Older and wiser in Ireland 2012

blueknight

What kind of country do we want to grow old in? This is a question that will affect most of us sooner or later. I think it is a good thing that we as a species are living longer, I would consider this progress. It is our duty as human beings to push out the boundaries and advance. Not only to enjoy our grandchildren grown up, by also our great-grandchildren. I saw lovely cards for sale in a shop especially for grandchildren, well I thought when commerce has caught up by recognizing there might be a demand for such a card it dispelled all doubt that we are living much longer. Now that this has been accepted, we have to consider the question: What kind of Ireland we would like to enjoy in our latter or twilight days?

The Corinthian

I considered this a few years ago and came to the following conclusions:

Ireland is a good place to be young, not so much old. Vibrant social life and a good place to cut your teeth in your chosen career at the start (or at least was during the boom years). However, socially things are limited once you get beyond a certain age, such is the over-reliance on the pub culture and while there are plenty of companies looking to hire young (and cheap) employees, there are fewer opportunities for advancement into, in particular, senior roles than you'll find in other countries.

Standard of Living is poor. We still have housing standards that are considered third World by most continental Europeans. Cost of living is high also, especially when compared with salary levels. I cannot underline enough how worse off the standard of living is in Ireland to most of Western Europe.

Forget being taken care of in old age. Ireland has a disastrous pension system. You can work your entire life and all that will gain you is exactly the same as someone who never worked a single day - the only difference is you're not means tested (which means you won't get penalized for having a private pension, which you have to pay for yourself).

And even to get the full contributory state pension, of course, you have to qualify - which of course it is very easy not to. Work abroad for a few years, work for yourself, start work when slightly older or a dozen other scenarios will see you screwed in that regard.

Health care is scary. Let's face it, the Irish health care system is a disaster and that's one of the reasons that many Irish people will go abroad nowadays. Any talent has emigrated (leading to a situation that we need to import medical staff from the developing World). That's before we consider the pure incompetence of those who do represent our medical establishment, as exemplified by kidney fiasco of a few years ago - incidentally, nothing happened to the consultant responsible for this.

Less said about dentistry, the better.

Not a good place to be a man. If you're unlucky to be a man in Ireland, you're also going to have to get increasingly used to being a second class citizen. Other than having no parental rights (soon marital status will not matter in this regard any more), and having divorce laws that are particularly biased and severe to men, little is done about men's health and few if any resources are put into male related illnesses (physical or mental). If you end up on the street too, you're on your own as HSE policy already to simply not bother finding housing for men.

Infrastructure is a joke. Unless you have a car (presuming you'll be able to afford one, you'll have to use public transport. And while this was never very good to begin with, it's managed to get even worse. So don't count on getting out of your granny-flat very often, unless you have relatives willing to drive you around.

Political Uncertainty. Crisis aside, there is the big elephant in the middle of the room, which is the Northern Ireland question. Unification may not be on the cards for a few years, but we could well get there and the possibility of Sinn Fein (with whatever anti-EU, pro-Marxist policies they may have) getting into government is much closer still.

And if unification occurs, shall we all rejoice? Whenever I've raised the possibility that the unionists may not be so happy, a republican has invariably suggested that it's their tough luck. Grand so, but I'd rather not experience a civil war in my old age.

The weather. While permanently cold, overcast and damp, this is the least of my worries if the above were dealt with.

But they won't be and we all know that. And so, a few years ago, after carefully assessing the above, I left Ireland.

Procrastastudy

Corinthian, I don't always agree with your posts but normally find them very well reasoned. However there are a couple of points here I just had to take issue with.

The Corinthian wrote: »

Health care is scary. Let's face it, the Irish health care system is a disaster and that's one of the reasons that many Irish people will go abroad nowadays. Any talent has emigrated (leading to a situation that we need to import medical staff from the developing World). That's before we consider the pure incompetence of those who do represent our medical establishment, as exemplified by kidney fiasco of a few years ago - incidentally, nothing happened to the consultant responsible for this.

Less said about dentistry, the better.

A little unfair. Health-care could certainly be better but in comparison to the UK and US we're not 'scary'. Anecdotally anyone I've ever known who has needed emergency treatment has found the health system quite good. Personally I have had occasion to use it with mixed results. but I'm still up and about!

The Corinthian wrote: »

Not a good place to be a man. If you're unlucky to be a man in Ireland, you're also going to have to get increasingly used to being a second class citizen. Other than having no parental rights (soon marital status will not matter in this regard any more), and having divorce laws that are particularly biased and severe to men, little is done about men's health and few if any resources are put into male related illnesses (physical or mental). If you end up on the street too, you're on your own as HSE policy already to simply not bother finding housing for men.

Some truth here but also some hogwash. Divorce laws are still in there infancy and the idea is to ensure both sides are provided for.

The Corinthian wrote: »

Infrastructure is a joke. Unless you have a car (presuming you'll be able to afford one, you'll have to use public transport. And while this was never very good to begin with, it's managed to get even worse. So don't count on getting out of your granny-flat very often, unless you have relatives willing to drive you around.

I cant speak for outside of Dublin but inside of Dublin its a pain in the arse but hardly a reason to stay in doors!

