Building in accordance with regulations?

crazy_kenny · 09-10-2012 7:59pm #1

I am starting a build by direct labour early 2013. I will be sending my plans out to tender shortly. Do I need to specify on the tender that I want it built to part L of the building regs or is this a given?

Also, if I am building by direct labour is it harder to get all the trades to comply to the regs?

Thanks,
BK.

sydthebeat · 09-10-2012 8:04pm

ALL building regulations have to be met as an absolute minimum.

" getting trades to comply " is your responsibility if going direct. Its up to you to be proficient and educated in the regulations as project manager.

crazy_kenny · 09-10-2012 8:46pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

ALL building regulations have to be met as an absolute minimum.

" getting trades to comply " is your responsibility if going direct. Its up to you to be proficient and educated in the regulations as project manager.

Can you suggest a good construction book as a starting point.

BryanF · 09-10-2012 8:50pm

crazy_kenny wrote: »

Can you suggest a good construction book as a starting point.

if you really must go it alone, and i strongly recommend you seek professional assistance, you could start with the homebond book.

muffler · 09-10-2012 8:52pm

crazy_kenny wrote: »

Can you suggest a good construction book as a starting point.

The Homebond house building manual.

Make sure you get the latest (7th) edition but it will cost you €80. Available from most Easons shops or direct from Homebond but that will incur a €10 P & P charge.

crazy_kenny · 09-10-2012 8:56pm

BryanF wrote: »

if you really must go it alone, and i strongly recommend you seek professional assistance, you could start with the homebond book.

I was hoping to get my architect to supervise the build but the fees are quite high imo. What kind of other "professional assistance" is available and where can i find them?

BryanF · 09-10-2012 8:58pm

crazy_kenny wrote: »

I was hoping to get my architect to supervise the build but the fees are quite high imo. What kind of other "professional assistance" is available and where can i find them?

get my architect to supervise

I'm sure ill get slatted here for this but, if you could appreciate the grief that is dealing with a self-builder, you appreciate why 'the fees are quite high'

crazy_kenny · 09-10-2012 9:49pm

BryanF wrote: »

crazy_kenny wrote: »

I was hoping to get my architect to supervise the build but the fees are quite high imo. What kind of other "professional assistance" is available and where can i find them?

get my architect to supervise

I'm sure ill get slatted here for this but, if you could appreciate the grief that is dealing with a self-builder, you appreciate why 'the fees are quite high'

I suppose if I go the direct labour route and get architect to supervise build I would probably spend the same amount as getting a builder.

Who is more suitable to supervise build architect or engineer?

BryanF · 09-10-2012 10:49pm

crazy_kenny wrote: »

I suppose if I go the direct labour route and get architect to supervise build I would probably spend the same amount as getting a builder.

Who is more suitable to supervise build architect or engineer?

this isnt a live self question, so maybe it should be moved. who is more suitable to what? visit five times and sign a piece of paper for the bank saying x amount of money is spent or visit and hope to F'""" short-cuts haven't been taken and covered up or visit with regular contact between a competent builder who follows your architect specification, gives you and the architect comfort that complaince with building regs will be meet? id go with the latter;)

muffler · 10-10-2012 12:20am

A few posts from the live self build thread moved to here.

Villain · 10-10-2012 8:05am

BryanF wrote: »

this isnt a live self question, so maybe it should be moved. who is more suitable to what? visit five times and sign a piece of paper for the bank saying x amount of money is spent or visit and hope to F'""" short-cuts haven't been taken and covered up or visit with regular contact between a competent builder who follows your architect specification, gives you and the architect comfort that complaince with building regs will be meet? id go with the latter;)

BryanF I understand you want to support your trade and professionals with experience are always going to add more value to a project, however building isn't rocket science and if someone spends the time to educate themselves and ensures each trade they employ have the required skills and experience then a self build project may not require the expense of the regular visits from such professionals.

The main issue is time OP if you can take time and get the design that you want but that also allows Reg's to be achieved easily you will be on a good start. Then allow time between each stage of the build so you can ensure that everything is done correctly, retain payment for each stage until you are satisfied.

