Closure and Consolidation of Councils

Sleepy

Heard something on Today FM this morning about proposals to merge the city and county Councils in Galway & Limerick along with a closure of the town councils around the country but can't find anything about it on-line.

Anyone have details on this? Any time-line or details of whether the redundant workers will be let go or re-assigned etc?

While the above would only be a small start in terms of the consolidation necessary in the Local Government sector, it's clearly the easy political sell (not leaving any county without a council) and I'd cautiously welcome it as long as we're not looking at a HSE style merger.

Bits_n_Bobs

Sleepy wrote: »

....and I'd cautiously welcome it as long as we're not looking at a HSE style merger.

Without some form of involuntary and targeted redundancies which the CPA forbids I find it impossible to envisage any sort of consolidation leading to anything other than HSE style outcome

Sleepy

While I'd agree in principle that redundancies should be involuntary and targeted, a well-managed voluntary scheme could get close to the desired result.

A lot of the deadweight you'd want rid of in the local authorities would be in the over 50's age group and working in the positions that would be made redundant by a merger (accounts, rates, water, etc. - basically admin positions). The area covered by the merged councils won't be any smaller than that covered by the existing councils so the workers out on the ground (maintenance staff, traffic/litter/dog wardens etc.) won't yield all that much in savings.

There should be some good savings in software licensing, freeing up of one of their buildings, maintenance etc. though.

Lumbo

From what I've heard on the grapvine, all the town councils will be abolished. Galway and Waterford City/County Councils will be merged.

Head The Wall

I can't envisage anything other than it happening on paper the same way the HSE was done. This govt hasn't the balls to do it properly. Have they ever instigated compulsory redundancy?

krd

Lumbo wrote: »

From what I've heard on the grapvine, all the town councils will be abolished. Galway and Waterford City/County Councils will be merged.

As far as I am aware, it's Waterford and Limerick being merged - which is surprising given the distance between the two.

Head The Wall

I think you are picking this up wrong. Limerick city and county councils will merge, like wise with Waterford. Galway etc. Different city councils will not be merging with each other

Godge

There used to be a VEC for every county and city council. They cut the number of VECs to 16. Why can't they cut the number of councils in the same way.

MadsL

Why would any council worker take voluntary redundancy if compulsory redundancies are banned under the CPA? Would need to be a hefty payout.

Gumbo

MadsL wrote: »

Why would any council worker take voluntary redundancy if compulsory redundancies are banned under the CPA? Would need to be a hefty payout.

I guess the same could be said for any person in employment. Different positions etc. might suit somebody that wants to go travelling or try another profession...

Sleepy

Both my parents have taken voluntary packages from Bank of Ireland this year. If you're in your mid 50's or older, it can be quite appealing even without a package as generous as Public Sector workers get offered on their voluntary schemes.

I'd know an Assistant Director in one of the councils who took the voluntary package he was offered the year before last.

Gumbo

Sleepy wrote: »

Both my parents have taken voluntary packages from Bank of Ireland this year. If you're in your mid 50's or older, it can be quite appealing even without a package as generous as Public Sector workers get offered on their voluntary schemes.

Funny you try to have a little dig at PS workers again, shows your true colours

Also, i'd say you mother and father done quite well with their redundancy as the Government had to step in to reduce BOI's offers to be more in line with Public Service schemes. So your little snipe has no merit.

The Government wanted reduced redundancy payments to bring them into line with similar schemes in the public service.

Staff are discussing the terms of the schemes at a conference of the Irish Bank Officials' Association in Galway today.

Instead of the original four weeks’ pay for every year of service plus statutory redundancy, staff are being offered three weeks’ pay plus statutory

The Irish Bank Officials Association say that it has been agreed to allow for three weeks pay per year of service plus statutory entitlements.

Sleepy

Mea Culpa, I didn't have any idea what the packages involved, assumed that a toothless union like the IBOA wouldn't be able to negotiate anything close to what you'd expect from the PS unions who'd have a much higher membership rate.

Gumbo

Sleepy wrote: »

Mea Culpa, I didn't have any idea what the packages involved, assumed that a toothless union like the IBOA wouldn't be able to negotiate anything close to what you'd expect from the PS unions who'd have a much higher membership rate.

The Bank unions and indeed the banks themselves agreed on more, but the government said no!

They would of got more only for the government. My mate applied for it but was turned down.

Anyway, hope they are enjoying retirement.

Sleepy

Ah, don't think either of them will be retiring yet, career changes are the preferred option right now. Both were just sick of the institution: Irish banks are very, very different organisations than they'd have joined back in the 70's! They'd both have been very vocal about the lending practices during the boom being crazy but neither were in positions where they could do anything more than warn us kids that anything above 3 times your salary was an insane amount to get a mortgage for.

sceptre

There's been some criticism of the amalgamations (call them abolitions, consolidations, amalgamations, all the same really) of the county and city councils on the basis that good policy for the rural areas is not necessarily good policy for the urban areas. There's some merit to this.