The Corinthian wrote: »

Political Uncertainty. Crisis aside, there is the big elephant in the middle of the room, which is the Northern Ireland question. Unification may not be on the cards for a few years, but we could well get there and the possibility of Sinn Fein (with whatever anti-EU, pro-Marxist policies they may have) getting into government is much closer still.

And if unification occurs, shall we all rejoice? Whenever I've raised the possibility that the unionists may not be so happy, a republican has invariably suggested that it's their tough luck. Grand so, but I'd rather not experience a civil war in my old age.

Honestly everything else is a matter of opinion to a certain extent - but the above passage is just badly thought out. How exactly are we going to face a civil war?

The Corinthian

Procrastastudy wrote: »

A little unfair. Health-care could certainly be better but in comparison to the UK and US we're not 'scary'. Anecdotally anyone I've ever known who has needed emergency treatment has found the health system quite good. Personally I have had occasion to use it with mixed results. but I'm still up and about!

I've experience of the health systems in Italy, France, Germany, Switzerland and Hungary. All are significantly better than Ireland's. And this is hardly my opinion alone, given the increase in medical tourism from Ireland over the last few years.

Some truth here but also some hogwash. Divorce laws are still in there infancy and the idea is to ensure both sides are provided for.

It's not in its infancy realistically after almost 20 years and certainly there is presently not so much as a hint of interest in reforming it. As to 'ensuring that both sides are provided for', this is demonstrably untrue given that in contested divorces, the bias is such that the man will lose out 99% of the time.

Of course you can avoid this by simply not getting married in the first place, except you can't really any more, thanks to the cohabitation bill that automatically applies the same liabilities as divorce and has no absolutely binding opt-out clause.

Less said about fathers rights, or lack thereof, the better. There is guardianship, of course (although the rights is confers are largely ignored), yet even this looks as it if will be demoted to a consultative right, rather an an absolute one if proposed 'reforms' are introduced.

I could point out both existing and proposed examples of anti-male discrimination in Ireland ad nauseam, or compare it to the marginally better, and in some case much better, legislation of laws in many other countries (where access is actually enforced, prenups recognised or claims on assets in a divorce are only those accrued during the marriage). This is not to say that Ireland is the worst offender, but comparatively, you're better off in most other western countries, if you're a man, at this stage.

I cant speak for outside of Dublin but inside of Dublin its a pain in the arse but hardly a reason to stay in doors!

As a pensioner, with ailing eyesight who can no longer drive, you may not have a choice, was my point.

Honestly everything else is a matter of opinion to a certain extent - but the above passage is just badly thought out. How exactly are we going to face a civil war?

I'm not suggesting that we definitely shall, but I'm not exactly encouraged by some of the attitudes either. On the nationalist side, I've repeatedly seen an attitude of "if we get a 51% vote, then the prods can suck on it" attitude, with little or no interest in compromise of any sort. So consider that scenario; a referendum for unification passed by a few percentage points and what would likely follow. Not terribly encouraging and unfortunately a possible scenario as things stand.

None of this implies that the grass is greener everywhere else. There are pluses and minuses in every country and looking at how things are going in the long term there are countries that are likely going to be even worse off than Ireland (UK comes to mind). However, if asked 'what kind of country do we want to grow old in', I would have to be honest and say that Ireland is not high on the list, to say the least.

Procrastastudy

Agreed the Health systems in Mainland Europe are light years ahead.

On divorce I'll take your points at face value - I don't know enough to argue. Certainly wouldn't be the first time guys have gotten a raw deal.

As for reunification. I can't see it becoming an issue. Articles 2 and 3 were changed by referendum and drastically toned down the claim to NI. I don't see it ever getting to the point of a civil war but then I don't suppose many people foresaw WWI.

The Corinthian

Procrastastudy wrote: »

On divorce I'll take your points at face value - I don't know enough to argue. Certainly wouldn't be the first time guys have gotten a raw deal.

Divorce is pretty punitive to men in Ireland, of course this does not mean that it is not punitive, if not more-so, to men in many other Western counties.

Nonetheless, I'm pointing at the larger picture where it comes to gender-biased legislation, politics and enforcement, which is overall much more anti-male in Ireland and likely to become more so - if moves to do things such as abolish custodial sentences for women, impose quotas in politics and business and remove the actual rights associated with guardianship for non-custodial parents (i.e. men) are introduced.

Overall, you don't have to move to Saudi Arabia to have a better deal as a man. Most western counties, at this stage, will afford you more rights (and enforcement of those rights) than Ireland.

As for reunification. I can't see it becoming an issue. Articles 2 and 3 were changed by referendum and drastically toned down the claim to NI. I don't see it ever getting to the point of a civil war but then I don't suppose many people foresaw WWI.

Perhaps suggesting that we will end up with a civil war is jumping the gun. Nonetheless, my analysis is that you have two groups up north; one opposed to it, the other in favour and likely to reach a majority before long.

In that event, if a referendum passed unification by a small enough margin, you'll be imposing unification on a pretty sizeable minority (that vehemently opposes it) and, unfortunately from what I can make out, the nationalist majority appears to have a rather triumphalist and dogmatic attitude towards this.

Hardly the recipe for peaceful coexistence, IMHO - all before one considers the economic implications for the Island.