As I said building like most professions isn't rocket science you just need to educate yourself and allow more time and you will find you will get the home you want and at an affordable price. The main issue I'm finding with suppliers and trade is they want to over spec' many aspects which is all when and good if I had won the lottery but I have a budget from the Mortgage I have secured and the build has to come in on that budget.

I love when you watch shows on the TV like Grand Designs or even the Irish Room to Improve and the budget gets blown out of the water, in the real world budgets aren't that flexible.

sydthebeat · 10-10-2012 8:39am

villain,

if you read the latest edition of "construct ireland" you will see that the so called expert builders in HOMEBOND still cannot get their heads around the new regulations.

i see every day that full time builders out there are very very slow to come to terms with the seismic changes to building since 2008.

Building may not be rocket science, but it certainly does involved structural science, building physics, material science, chemical engineering, mechanical engineering and even thermodynamic science.

if someone spends the time to educate themselves and ensures each trade they employ have the required skills and experience then a self build project may not require the expense of the regular visits from such professionals.

all tradesmen spend at least a full time year, plus on site apprenticeships to become qualified at what they do. Architectural technicians can spend 3-5 years full time in college, engineers likewise, architects 5-7 years to become qualifed.

Are you honestly suggesting that some lay person can gain the required education with part time non structured learning, and become capable to directing trades, spoting workmanship issues and ensuring compliance with regulatory issues???? ..... laughable to be honest.

villain, you have openly admitted to building in accordance with 2005 regs.... believe me when i say that is caveman stuff compared to 2011 regulations.

Villain · 10-10-2012 9:20am

sydthebeat wrote: »

villain,

if you read the latest edition of "construct ireland" you will see that the so called expert builders in HOMEBOND still cannot get their heads around the new regulations.

i see every day that full time builders out there are very very slow to come to terms with the seismic changes to building since 2008.

Building may not be rocket science, but it certainly does involved structural science, building physics, material science, chemical engineering, mechanical engineering and even thermodynamic science.

all tradesmen spend at least a full time year, plus on site apprenticeships to become qualified at what they do. Architectural technicians can spend 3-5 years full time in college, engineers likewise, architects 5-7 years to become qualifed.

Are you honestly suggesting that some lay person can gain the required education with part time non structured learning, and become capable to directing trades, spoting workmanship issues and ensuring compliance with regulatory issues???? ..... laughable to be honest.

villain, you have openly admitted to building in accordance with 2005 regs.... believe me when i say that is caveman stuff compared to 2011 regulations.

I was laughing when I picked up the new edition of "construct Ireland" now called "Passive House +"!

I agree that some builders are slow to adapt the new reg's but you get that in every industry, especially in my own (I.T.).

My point is managing a self build project isn't rocket science as long as you ensure each person employed has the skills and experience required.

A lay person can certainly manage a self build project if they take the time to educate themselves, the reg's aren't that complicated and as I said the most important first step is selecting a design that allows Reg's to be met easily.

Take one small example for my build, the dormer windows upstairs were reduced by 50 mm each side to allow extra insulation, a lot of dormers are built with windows that occupy the full width between the uprights not allowing space to meet the required UValue.

I'm certainly not building to 2005 Reg's my house will be far exceed 2008 and even 2011 in many aspects, the main reason I have stated that I'm not building to current reg's is the requirement for renewable energy sources.

Most people are using solar panels to comply, I have a professional weather station which has logged data since 2008 for my location and I can say that solar is a bad investment, it simply doesn't make sense in this country.

sydthebeat · 10-10-2012 9:38am

Villain wrote: »

A lay person can certainly manage a self build project if they take the time to educate themselves, the reg's aren't that complicated and as I said the most important first step is selecting a design that allows Reg's to be met easily.

in my experience thats a recipe for disaster, so we'll agree to disagree.

Villain · 10-10-2012 9:46am

sydthebeat wrote: »

in my experience thats a recipe for disaster, so we'll agree to disagree.

Fair enough and I would agree it "could" be a recipe for disaster but it can also work very well, I've come across many projects that did work very well and I have also come across many projects that didn't go as planned and not all were been managed by self builders!

sinnerboy · 10-10-2012 5:12pm

Villain wrote: »

My point is managing a self build project isn't rocket science as long as you ensure each person employed has the skills and experience required.

All that Ireland have to do is score more goals than Germany to win on Friday It's not rocket science is it ? But somehow I don't think it will happen.

