Ulysses

Dub63

I've heard a fair bit about it, but have yet to read it.

Have many of you here read it? And if so, what did you think?

Thanks!

Ormus

I had a go a while back but couldn't get into it.

I enjoyed Dubliners.

tHE vAGGABOND

I had a go a while back but couldn't get into it.

I enjoyed Dubliners.

+1

Really REALLY dont understand the "hype" around it tbh

Queen-Mise

It is fantastic. But you will need help reading it. So before/after each chapter - take a look on the internet for a chapter breakdown. So much of what is happening will pass you by anyway, this will help a bit of an understanding of the book.

Definitely read A Portrait of An Artist beforehand as it is Stephen upto 18 and then Ulysses is him as an adult.

My other suggestion though is listen to the audio at the same time as reading the book. This REALLY helped me. Seriously check into this though - as I couldn't believe the difference it made even in the first five/six pages. Buck Mulligan in the tower used about 10 different accents but this went over my head reading the book - on the audio, the narrator was doing all the accents. It gave a very different understanding of what was going on.

The other think you don't expect is how funny it is. From the last chapter - 'you'd vomit up a nicer face' :D, what a great insult. Parts of it are set in pubs with the drinking. The abuse is great reading.

Dub63

Queen-Mise wrote: »

It is fantastic. But you will need help reading it. So before/after each chapter - take a look on the internet for a chapter breakdown. So much of what is happening will pass you by anyway, this will help a bit of an understanding of the book.

Definitely read A Portrait of An Artist beforehand as it is Stephen upto 18 and then Ulysses is him as an adult.

My other suggestion though is listen to the audio at the same time as reading the book. This REALLY helped me. Seriously check into this though - as I couldn't believe the difference it made even in the first five/six pages. Buck Mulligan in the tower used about 10 different accents but this went over my head reading the book - on the audio, the narrator was doing all the accents. It gave a very different understanding of what was going on.

The other think you don't expect is how funny it is. From the last chapter - 'you'd vomit up a nicer face' :D, what a great insult. Parts of it are set in pubs with the drinking. The abuse is great reading.

Thanks Queen-Mise! I did read Portrait Of An Artist, but that was a while ago. I may look back over it before I dive into Ulysses! Thanks for the advice though. I'll definitely take it into account!

tHE vAGGABOND

It is fantastic. But you will need help reading it. So before/after each chapter - take a look on the internet for a chapter breakdown.

Im well educated in school and life and read a lot - if I need to read an explanation of what has happened in a chapter just after I have read it that means its not a great book IMHO

If it was a John Connolly book or a Cecila Ahern book asking you to do that, what would you say?

Mardy Bum

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

Im well educated in school and life and read a lot - if I need to read an explanation of what has happened in a chapter just after I have read it that means its not a great book IMHO

If it was a John Connolly book or a Cecila Ahern book asking you to do that, what would you say?

The book is not meant to be easy. Its an experimental modernist piece. Now you may say that you dislike this style which is fair enough but there is no denying its brilliance.

Harry Angstrom

Dub63 wrote: »

I've heard a fair bit about it, but have yet to read it.

Have many of you here read it? And if so, what did you think?

Thanks!

I asked a similar question last year. You might find some of the answers useful:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=72805554

Acacia

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

Im well educated in school and life and read a lot - if I need to read an explanation of what has happened in a chapter just after I have read it that means its not a great book IMHO

Well, what a 'great' book is, is hugely subjective, no? I'm assuming here (correct me if I'm wrong) that you would take a good book to be one in which there is a conventional or coherent plot structure, clear character development, etc, etc. Which is absolutely fine. But Joyce, as Mardy Bum, mentions was not writing a crime thriller or romance or what have you. Ulysses is an experimental modernist work which plays with language and form. It's not going to be a walk in the park to read ( and some of it is downright tedious, I admit.) But does that mean it's not a great book?

