Altercation with driver - want to check rules of road

sarkozy

I was cycling my usual route to work where I end up cycling down Lower Baggot St. in order to turn on to Baggot Court, through an archway on the opposite side of Lower Baggot St.

To get a picture, click here: http://goo.gl/maps/IFAjF

This morning, I cycled down Merrion Row, as usual, and continued on through the lights down Lwr. Baggot St. to make the turn right. It's important to mention that at this point, Baggot St. becomes two lanes each way. Therefore, I got into the correct lane and stayed to the left-hand side of the inner lane. As I was about to signal right in order to take the turn right across the far side of the road and through the archway on the other side.

Before getting the chance to do this, a driver in a black Mercedes beeped their horn, trying to speed past me. I was nearly at my turn and did so, and as the black Mercedes passed by, a taxi driver sped by yelling something to me.

I should also add, a bus had stopped at the bus stop ahead, requiring me to go around it had I been in the outer lane.

What I'm not clear about is: are cyclists required to be on the far left at all times? This would be problematic then having to make right-hand turns because it would mean crossing into right-hand lanes dangerously late?

I want clarity on this so the next time, I can tell them to **** off and cycle even more defensively.

Surveyor11

Surely a fib, a taxi driver that knows the rules of the road? All joking aside, looks like you were in the right (literally) - you can move right, signal and turn right when its safe to do so. Next time some caveman tries to run you off the road, get his number and give the Gardai a call.

Edit - If you weren't signalling, then I suppose the driver behind had no idea of your intentions.

buddy22

I think that you were in the wrong there I'm afraid. You should have been at the right hand side of the right lane.

By being at the left hand side of the right lane you were effectively in the centre of the road blocking traffic approaching from the rear.

sarkozy

Hmm, two conflicting views! Never have I known it being correct to be on the right-hand side of a right-hand lane. If another car had been turning right, I would have been on the inside of that one, and that's not the correct position, and dangerous, too, surely?

lennymc

When turning right, get into the left side of the right-turning lane, look behind and give the proper signal before you move out and ensure traffic in that lane is not going straight ahead. On steep hills or busy roads, pull into the left-hand side of the road and wait until there is a break in traffic in both directions to let you make the turn safely.

from rsa rules of the road here

sounds to me like you were in the right road position. Left hand side of the lane you were in.

galwaycyclist

buddy22 wrote: »

I think that you were in the wrong there I'm afraid. You should have been at the right hand side of the right lane.

By being at the left hand side of the right lane you were effectively in the centre of the road blocking traffic approaching from the rear.

This is incorrect. Traffic, which includes cyclists, already in possession of the road has priority over following traffic. There is no obligation to allow someone overtake just because they happen to be in a car.

If turning right you are entitled to hold your position until you have a suitable gap in the oncoming traffic stream.

Surveyor11

In your case, you're approaching a bus ahead, but turning right across two lanes of traffic. I would tend to stay out right approaching the bus, indicating as necessary, then when it's clear move to the right lane - signalling right all the time. Then drivers know what you're at. But cycle defensively - plenty of drivers will try and squeeze you against the kerb. Cyclists don't always have to stay left. To prevent a driver turning right on your inside, I would tend to take the centre of the right hand turning lane, then come back in left as I round the corner.

Chips Lovell

You should be on the left hand side of the lane. If you're turning right on a two lane road, you need to be on the left hand side of the right hand lane.

galwaycyclist

lennymc wrote: »

from rsa rules of the road here

sounds to me like you were in the right road position. Left hand side of the lane you were in.

The RSAs "advice" for cyclists on this matter has no basis in law. You are entitled to use as much of the lane as you wish. If keeping left increases your exposure to traffic passing on your inside or might encourage unsafe passing by the drivers in your lane then dont keep left.

seamus

buddy22 wrote: »

I think that you were in the wrong there I'm afraid. You should have been at the right hand side of the right lane.

It's recommended practice when waiting to turn right, to take up a position in the right-hand side of your lane, however there is no requirement to do so, especially not while you're still moving.

sarkozy

Surveyor11 wrote: »

Next time some caveman tries to run you off the road, get his number and give the Gardai a call.

What could the Gards do?

seamus wrote:

It's recommended practice when waiting to turn right, to take up a position in the right-hand side of your lane, however there is no requirement to do so, especially not while you're still moving.

This is correct practice for all vehicles, e.g. if turning right in-lane or at a stop line, you move to the right in order to allow left-turning traffic pass. However, in my instance, it would be correct to be on the left as a car may also be turning left and then I would be in the correct position to move off when the car also does.

Victor

I would occupy the centre of the right hand lane. It stops people trying to overtake on your right, allows them pass safely on the left and most drivers are loathe to run you over from behind.

sarkozy

Victor wrote: »

I would occupy the centre of the right hand lane. It stops people trying to overtake on your right, allows them pass safely on the left and most drivers are loathe to run you over from behind.