A novice self builder WILL mess up . The question only is - by how much ?

The regs ARE "that complicated"

How does a novice find "the time to educate themselves" and how do they recognize "a design that allows Reg's to be met easily"

One of the sad realities about building is that it's not rocket science. Rocket science looks complex and is complex. Building , in the hands of experts , only looks simple. It is not. And so building invites in the chancers with all their hubris. I would not care to buy what they build.

Villain - I am not engaging with you here directly so don't read my post here as such. I don't expect to change your views.

Just rhetoric / food for thought intended by anyone tempted to follow your lead.

sinnerboy · 10-10-2012 5:19pm

crazy_kenny wrote: »

I am starting a build by direct labour early 2013. I will be sending my plans out to tender shortly. Do I need to specify on the tender that I want it built to part L of the building regs or is this a given?

Also, if I am building by direct labour is it harder to get all the trades to comply to the regs?

Thanks,
BK.

If I may tackle what I think forms part of your understanding.

Do you believe that

by hiring tradesman that each will singly and collectively know the regs and build to regs - as a matter of course
that if they do not that there is a sort of policeman in guise of Local Authority/ Some Govt Dept to "force" them to build to regs ?

Neither is true. A a building owner you are the first person to be held responsible to comply with building regulations.

archtech · 10-10-2012 5:19pm

One thing I will say, (if) when the proposed draft amendment to the Building Control (Amendment) Regulations comes into beginning, it require every self builder to engage the services of a (registered) professional throughout the build process and will mean professional fees will account for a relatively significant cost of the entire build costs. Not an immediate issue, but it is going to be come one within the next 12 month I suspect.

As for good books to assist a self builder, there isn't a single definitive one available at present.The Homebond manual is ok however I would not be depending on that for guidance when it comes to detailing Part L. Obtaining some Passive-house related stuff certainly would be beneficial in that regard.

Villain · 10-10-2012 6:42pm

sinnerboy wrote: »

All that Ireland have to do is score more goals than Germany to win on Friday It's not rocket science is it ? But somehow I don't think it will happen.

A novice self builder WILL mess up . The question only is - by how much ?

The regs ARE "that complicated"

How does a novice find "the time to educate themselves" and how do they recognize "a design that allows Reg's to be met easily"

One of the sad realities about building is that it's not rocket science. Rocket science looks complex and is complex. Building , in the hands of experts , only looks simple. It is not. And so building invites in the chancers with all their hubris. I would not care to buy what they build.

Villain - I am not engaging with you here directly so don't read my post here as such. I don't expect to change your views.

Just rhetoric / food for thought intended by anyone tempted to follow your lead.

LOL I don't know why you find it so hard to believe that people can educate themselves, the point of view you expressed is rampant on this website across many different sections. I work in I.T. many people think some of what I do is rocket science however anyone with a decent IQ that has time can up skill easily.

e.g. I know people who have done civil Eng. and are now doing a conversion course to I.T., some people think thats odd I don't.

I'll let you know what mistakes I make as the person that never made mistakes never made anything

crazy_kenny · 10-10-2012 7:25pm

Villain wrote: »

My point is managing a self build project isn't rocket science as long as you ensure each person employed has the skills and experience required.

A lay person can certainly manage a self build project if they take the time to educate themselves, the reg's aren't that complicated and as I said the most important first step is selecting a design that allows Reg's to be met easily.

I completely agree with you Villain. Selecting reputable tradesmen is my first task. Checking out their previous work and contacting their clients would be a good start.

I work as an electrician in a factory so will be doing the electrics myself.

My brother in law is a builder but he is in the opposite part of the country unfortunately. He will be available anytime for any queries I have regarding building regulations.

My house design is a very standard 1600ft2 bungalow. It is rectangular in shape with a standard roof design. Surely with good tradesmen the current regs can be easily met.