A lot of the criticism I've heard of the book is that it must be pretentious crap if you have to find out what's going on in each chapter before you even start reading the novel proper. But why does reading a novel have to be easy? What makes a novel 'bad' or 'not great' simply by being challenging? So many people have this notion before they even pick up the book that they have to instantly like it, that there is some big secret to ''getting it'' and if you don't immediately understand it, then the literary elitists will make assumptions about your intelligence,taste, etc. I find it interesting for example that you seem to almost be defending your opinion, by saying that you are educated and well-read, as if to criticize ''Ulyssess'', people will try to imply that you aren't.

But I'd say there is hardly anyone who has read the book that didn't find it challenging and unlikeable in parts. Sure, it took me two college modules before I'd began to get what Joyce was trying to acheieve. But once I stuck at it, I found I actually was beginning to enjoy it, some parts are even quite funny! I found it was helpful to see parts of it performed or acted out, as Joyce uses a lot of colloquial humor and Dublin slang, etc.


I understand it may not be everyone's cup of tea. Some people prefer to just have books that are entertaining and straight-forward and that's grand ( I love those kinda books myself!)

But there seems to be a lot of dismissal of Joyce by people who've never even read or tried to read ''Ulysses'' ( not the poster I'm replying to now, just something I've noticed in general) and who seem to base their criticism of the book on flawed assumptions.

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

If it was a John Connolly book or a Cecila Ahern book asking you to do that, what would you say?

I think I'd say fair play to Cecelia for branching into something a bit more adventurous!


Seriously though, I'm assuming that you're implying that people put up with the difficulty of reading Joyce simply because ''It's Joyce and you have to like him, because he's a classic writer''. Nothing would turn you off a book quicker than having to like it ( or a movie, or song, too, for that matter!) Which would be one of those flawed assumptions I mentioned earlier. You have to approach Ulysses with a fairly open mind- there are parts that are a chore to get through ( the chapter written almost entirely in legal jargon springs to mind), but it was not written to entertain the reader in the way Ahern or Connolly's books are, so it's really comparing apples and oranges.

I've really rambled on enough I think! I'd just say for anyone interested in tackling Ulysses, buy a guide to it, or watch a film/play production so you're not too confused by what's going on.

jefreywithonef

Ulysses is a hard slog. But it's worthwhile in the end. I found chunks of it to be style over substance (possibly down to my own unfamiliarity with certain writing styles), but there is great substance to the book; Bloom is one of the most interesting and likeable characters I've ever encountered in a novel, and for Joyce to have projected such a large and intricate profile of the character within one day of his life is phenomenal.

I suggest following another poster's advice in reading up on the chapters before and after each one - enormously helpful, and even fun. Some parts of the book are tedious, but just persevere and force yourself to continue onwards and you'll be fine.

jefreywithonef

Also, I found James Heffernan's audio lectures on each chapter very accessible and helpful. Worth hunting down.

Gamayun

Dub63 wrote: »

Thanks Queen-Mise! I did read Portrait Of An Artist, but that was a while ago. I may look back over it before I dive into Ulysses! Thanks for the advice though. I'll definitely take it into account!

It might be an idea to read Stephen Hero instead of re-reading Portrait.

It's an earlier draft of Portrait that was released posthumously. I would never recommend it ahead of Portrait, but since you've already read that you might find it interesting.

PurpleBee

Another thing is that a lot of people tend to be lulled into a false sense of security with the first two chapters thinking it's not actually that difficult and then they are slapped in the face with the riddle that is Proteus at which point they give up thinking Joyce is taking the piss out of them for being so stupid.

Either persist with Proteus if you have help and time or if you don't have the patience I think it's ok to skip it, it's definitely better than giving up entirely. You can always go back to it later when you're more fully immersed in the experience of Ulysses.

PurpleBee

Also the suggestion to watch a film or play adaptation of Ulysses is possibly one of the worst pieces of advice one could give and should be ignored at all costs.

Dub63

PurpleBee wrote: »

Also the suggestion to watch a film or play adaptation of Ulysses is possibly one of the worst pieces of advice one could give and should be ignored at all costs.

I'll keep that in mind Purple Bee!