Actually, this is usually what I do. This time, for some reason, I was between centre and the left-hand line. Sure, last week, I was doing exactly the same thing and a bus beeped me and I was central, signalling, etc.

galwaycyclist

sarkozy wrote: »

Actually, this is usually what I do. This time, for some reason, I was between centre and the left-hand line. Sure, last week, I was doing exactly the same thing and a bus beeped me and I was central, signalling, etc.

Likely the driver of the bus has little knowledge of road traffic law or was simply trying to intimidate you.

seamus

sarkozy wrote: »

However, in my instance, it would be correct to be on the left as a car may also be turning left and then I would be in the correct position to move off when the car also does.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this. In this instance you are turning right, you're not stopped at a stop sign and there would be no vehicle in front of you turning left?

Lumen

I'd focus not on the legal position, but on how to avoid the conflict in the first place.

I do that exact turn every day (for years) and have never had a problem.

I get in the middle of the right hand lane before the lights, indicate right (arm horizontal) just after the lights, then wave my right arm up and down (a sort of hybrid between a turn signal and stop signal) before braking for the turn.

I think I generally occupy the right hand part of the lane, which gives a hint as to my intent, but I think all the crazed arm waving succeeds in confusing the traffic behind into submission.

sarkozy

@Lumen: I'll try that in future.

steve9859

In your situation I would have been in the centre of the right hand lane to make sure no-one tried to pass me on the right as I'm about to turn.

Tombo2001

galwaycyclist wrote: »

The RSAs "advice" for cyclists on this matter has no basis in law. You are entitled to use as much of the lane as you wish. If keeping left increases your exposure to traffic passing on your inside or might encourage unsafe passing by the drivers in your lane then dont keep left.

What does have basis in law then?

That if you are in front of a car in a particular lane, then whether you are in left right or middle of lane, they are not entitled to overtake once you have indicated right?

What if you hadnt already indicated right?

I find this a little academic......wouldnt be much consolation to be legally right if you get whacked.

galwaycyclist

Tombo2001 wrote: »

What does have basis in law then?

That if you are in front of a car in a particular lane, then whether you are in left right or middle of lane, they are not entitled to overtake once you have indicated right?

What if you hadnt already indicated right?

I find this a little academic......wouldnt be much consolation to be legally right if you get whacked.

In Irish Traffic law a pedal cycle is a vehicle and a cyclist is a driver there are definitions given in the 1961 Road Traffic Act that are still referenced by succeeding legislation. The general traffic regulations draw no distinction between pedal cyclists and other drivers with regard to the manouevre we are discussing.


Not sure what you are asking? Do you mean overtake on the right or passing on the left? You are not entitled to do either if you don't have space to complete the manouevre safely.

A cyclist is not obliged to let a following motorist do anything that might endanger their own personal safety or their property.

Tombo2001

galwaycyclist wrote: »

In Irish Traffic law a pedal cycle is a vehicle and a cyclist is a driver there are definitions given in the 1961 Road Traffic Act that are still referenced by succeeding legislation. The general traffic regulations draw no distinction between pedal cyclists and other drivers with regard to the manouevre we are discussing.


Not sure what you are asking? Do you mean overtake on the right or passing on the left? You are not entitled to do either if you don't have space to complete the manouevre safely.

A cyclist is not obliged to let a following motorist do anything that might endanger their own personal safety or their property.

I meant if you are turning right, in a road where there are two lanes of traffic on either side, or if there are two lanes in the direction you are coming from.

My own experience is that if I am turning right in this situation, that the cars behind me do not stop. They do not indicate left into the left hand lane. When I indicate right and then stop, while waiting for a break in the oncoming traffic, I find consistently that the traffic behind me will overtake me on the LHS leaving a two foot gap between me and their car. Its extremely dangerous, the drivers are breaking the traffic rules in doing so, but thats not much comfort to me when they are whizzing past at 50k an hour.

Hence my comment, it doesnt matter much what the traffic laws are if drivers (and cyclists!) are not following them......or, it wouldnt be much comfort to me if I got hit to know that the driver broke the traffic laws.

Spook_ie

sarkozy wrote: »

I was cycling my usual route to work where I end up cycling down Lower Baggot St. in order to turn on to Baggot Court, through an archway on the opposite side of Lower Baggot St.

To get a picture, click here: http://goo.gl/maps/IFAjF

This morning, I cycled down Merrion Row, as usual, and continued on through the lights down Lwr. Baggot St. to make the turn right. It's important to mention that at this point, Baggot St. becomes two lanes each way. Therefore, I got into the correct lane and stayed to the left-hand side of the inner lane. As I was about to signal right in order to take the turn right across the far side of the road and through the archway on the other side.

Before getting the chance to do this, a driver in a black Mercedes beeped their horn, trying to speed past me. I was nearly at my turn and did so, and as the black Mercedes passed by, a taxi driver sped by yelling something to me.