BryanF · 10-10-2012 7:36pm

Villain wrote: »

Surely with good tradesmen the current regs can be easily met.

ill do my best to hold back the profanities here!!!
you are ignoring one thing here, its not their job, to know the regs. your trying to save a few quid by not employing an architect/engineer who does. dont get me wrong, you and your collogues will know the regs that apply to your/their areas of expertise, but not the whole picture nor will they give a hoot, because it's not their job - you have just made it yours! best of luck on your project.
ill get you started MINIMUM regs

best of luck

muffler · 10-10-2012 8:16pm

@crazy_kenny and Villain. I have been reading your posts with interest and at the outset let me be clear when I say that I dont give a monkey's as to how you carry out your works. If you both feel that tradesmen are the men do do ALL work associated with house building then I genuinely wish you well.

This thread is no different to hundreds of others where people come here and ask a question and get good advice from the professionals who give their time freely to help and assist with various tips, solutions, ideas, suggestions etc. Once again the undertone of the misconceived notion of "looking after our own" is evident here as in other threads but let me set the record straight.

Personally I couldn't care less if you employ a professional or not. It means nothing to me one way or the other and Im sure most of the contributors here feel the same but you guys are doing yourselves a disservice by not taking heed of the good advice offered. None of the people who have contributed to the thread have anything to gain from their input here other than an expected acceptance of their advice based on years of experience.

Why ask if you aren't going to listen?

One final question though. If you have a mortgage, or if Building Control look for detailing or if you decide to sell or even remortgage in the future will it be the chippy or the brickie who signs off on the development?

Villain · 10-10-2012 8:44pm

muffler wrote: »

@crazy_kenny and Villain. I have been reading your posts with interest and at the outset let me be clear when I say that I dont give a monkey's as to how you carry out your works. If you both feel that tradesmen are the men do do ALL work associated with house building then I genuinely wish you well.

This thread is no different to hundreds of others where people come here and ask a question and get good advice from the professionals who give their time freely to help and assist with various tips, solutions, ideas, suggestions etc. Once again the undertone of the misconceived notion of "looking after our own" is evident here as in other threads but let me set the record straight.

Personally I couldn't care less if you employ a professional or not. It means nothing to me one way or the other and Im sure most of the contributors here feel the same but you guys are doing yourselves a disservice by not taking heed of the good advice offered. None of the people who have contributed to the thread have anything to gain from their input here other than an expected acceptance of their advice based on years of experience.

Why ask if you aren't going to listen?

One final question though. If you have a mortgage, or if Building Control look for detailing or if you decide to sell or even remortgage in the future will it be the chippy or the brickie who signs off on the development?

Well you are making some assumptions Muffler, I'm not sure where I ever said "that tradesmen are the men do do ALL work associated with house building "

Thats a very naive viewpoint and I am certainly not naive, I started building my house 5 years ago, over the past 8 years my parents, Uncle's and Brothers have all built homes using contractors and they have been many issues and mistakes.

I have taken that experience along with a lot of time to educate myself on the different aspects of the project I am undertaking. I have a engineer who is signing off on the stage payments, a nice down to earth fella who doesn't give off the same vibe as some who have replied to me here.

I have asked questions here and welcome all and any feedback, however the constant "ha you haven't a clue good luck, hire a fellow professional" gets a little annoying.

My point in relation to hiring people who have the skills and experience is that it helps reduce issues, project management is project management whether it's managing a rollout of a cloud saas product or building a home, giving clear objectives to people who you are confident can complete the task is half the battle.

archtech · 10-10-2012 10:21pm

Villain wrote: »

My point in relation to hiring people who have the skills and experience is that it helps reduce issues, project management is project management whether it's managing a rollout of a cloud saas product or building a home, giving clear objectives to people who you are confident can complete the task is half the battle.

Villian,your quiet correct project management is project management in most instances, and a good project manger will manage a construction job as well as any other once all the information, sequencing and knowledge is available to the project manager. For a self builder, they may know what's to be done, however they are dependant on trades people knowing their stuff ( and the purpose of doing some things differently) for the job to run smoothly and correctly.

I'll give you an example, recently I prepared tender drawings (wasn't retained for the construction monitoring) for an extension and specified 200x44 rafters in the roof, to accommodate insulation on the slope and maintaining a 50mm air gap. The carpenter used 150x44 rafters as they were adequate for the purpose of the roof structure, however the client afterwards ended up having to fix a 50x44 battens to the rafter to accommodate the required depth of insulation. What appeared to be a saving ended up costing more than budgeted because they listened to the carpenter, without knowing the full consequences of the decision that was made.Had a professional been retained on the project to provide construction advise and monitor the works the issue would (or should) not have a arisen. While the example alone wouldn't justify the fees of retaining a professional, over the course of a project a series of similar mistakes could add up.