Da Shins Kelly

My brother found a pretty good way to get through it which was reading it aloud. It might not be practical if you're reading it in a library or something, but at home it does help. You realise how much of the language actually rhymes and rolls off the tongue.

Acacia

PurpleBee wrote: »

Also the suggestion to watch a film or play adaptation of Ulysses is possibly one of the worst pieces of advice one could give and should be ignored at all costs.

Why? If you're going to dismiss my advice out of hand, you could at least provide a reason.

I found seeing some parts of the book acted out really helpful in understanding what's going on. The 'Cyclops' episode for example was much easier to understand, with all the different people that are speaking in it, when I saw it performed.

I wouldn't automatically rule it out for everyone just because you don't find it useful.

Queen-Mise

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

Im well educated in school and life and read a lot - if I need to read an explanation of what has happened in a chapter just after I have read it that means its not a great book IMHO

If it was a John Connolly book or a Cecila Ahern book asking you to do that, what would you say?

They are at least 5/6 levels to every chapter in Ulysses. It doesn't matter how well-educated, intelligent, etc., you are; no-one can pick up all the complexity of Ulysses on a first read. I know a few people on Blooms Day every year start re-reading Ulysses, some twenty re-reads later they are still discovering new stuff, interpretations etc.

John Connolly and Cecilia Ahern are not literature but popular fiction. Some literature does need external help to understand it, this does not lessen it as a work of art.

PurpleBee wrote: »

Also the suggestion to watch a film or play adaptation of Ulysses is possibly one of the worst pieces of advice one could give and should be ignored at all costs.

I kinda agree with this - read (listen to it first) the book before you watch anything. You won't get caught then in other people's interpretations.



Ulysses is amazing. You get the crassest of toilet humour & **** alongside some of the most beautiful language you will ever read.
Every chapter is written in a different style & as the book goes on, the chapters get longer, as the characters get tireder.
The chapter with Garryowen, the dog, (I think it is Cyclops) is one of the funniest things I have ever read.
The chapter in the brothel is hard work - I really didn't like some of the imagery in it.

Joyce has probably the biggest ego that anyone has who ever wrote a word in literature (deserved more than likely). So he looked at the greats of literature like Shakespeare, Homer etc - said I can do that and then does it better.

I find it hard to comprehend how Joyce could plan and then write such a complex book.

PurpleBee

Acacia wrote: »

Why? If you're going to dismiss my advice out of hand, you could at least provide a reason.

I found seeing some parts of the book acted out really helpful in understanding what's going on. The 'Cyclops' episode for example was much easier to understand, with all the different people that are speaking in it, when I saw it performed.

I wouldn't automatically rule it out for everyone just because you don't find it useful.

Sorry I should have provided a reason. Any attempt that I have encountered that has attempted to put Ulysses on stage or screen has failed to give a sense of the work and most have been rubbish. If I was thinking of taking Ulysses on and saw one of these "adaptations" first I fear I might have thought better of it on false premises.

snausages

I read slightly over half of it. Stopped somewhere in the episode in the hospital where so-and-so is having her baby. Same section where Dedalus and Bloom meet I think. I enjoyed it up to that point anyway, I'll finish it at some stage. It's awfully esoteric but that didn't really detract from my enjoyment of the novel. You don't need to get every little obscure allusion to enjoy reading Ulysses, though I imagine it would help. (Anyone know what "U.P. up" is about?)

Favourite section was Cyclops. Least favourite section was that bit where Bloom is taking a ****e.

Mardy Bum

Queen-Mise wrote: »

Joyce has probably the biggest ego that anyone has who ever wrote a word in literature (deserved more than likely). So he looked at the greats of literature like Shakespeare, Homer etc - said I can do that and then does it better.

He ran up to Yeats house one night locked and proclaimed from the outisde that Ireland had a new genius.

Classy.

PurpleBee

snausages wrote: »

(Anyone know what "U.P. up" is about?)

I think Ellmann suggested the U.P. signified the action of someone peeing whilst having a erection as in, you pee up. Less imaginative people speculate that it might mean Ulster Protestant, or maybe just nothing at all.