I should also add, a bus had stopped at the bus stop ahead, requiring me to go around it had I been in the outer lane.

What I'm not clear about is: are cyclists required to be on the far left at all times? This would be problematic then having to make right-hand turns because it would mean crossing into right-hand lanes dangerously late?

I want clarity on this so the next time, I can tell them to **** off and cycle even more defensively.

To my mind the situation (given the bolded bit ) would have looked like an undecided cyclist being in the middle of the road, however the driver squeezing past would've been in my view just as wrong. One thing I'm not clear on though are the Mercedes and the Taxi driver one and the same? but my advice....... be decisive, be clear, be careful!


Edit from the RSA

When turning right, get into the left side of the right-turning lane, look behind and give the proper signal before you move out and ensure traffic in that lane is not going straight ahead. On steep hills or busy roads, pull into the left-hand side of the road and wait until there is a break in traffic in both directions to let you make the turn safely.

2nd Edit

Looking at the street view, surely it would have made more sense to approach the junction in the RHS of the OS lane and take up a position in the median break where you would have been protected from traffic by the central median?

Just how do you put a street view image up, so I can easier show where I mean?

07Lapierre

steve9859 wrote: »

In your situation I would have been in the centre of the right hand lane to make sure no-one tried to pass me on the right as I'm about to turn.

+1, Just as you would if you were a motorist.

Spook_ie

sarkozy wrote: »

Hmm, two conflicting views! Never have I known it being correct to be on the right-hand side of a right-hand lane. If another car had been turning right, I would have been on the inside of that one, and that's not the correct position, and dangerous, too, surely?

Only if as a cyclist you were jumping the queue instead of waiting for the vehicle ahead of you to complete his right turn, think as a car and queue behind when required rather than at the side

monkeybutter

Do what a motorbike would do

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcwS2sFVT5w

Take ownership of the junction and cut out chances of over taking. And never under/overtake someone who is turning yourself. I don't undertake at junctions at all even if they aren't indicating (there's nothing you can do about someone overtaking you though) as it's a good way to get crushed, always assume they are going to turn.

Prepare for the turn when it is safest to do so, I'd typically move out well in advance of the turn when there is a gap in traffic to do so, rather than just before, as you can do it at traffic pace.

In the situation where there is a central barrier like on baggot street, keeping right is the best option once you have crossed from the other lane giving cars a chance to undertake more easily, as it's safe to do so.

bambergbike

Spook_ie wrote: »

To my mind the situation (given the bolded bit [As I was about to signal right] would have looked like an undecided cyclist being in the middle of the road

Why on earth would an "undecided cyclist" (= one who doesn't quite know where he/she is going?) go and wobble around in the middle of a busy road to think about what to do next? I have often been an undecided cyclist, and I have usually found somewhere better to go and have a think, a look at the map, and a flapjack.

If I see cyclists adopting a position on the road that isn't their normal default road position, I would assume (a) they are doing it for a sensible reason, and (b) they haven't (yet) been able to signal their intentions explicitly (probably obvious enough from their road positioning anyway) because they have some good reason for covering their brakes with both hands, or keeping both hands on the handlebars.

Arthurdaly

It seems pretty clear cut to me and I'm not too concerned from a legal point of view. My motives firstly are my own safey and secondly the road user behind me.

In your particular circumstance I would have been planted firmly in the middle of the right hand lane having indicating and making my motives know to oncoming traffic. I have adopted this attitude to most roundabouts/junctions and have had maybe 3 beeps in thousands of commutes.
Your safety should be your priority and languishing between lanes puts you at risk and exposes you agressive drivers.

Most drivers are reasonable and when I am driving i would prefer to see a guy moving promtly along the middle of the road rather than pre-empting what some guy a bike is going to do next.

seve65

Do what is safest, exact legal position and knowing you are in the right is a secondary concern. Incidentally I failed my driving test (a long time ago) for not being positioned in the right hand side of a lane ready to turn right. Makes me groan when i see so many motorists hugging the kerb on the left when they are about to turn right.

www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/junctions-roundabouts/junctions.html

Spook_ie

bambergbike wrote: »

Why on earth would an "undecided cyclist" (= one who doesn't quite know where he/she is going?) go and wobble around in the middle of a busy road to think about what to do next? I have often been an undecided cyclist, and I have usually found somewhere better to go and have a think, a look at the map, and a flapjack.

If I see cyclists adopting a position on the road that isn't their normal default road position, I would assume (a) they are doing it for a sensible reason, and (b) they haven't (yet) been able to signal their intentions explicitly (probably obvious enough from their road positioning anyway) because they have some good reason for covering their brakes with both hands, or keeping both hands on the handlebars.

Somebody cycling along in the left hand side of the OS lane would look exactly like that, be DECISIVE, be CLEAR, be SAFE, description from the OP sounds nothing like it