I know of another case where a self builder forget about all the corner posts for windows and the block work complete to window head height before the mistake was copped which resulted in a large amount of block work to be removed and redone, at the self builders expense, only because of poor sequencing and lack of knowledge.

I'm sure you get the drift.

Villain · 11-10-2012 9:29am

archtech wrote: »

Villian,your quiet correct project management is project management in most instances, and a good project manger will manage a construction job as well as any other once all the information, sequencing and knowledge is available to the project manager. For a self builder, they may know what's to be done, however they are dependant on trades people knowing their stuff ( and the purpose of doing some things differently) for the job to run smoothly and correctly.

I'll give you an example, recently I prepared tender drawings (wasn't retained for the construction monitoring) for an extension and specified 200x44 rafters in the roof, to accommodate insulation on the slope and maintaining a 50mm air gap. The carpenter used 150x44 rafters as they were adequate for the purpose of the roof structure, however the client afterwards ended up having to fix a 50x44 battens to the rafter to accommodate the required depth of insulation. What appeared to be a saving ended up costing more than budgeted because they listened to the carpenter, without knowing the full consequences of the decision that was made.Had a professional been retained on the project to provide construction advise and monitor the works the issue would (or should) not have a arisen. While the example alone wouldn't justify the fees of retaining a professional, over the course of a project a series of similar mistakes could add up.

I know of another case where a self builder forget about all the corner posts for windows and the block work complete to window head height before the mistake was copped which resulted in a large amount of block work to be removed and redone, at the self builders expense, only because of poor sequencing and lack of knowledge.

I'm sure you get the drift.

Well those examples you gave are basic things I would expect anyone who is going to build a home to know. I actually think a self build is more likely to get those things correct as they will be ordering the materials and can see the real cost of the options available.

In my case for example I priced all my timber for different grades and ended up with C24 imported joists and rafters as the price difference wasn't huge, the quality difference however was huge!

sydthebeat · 11-10-2012 10:13am

Villain wrote: »

Well those examples you gave are basic things I would expect anyone who is going to build a home to know. I actually think a self build is more likely to get those things correct as they will be ordering the materials and can see the real cost of the options available.

In my case for example I priced all my timber for different grades and ended up with C24 imported joists and rafters as the price difference wasn't huge, the quality difference however was huge!

you would think, but more often than not , when there is no professional input at construction stage, the different trades will always try convince an unsuspecting self builder to change a specification to suit themselves.
I see this day in day out.
Expecting "anyone who is building to know" shows great faith in people who, in my on going experience, dont deserve that faith.

In the case above its actually the project managers fault for not knowing that they should have had pre ordered 20 x 44's from the builders merchants as its a "made to order" rafter size. Simply bad project management.

Slig · 15-10-2012 8:32am

Villain wrote: »

Well you are making some assumptions Muffler, I'm not sure where I ever said "that tradesmen are the men do do ALL work associated with house building "

Thats a very naive viewpoint and I am certainly not naive, I started building my house 5 years ago, over the past 8 years my parents, Uncle's and Brothers have all built homes using contractors and they have been many issues and mistakes.

I have taken that experience along with a lot of time to educate myself on the different aspects of the project I am undertaking. I have a engineer who is signing off on the stage payments, a nice down to earth fella who doesn't give off the same vibe as some who have replied to me here.

I have asked questions here and welcome all and any feedback, however the constant "ha you haven't a clue good luck, hire a fellow professional" gets a little annoying.

My point in relation to hiring people who have the skills and experience is that it helps reduce issues, project management is project management whether it's managing a rollout of a cloud saas product or building a home, giving clear objectives to people who you are confident can complete the task is half the battle.

I can see your point and understand your frustrations. It must sound very condesending to someone like yourself that is succesfully project managing your own build to be told that you dont know what you are doing and I hope you can see our frustration when, as professionals, to be told that our qualifications and experience and proven track record is unnecessary in building a house. I can also see how you can interpret our comments as looking after "a fellow professional." I'd personally see it more as a doctors attitude to alternative medicine.

Building in accordance with regulations?

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