Giblet

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

Im well educated in school and life and read a lot - if I need to read an explanation of what has happened in a chapter just after I have read it that means its not a great book IMHO

If it was a John Connolly book or a Cecila Ahern book asking you to do that, what would you say?

Nonsense, he deliberately plays with language and uses recurring and abstract motifs throughout, intended to force to continuously rethink what you've just read. It isn't just an exercise in difficult language which if you're "smart" enough, won't be a problem. There are so many interpretations that can be taken, and it can be difficult to even know what the current character is actually doing, or just thinking about.

donaghs

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

+1

Really REALLY dont understand the "hype" around it tbh

Most of the hype was initially about the fact that it was so ground-breaking in the way that it was written. The problem with writing in a experimental style is that it doesn't always make for an easy read.

In recent decades, a new hype has been created by people trying to cash in on it, like the Dublin Tourist industry - which perhaps creates unrealistic expectations from first time readers. Until the arrival of "liberal Ireland" (and when people saw the potential business opportunities), Official Ireland shunned Ulysees and Joyce. Bascically as being cosmopolitan unpatriotic pornographic filth.

I mostly enjoyed it. (e.g. the Aeolus and Cyclops chapters). Except for the more experimental parts (e.g. stream of consciousness) which can be a strain to read. But even then I could see there was a discernable style and poetry to some of them.

HeadPig

Ulysses is a simply breathtaking masterpiece. It's funny because before I read it I built it up in my head as some kind of literary behemoth that required reams of preparatory reading. If you want to get all the references you can do that but as a standalone text read without a guide or preparatory reading it's still jawdropping. Joyce's turn of phrase and ingenious internal monologue device make it a real pleasure to read.

I always thought I might respect it as a colossal literary achievement, but I never thought I'd come to love it the way I do: like an old friend that you just love to visit every once in a while, just to turn the pages to taste Bloom's pork kidney, enjoy Mulligan's persiflage and hear Molly's internal ramblings.

Every Irish person should read it, or at least attempt it.

Queen-Mise

My favourite chapter is the one on the beach - the writing is so beautiful and elegant. It flows along the page.
In typical Joycean style it is also the chapter with him ****:eek: So you have incredible beautiful language describing something that crass.

JohnFalstaff

Queen-Mise wrote: »

My favourite chapter is the one on the beach - the writing is so beautiful and elegant. It flows along the page.
In typical Joycean style it is also the chapter with him ****:eek: So you have incredible beautiful language describing something that crass.

Why do you keep describing **** as crass? I don't think Joyce would have thought of **** as crass. He was a big fan of ****, and farting.

One of the great things about Ulysses is that Joyce celebrates everyday life, and people. Ulysses is a book for everyone, forget the 5/6 levels of meaning. It's funny, human, thoughtful, engaging...Headpig had it bang on the money - enjoy Ulysses as a a great read.

Mardy Bum

JohnFalstaff wrote: »

Why do you keep describing **** as crass? I don't think Joyce would have thought of **** as crass. He was a big fan of ****, and farting.

One of the great things about Ulysses is that Joyce celebrates everyday life, and people. Ulysses is a book for everyone, forget the 5/6 levels of meaning. It's funny, human, thoughtful, engaging...Headpig had it bang on the money - enjoy Ulysses as a a great read.

Almost everything you said is correct but it is purposefully difficult (David Simon's "Fuck the average" viewer mantra comes to mind) to read after the first four chapters and the vast majority of people do not get past "Ineluctable modality of the visible..." and if they do it is only till the end of the chapter. Joyce wrote a stinging essay called the Day of the Rabblement which lamented the Abbey's artistic failures as a result of a desire to appeal to the masses. I don't think he wanted to appeal to everyone and this quote from TDR is fairly damning

If an artist courts the favour of the multitude he cannot escape the contagion of its fetichism and deliberate self-deception, and if he joins in a popular movement he does so at his own risk.

It should be read by everyone, but unfortunately will not be even read by many Irish people.