments,actual salary,all that, but that'd be political suicide.

glanza__gt

Merch wrote: »

I dont think the basic rate is 230 a week? is it?, I think its less than that. Id love to get any of these associated payments, what are they? not everyone is entitled to much or anything at all, Like myself, I've come across some in that situation, comes from a few things, some self employment, honest (or stupidity), not sure which to call it, despite having worked a long time, there are people around me that have clearly never worked, and are according to the rules entitled to payments (by admission) and I am still unintitled??
I'd suggest the basic rate stays the same but is cut for longterm but to a certain level as many will soon become longterm that genuinely would work f it was there.
I'd like to see some significant cuts at the top too,increments,actual salary,all that, but that'd be political suicide.

the 230 rate is for pension

ted1

Merch wrote: »

I dont think the basic rate is 230 a week? is it?, I think its less than that. Id love to get any of these associated payments, what are they? not everyone is entitled to much or anything at all, Like myself, I've come across some in that situation, comes from a few things, some self employment, honest (or stupidity), not sure which to call it, despite having worked a long time, there are people around me that have clearly never worked, and are according to the rules entitled to payments (by admission) and I am still unintitled??
I'd suggest the basic rate stays the same but is cut for longterm but to a certain level as many will soon become longterm that genuinely would work f it was there.
I'd like to see some significant cuts at the top too,increments,actual salary,all that, but that'd be political suicide.

I'd love of politicians cared about there country and made the hard decisions known they'd lose there seat and be public enemy for a week.or three. When.lenihan announced his illness I had hoped he would make the really tough and unpopular desicions.

Merch

glanza__gt wrote: »

the 230 rate is for pension

Oh, I see, my mistake, well i didnt realise it was that much.
Id still happily see politicians pensions slashed and abolished before they try and explain the benefits of savings on state pension.
Its possible all pension payments and entitlements could be taken into account.
At that age, if someone has limited other means its going to be tough.

it does seem a bit foolish to not sell off land if you are struggling though, depends where it is though or if someone can or would buy it maybe?? If i was sitting on land it'd be something I'd have to do.

glanza__gt

i totally agree high earners still getting child benifit even sure that means nothing to them when it could mean alot so others, they should be taxed highly aswell as they can afford it

guinnessdrinker

On a basic level it would be devastating to those in receipt of SW to face another cut while the cost of goods and services continue to rise.

ted1

Merch wrote: »

Oh, I see, my mistake, well i didnt realise it was that much.
Id still happily see politicians pensions slashed and abolished before they try and explain the benefits of savings on state pension.

They should only be allowed claim.one state pension. Working for the state is the same as a company a higher ranking us like a promotion. With the promotion they should only get the pension related to.the position at time of retirement. Also who in hell gets a full pension after 2 years in a position and before the age of 65 , don't forget the adjustment to lower pay bonus.

not yet

ted1 wrote: »

They need to grow a pair. 10% across the board dole, pension, minimum wage, child benefit, etc, etc.

Please,please,please explain to me how cutting minimum wage will cut the gap between GOVERNMENT spending.

In my experience People calling for cuts to minimum wage are usually employers with an agenda.

ted1

not yet wrote: »

ted1 wrote: »

They need to grow a pair. 10% across the board dole, pension, minimum wage, child benefit, etc, etc.

Please,please,please explain to me how cutting minimum wage will cut the gap between GOVERNMENT spending.

In my experience People calling for cuts to minimum wage are usually employers with an agenda.

Because the minimum wage sets a base pay. A graduate starts at a mulitple of the minimum wage, by lowering the minimum wage, there graduate wage will be lower and so on.

The discount shops market is the person on minimum wage. If there customer has less money, they'll lower there wage to meet the customers expenditure.

The landlord who rents a unit that is rented by a person on minimum wage wil have to lower his rent or face having an empty unit and so on.



The fact is having such a high minimum wage raises prices all the way up the scales.

The net effect is that costs will come down. The lowering of welfare won't have an effect on the receipents as they'll still get the same items. Government spending will be down. The countries competitiveness will br up, jobs Will.be created/saved.

Head The Wall

not yet wrote: »

Please,please,please explain to me how cutting minimum wage will cut the gap between GOVERNMENT spending.

Welfare will also have to be reduced in line with the minimum wage as well as rent allowance etc, more people may be employed which will be less on the dole. That is how govt spending will be reduced by a minimum wage reduction.

not yet wrote: »

In my experience People calling for cuts to minimum wage are usually employers with an agenda.

In my experience people looking to retain the minimum wage are usually in a PS union and want to keep wages at a high rate so they can justify their own exorbitant rate.

kodoherty93

It's ridculous that there is only one state pension in ireland. That if you are earning €8.65(minimum wage) mostly likely you'll pay a tiny amount of prsi but they still get the same pension as a person who earns €400 a hour and pays a ridculous amount of prsi.