In Limerick, it has the small bonus of solving a lot of the issues with regard to the city having expanded into the Limerick county council administered area. In the past decade or two, especially, Limerick dwellers have become familiar with the concept of the doughnut effect. City centre's largely dead during the day while the satellite shopping centres are, comparatively speaking, doing a roaring trade. It's not exactly Flint, Michigan but it's not a million stages away. It still doesn't solve the issue of the city having expanded into county Clare and residents of those areas may even be more resistant to becoming part of a county Limerick administration rather than a Limerick city one.

The touted savings aren't going to be as significant as they might be when staff are transferred from the old authorities to the new one. The CPA prevents targeted redundancies, as Bits_n_Bobs said.

I'd prefer to see proper regional authorities, each centred around a designated large urban centre (Cork, Limerick, Galway, Sligo, Waterford, a few other appropriate places, I'm too lazy right now to look at a map), with a separate setup for Dublin. A limited number of regional authorities, each with a proper development plan. But that would move so many boundaries that half the country would get pissy about it so I can't see that happening any time soon.

Wise Old Elf

Nail on the head re: limerick there sceptre. Fudged the clare issue a bit but amalgamation should help the doughnut effect.

There are 8 regional authorities at the moment with limited powers. These will be merged to 3 with this announcement. My opinion is that these 8 could have provided all admin for local authorities, be directly elected and some oversight of development plans, etc, not too big to be a HSE, big enough to gain economies of scale.

Godge

Sleepy wrote: »

Both my parents have taken voluntary packages from Bank of Ireland this year. If you're in your mid 50's or older, it can be quite appealing even without a package as generous as Public Sector workers get offered on their voluntary schemes.

I'd know an Assistant Director in one of the councils who took the voluntary package he was offered the year before last.

Hate to tell you this but the Bank of Ireland schemes were much more generous than the public sector ones.

http://www.iboa.ie/media/newsreleases/2011/10/24/iboa-and-bank-of-ireland-accept-mediators-recommen/


Your parents should have left when it was six weeks plus statutory before it was cut to four weeks plus statutory.

The poor public servants only get three weeks plus statutory.

Godge

sceptre wrote: »

There's been some criticism of the amalgamations (call them abolitions, consolidations, amalgamations, all the same really) of the county and city councils on the basis that good policy for the rural areas is not necessarily good policy for the urban areas. There's some merit to this.

In Limerick, it has the small bonus of solving a lot of the issues with regard to the city having expanded into the Limerick county council administered area. In the past decade or two, especially, Limerick dwellers have become familiar with the concept of the doughnut effect. City centre's largely dead during the day while the satellite shopping centres are, comparatively speaking, doing a roaring trade. It's not exactly Flint, Michigan but it's not a million stages away. It still doesn't solve the issue of the city having expanded into county Clare and residents of those areas may even be more resistant to becoming part of a county Limerick administration rather than a Limerick city one.

The touted savings aren't going to be as significant as they might be when staff are transferred from the old authorities to the new one. The CPA prevents targeted redundancies, as Bits_n_Bobs said.

I'd prefer to see proper regional authorities, each centred around a designated large urban centre (Cork, Limerick, Galway, Sligo, Waterford, a few other appropriate places, I'm too lazy right now to look at a map), with a separate setup for Dublin. A limited number of regional authorities, each with a proper development plan. But that would move so many boundaries that half the country would get pissy about it so I can't see that happening any time soon.

Copying the VEC set-up would solve the issue. Limerick City, Limerick County and Clare VEC are being merged.

MadsL

Godge wrote: »

Hate to tell you this but the Bank of Ireland schemes were much more generous than the public sector ones.

http://www.iboa.ie/media/newsreleases/2011/10/24/iboa-and-bank-of-ireland-accept-mediators-recommen/


Your parents should have left when it was six weeks plus statutory before it was cut to four weeks plus statutory.

The poor public servants only get three weeks plus statutory.

Were either of these capped?

murphaph

Step in the right direction but much more needs to be done in this area. Dublin County Council should be stitched back together (was only split up by a jealous Dail) and indeed the City Council should be incorporated into it.

charlemont

All Town and Borough Councils axed. Sure why not ??

The media coverage of this is abysmal. More coverage with details needed...

Wise Old Elf

murphaph wrote: »

Step in the right direction but much more needs to be done in this area. Dublin County Council should be stitched back together (was only split up by a jealous Dail) and indeed the City Council should be incorporated into it.

I agree it's a step in the right direction, but not so aure on the amalgamation of the 4 dublin authorities. South Dublin, Dun Laoghaire Rathdown and Fingal all have populations higher than Limerick, and Waterford (and possibly Galway), so in their own right, could be cities. It seems that Local Authorities in the greater Dublin area will actually have their complement of Councillors increased in line with recent population changes.

charlemont wrote: »

All Town and Borough Councils axed. Sure why not ??

The media coverage of this is abysmal. More coverage with details needed...

The official announcement is not until tomorrow, this is the normal drip feed of partial information as per most govt announcments.

ardmacha

Dublin County Council should be stitched back together (was only split up by a jealous Dail) and indeed the City Council should be incorporated into it.