If they haven't cut core payments I hope they have got rid of most the social welfare bonus like free fuel allowances ( they don't even get this in freezing Poland) free electricity and tv licences.

Also does every oap deserve free travel? Hardly make they contribute to the huge cie deficit that's being picked up by people who actually pay tax

kneemos

BMF Plint wrote: »

Its Disabled people that get the household benefits not people on the dole

If your homeless or can't live at home for some reason you can get rent allowance where you make a minimum payment of thirty Euros.It's not an automatic entitlement.

murphaph

kodoherty93 wrote: »

It's ridculous that there is only one state pension in ireland. That if you are earning €8.65(minimum wage) mostly likely you'll pay a tiny amount of prsi but they still get the same pension as a person who earns €400 a hour and pays a ridculous amount of prsi.

In Germany you pay a %age of your income towards your state pension, just like in Ireland. Unlike in Ireland, the pension you receive is related to what you paid in.

The entire pensions pyramid in Ireland needs major reform. I worked 11 or so years full time before leaving Ireland (620 PRSI reckonable contributions). I am currently entitled to €92 PW pension (actually over generous given my early years at work I would have paid graduate levels of tax). A person coming to Ireland for the first time at age 55 can make FEWER contributions than me (520) and receive €230 a week for them, Crazy set up which penalises early starters into the job market and rewards late starters!

kodoherty93 wrote: »

If they haven't cut core payments I hope they have got rid of most the social welfare bonus like free fuel allowances ( they don't even get this in freezing Poland) free electricity and tv licences.

Agreed, all this stuff should be up for the chop if they are insistent on leaving core rates alone (there is some merit in this-it would make the whole set up more transparent at least).

kodoherty93 wrote: »

Also does every oap deserve free travel? Hardly make they contribute to the huge cie deficit that's being picked up by people who actually pay tax

Again, here in Germany OAPs get no free travel. They can usually avail of regional or local tickets at reduced prices (in Berlin it costs app €50 a month however, compared to €70 normally, so not a huge discount). There is no such thing as a free travel pass in any German city and no free travel nationally.

We can't make money out of thin air: all these "entitlements" are being paid for out of our taxes and borrowed money which we expect future generations to pay back, with interest!

woodoo

kodoherty93 wrote: »

If they haven't cut core payments I hope they have got rid of most the social welfare bonus like free fuel allowances ( they don't even get this in freezing Poland) free electricity and tv licences.

Can you imagine the uproar from the lefties... How can they take the heat from the poor etc etc.

Idbatterim

the poor pensioners! most of them sitting on assets i.e their properties worth few hundred thousand, if they are that badly off, sell them! Ive advocated a sale and lease back scheme to the state or some other fund for quite some time now! at least with most dole recipients etc, the money is being recirculated around the economy for most part, nowhere near as much with pensioners i reckon...

sock puppet

kodoherty93 wrote: »

It's ridculous that there is only one state pension in ireland. That if you are earning €8.65(minimum wage) mostly likely you'll pay a tiny amount of prsi but they still get the same pension as a person who earns €400 a hour and pays a ridculous amount of prsi.

I'd be against this. The state pension should be the minimum a person needs to live on. If we change it to operate like a DB plan it'd cost more, and PRSI rates are too low to cover our obligations as it is.

thebman

Gilmore on TWIP just now saying Child Benefit is part of Core Welfare.

Stheno

sock puppet wrote: »

I'd be against this. The state pension should be the minimum a person needs to live on. If we change it to operate like a DB plan it'd cost more, and PRSI rates are too low to cover our obligations as it is.

PRSI now covers nothing compared to a few years ago, dental and optical benefits are now almost nil, illness benefit is there, but I don't know many who'd avail of it to be honest.

thebman wrote: »

Gilmore on TWIP just now saying Child Benefit is part of Core Welfare.

Really? Core welfare to me is what any taxpayer is entitled to.

thebman

Stheno wrote: »

Really? Core welfare to me is what any taxpayer is entitled to.

Yes it was on loop on RTE News Now again just now.

Bullseye1

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

On a basic level it would be devastating to those in receipt of SW to face another cut while the cost of goods and services continue to rise.

People do not doubt it is tough for some people. What seems to get lost in this discussion is that it is tough for those still working, struggling to earn a living with equal rise in living expensense.

Sleepy

So should those of us fortunate enough to still have jobs get out the Vaseline then?

Looks like the tail is wagging the dog.

donalg1

Only saw this earlier today, cant believe the standard rates wont be cut, another glorious cop out by the Govt. Sure its grand though let all the working middle income earners pay for everything I mean they are anyway so what difference does it make. Sick of this place.