Dublin is not a bad example of how things might be done. There is 4 authorities of reasonable size, but many services (water, fire etc) are effectively one.

charlemont

Disco Stuart wrote: »

I agree it's a step in the right direction, but not so aure on the amalgamation of the 4 dublin authorities. South Dublin, Dun Laoghaire Rathdown and Fingal all have populations higher than Limerick, and Waterford (and possibly Galway), so in their own right, could be cities. It seems that Local Authorities in the greater Dublin area will actually have their complement of Councillors increased in line with recent population changes.



The official announcement is not until tomorrow, this is the normal drip feed of partial information as per most govt announcments.

Thanks..

The urban areas of Dublin should really be in one authority. It will be interesting to see what will happen the Dublin Authorities.

Another interesting move will be what happens the Borough council of Kilkenny..Will Big Phil axe it ? If Sligo Drogheda Wexford and Clonmel's Borough Councils get the axe so should Kilkennys (which by the way is tiny with only 8800pop).

Be interesting to see what happens the Town Council in our largest town Dundalk. But as Waterford and Limerick cities are to lose their City Council's then no town with a lower population should have its own authority either.

Clonmel is screwed now too, Losing its Borough council and losing the county council when the two Tipps are amalgamated.

Sleepy

I don't see why a town would be "screwed" by not being the location of a local authority...

charlemont

Sleepy wrote: »

I don't see why a town would be "screwed" by not being the location of a local authority...

Well I'm afraid I'v only one set of eyes so I can't see it for you either..;)

deise blue

Godge wrote: »

Hate to tell you this but the Bank of Ireland schemes were much more generous than the public sector ones.

http://www.iboa.ie/media/newsreleases/2011/10/24/iboa-and-bank-of-ireland-accept-mediators-recommen/


Your parents should have left when it was six weeks plus statutory before it was cut to four weeks plus statutory.

The poor public servants only get three weeks plus statutory.

Absolutely , I retired from the Bank at age 52 .

I derogated part of my pension taking a lump sum of approx €110,000 tax free ( inclusive of Statutory redundancy ) my pension which was paid immediately equated to half my final years salary - in addition I received the 3% increase being the first tranche of the National Wage Agreement towards 2016 & of course , if I'm lucky enough to live that long I can claim the OAP as long as I sign on for the appropriate credits.

I also received the JSA benefit for 15 months.

Yes I know that I'm lucky but I thought that I would post these details to reflect the fact that the IBOA did a superb job in negotiating such terms - I'm truly grateful that I was then a member & am now a pensioner member but also to provide a comparison with PS redundancy/early retirement packages.

Times have changed but still for example my wife was offered the current BOI redundancy package which would have provided her with a tax free lump sum of €110,000 + a retraining grant & she would receive a pro rata pension in 4 years time which would equate to approx 60 % of her final salary

Gumbo

deise blue wrote: »

Absolutely , I retired from the Bank at age 52 .

I derogated part of my pension taking a lump sum of approx €110,000 tax free ( inclusive of Statutory redundancy ) my pension which was paid immediately equated to half my final years salary - in addition I received the 3% increase being the first tranche of the National Wage Agreement towards 2016 & of course , if I'm lucky enough to live that long I can claim the OAP as long as I sign on for the appropriate credits.

I also received the JSA benefit for 15 months.

Yes I know that I'm lucky but I thought that I would post these details to reflect the fact that the IBOA did a superb job in negotiating such terms - I'm truly grateful that I was then a member & am now a pensioner member but also to provide a comparison with PS redundancy/early retirement packages.

Times have changed but still for example my wife was offered the current BOI redundancy package which would have provided her with a tax free lump sum of €110,000 + a retraining grant & she would receive a pro rata pension in 4 years time which would equate to approx 60 % of her final salary

They are better than the PS scheme for the average person!
You done extremely well and hope it works out for ya.

[Jackass]

It would be a political mine field to orchestrate it in any way that isn't half arsed.

Can you enforce compulsory redundancies on one sector but not in another? The unions would have a field day. And if you give voluntary redundancies, you're rarely going to get targeted areas and in this enviornment, no one who is a drain on the Government would walk away from a coushy job, so only those who are high skilled or near retirement would take it...good luck getting rid of the lad in the mail room and the pencil pushers...

I think it's a bad sign that the Government has been quite soft on negotiations with public sector when talking about implimenting something like this, because if you don't force it through the way you want it, you're just going to get it on the public sector employees terms, which will just be another waste of time and money and any "savings" announced will be offset by other benefits to those who left.

I appreciate that sensible Economics' worst enemy is sensible politics, but FG have in the past just bitten the bullet and taken the unpopular decisions to clean up FF mess and suffered for a decade out of Government, but what has to be done has to be done and politics has no place (or shouldn't have a place) in Economics...

Oh for a world of fiscal dictatorship where politicians only job is to argue about nothing rather than argue about doing nothing... :pac: