Angry Behaviour From a Bus Éireann Driver

malene

This is copy of tex from another thread, reposting here so it gets more views.

"This is an account of some disturbing behaviour by a Bus Eireann driver last night (109 bus) and it really should be highlighted and I hope management reads this.

I experienced what I can only call, one of the most uncomfortable experiences as a passenger, and witnessed the most disturbing behaviour by a driver I have ever seen.

People queued up to get on the bus at gate 7. The driver would either bark his dissatisfaction at them or raise his voice in an intimidating way. He would ORDER passengers in the strongest tone, to put their baggage, even if it was a small suitcase, into the side luggage door and NOT bring it inside. If it was monster of a suitcase, I'd understand, this was not though. Passengers didn't know where to look and some of us looked at eachother as if to say, is this happening.

Then he pulled out and a woman , clearly in her sixties, came out of gate 7 and waved at him, he couldn't reverse, so went back towards the gate and stopped. He pointed at the woman in and enraged manner to go back inside. She was 4 foot from the bus (and CCTV will back me up) and he just WOULD NOT let her on. To refuse a woman onto a bus, when he clearly COULD have, is mindboggling, sinister, a disagrace, sickening and a sign of someone who has a bullying streak and has a serious anger management issue.

Then, later on, people would come up from the side and kindly ask him to stop at next stop. 99% of drivers nod and stop. This guy barked at them that they should press the button on top and sent them back to press the button. Again, a real control freak. At night, the buttons are not really visible and most people realise the bus driver is usually accomodating. To order the passanger back to his seat to press a bell to stop a bus, that the driver already knew he had to stop is a sign of a control freak (or you can fill in your own diagnosis here).

His demeanour is really off putting and establishes a very bad vibe on the bus. People have enough on their plate and get on buses just to go home or whatever and don't need this kind of thing froma driver.

I don't look at the driver as a reflection of Bus Eireann overall, but I do look at him as someone under the radar that management are not aware of and clearly he needs to be removed for intimidating customers.

And before you say he had a bad day, that was the 2nd time I've seen him in action.

He barked at an African man one day on the airport bus for talking on his phone while paying for the ticket. Ok, maybe you should put the phone aside while you pay for ticket, but to be viciously condecending is unreal. This guy has a problem with race too and that was absolutely clear from the way he treated the guy.

This driver is just too sharp, can cut you short and is like the scariest principal you ever had in school.

I felt so bad for that woman, left standing at the departure gate, but yet,I was afraid to say to the driver "sorry, can you stop the bus and let the woman on"? , in case he lambasted me afor not minding my own business.

If there's anyone from bus eireann management and you can verify yourself with a moderator, I'll PM details of driver and time of bus. This guy needs to be put in his place before he actually provokes someone. A P45 is the only way.

M"

just to add, on one of the main stops, he complained at people not pressing the button to alert him to stop and this was at a MAIN stop, where he was picking people up anyway. he said and I quote, "I am sick of playing a guessing game with people".

Seriously, he has to go.

coylemj

The CIE group of companies is comprised of employees who are represented by aggressive trade unions. The attitude among these unions is that that the company is run primarily for the purpose of providing employment for the workers and not to provide a service to the general public.

Try ringing a Dublin Bus garage and complaining about a driver ignoring a bus stop full of passengers and see how far you get. Just listen to the contempt that you'll get on such a call and the instant you ask the DB inspector to give his name, he'll hang up on you.

Hilly Bill

I disagree, but this is about a bus Eireann driver who's actions was far more serious than a bus passing a bus stop.

corktina

Whilst there is no excuse if he was rude, we all have off days and he actually was only obeying the rules in not letting a passenger on after he had left a stop and by insisting they stay in their seats.

foggy_lad

@malene you should make a complaint directly to bus Eireann in writing or by email. It will be passed on to the appropriate depot. It is good you noted the time and bus number as this will help identify this driver who seems to have had a particularly bad day.(maybe he had been told he was being laid off because of the cuts?)

coylemj

Would anyone like to say if this driver was sacked or not?

A FORMER civil servant who was semi-paralysed after suffering a stroke has been awarded €12,000 after he was pushed off a bus by the driver.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/stroke-victim-pushed-off-bus-awarded-12000-3253777.html

The plaintiff claimed aggravated damages against Dublin Bus, the fact that DB's defence did not include a statement to the effect that the driver had been sacked suggests that he was not.

Infini

coylemj wrote: »

The CIE group of companies is comprised of employees who are represented by aggressive trade unions. The attitude among these unions is that that the company is run primarily for the purpose of providing employment for the workers and not to provide a service to the general public.

Honestly unless you actually work in there you dont have a clue what your talking about. It can also be said that theres some people out there who think the world revolves around them and when things dont go exactly the way they like they think they can holler abuse at staff and treat them like dirt for things they have no control over.

Back on topic tho and if the person is excessively and unreasonably hostile and abusive write in a complaint to the companys email and if your talking to someone about complaining about someone like that just be calm and rational because people DO listen when you stay that way and will help if theyre able to

Pkiernan

A mate of mine head butted a driver who behaved in such a manner.
No consequences either.

I was sworn at by a driver for asking for a ticket - I reported the scumbag to Bus Eireann with a copy of my ticket and what happened. I got a letter back from them saying that the driver had been reprimanded, but in reality I doubt anything happened to the filthy b@astard.

I reckon the driver who got headbutted learned his lesson better.

Cookie_Monster

Shitty attitude and all but this:

Then he pulled out and a woman , clearly in her sixties, came out of gate 7 and waved at him, he couldn't reverse, so went back towards the gate and stopped. He pointed at the woman in and enraged manner to go back inside. She was 4 foot from the bus (and CCTV will back me up) and he just WOULD NOT let her on. To refuse a woman onto a bus, when he clearly COULD have, is mindboggling, sinister, a disagrace, sickening and a sign of someone who has a bullying streak and has a serious anger management issue.

is absolutely the right thing to do. Leave on time and if people are late leave them where they are, no one to blame but themselves.

dowlingm

there can be industrial relations consequences to publicly confirming someone was dismissed especially if something like a criminal conviction wasn't involved.

Dermighty

I agree about the leaving on time thing, I've missed a train a couple of times as the doors closed while I was on the platform. It's just the way things go.
I'd rather know the bus is going to be on time than to not know what time it was going to leave.

It's a **** job, lots of jobs are ****, I'm a bouncer, it's a **** job, I don't take my job out on people (genuinely!), if the guy cant take responsibility for his own mood then he shouldn't be in that position.

T-K-O

This is not one driver having an off day. My girlfriend gets the bus everyday to work and comes home with similar stories all the time.

Just recently she got the bus home and when she was getting off the driver accused her of not paying the full fair she apologised and informed the driver that was the amount she has paid for the last few months. She said him attitude was awful sounds to me like he was trying to intimated her.

His parting shot - it's always people like you in a fancy apartment, I actually laughed at this sad git when she told me but incidents like this happen way to often.

bmaxi

Having an off day is no excuse, civility costs nothing. IMO, somebody with an attitude like this is a dangerous person to be in charge of a vehicle weighing several tons and with dozens of people on board. At the very least he should be moved from driving to a position where he doesn't interact with the public, the toilets in Busaras are filthy, maybe he could take his anger out on a mop.

darkdubh

There are an awaful lot of drivers out there with a terrible attitude and the poster who made the point about the trade union was spot on.They know they can carry on like this because the union makes it impossible for them to be reprimanded or sacked.

schemingbohemia

T-K-O wrote: »

This is not one driver having an off day. My girlfriend gets the bus everyday to work and comes home with similar stories all the time.

Just recently she got the bus home and when she was getting off the driver accused her of not paying the full fair she apologised and informed the driver that was the amount she has paid for the last few months. She said him attitude was awful sounds to me like he was trying to intimated her.

His parting shot - it's always people like you in a fancy apartment, I actually laughed at this sad git when she told me but incidents like this happen way to often.

Has she ever actually made a complaint? There's no point in complaining on here, complaints should be made directly to the companies.

Victor

Pkiernan wrote: »

A mate of mine head butted a driver who behaved in such a manner.
No consequences either.

I was sworn at by a driver for asking for a ticket - I reported the scumbag to Bus Eireann with a copy of my ticket and what happened. I got a letter back from them saying that the driver had been reprimanded, but in reality I doubt anything happened to the filthy b@astard.

I reckon the driver who got headbutted learned his lesson better.

Comments like this are not welcome.

Moderator

Victor

The attitude doesn't seem to be appropriate. Angry driving is not safe driving.

However, people need to help themselves.

malene wrote: »

People queued up to get on the bus at gate 7. The driver would either bark his dissatisfaction at them or raise his voice in an intimidating way.

I don't know the tone used, but sometimes, grown adults need to be told how to do the most basic of things. This may come across as harsh.

He would ORDER passengers in the strongest tone, to put their baggage, even if it was a small suitcase, into the side luggage door and NOT bring it inside.

Any sized suitcase belongs in the luggage compartment. The largest thing that should be in the passenger compartment would be a briefcase.

Then he pulled out and a woman , clearly in her sixties, came out of gate 7 and waved at him, he couldn't reverse, so went back towards the gate and stopped. He pointed at the woman in and enraged manner to go back inside. She was 4 foot from the bus (and CCTV will back me up) and he just WOULD NOT let her on. To refuse a woman onto a bus, when he clearly COULD have, is mindboggling, sinister, a disagrace, sickening and a sign of someone who has a bullying streak and has a serious anger management issue.

Once the bus has left the stop, the driver should not let any more people board. The distraction has safety implications and to a degree, it can encourage a sense of entitlement to board late, thereby further delaying services.

Then, later on, people would come up from the side and kindly ask him to stop at next stop. 99% of drivers nod and stop. This guy barked at them that they should press the button on top and sent them back to press the button. Again, a real control freak. At night, the buttons are not really visible and most people realise the bus driver is usually accomodating. To order the passanger back to his seat to press a bell to stop a bus, that the driver already knew he had to stop is a sign of a control freak (or you can fill in your own diagnosis here).

And this is the correct way of doing things. If there is a button and you know where it is, press it.

He barked at an African man one day on the airport bus for talking on his phone while paying for the ticket.

In fairness, running two conversations at the same time is rude.

I felt so bad for that woman, left standing at the departure gate, but yet,I was afraid to say to the driver "sorry, can you stop the bus and let the woman on"? , in case he lambasted me afor not minding my own business.

It is not the passengers place to tell the driver to stop and/or to let someone on.

just to add, on one of the main stops, he complained at people not pressing the button to alert him to stop and this was at a MAIN stop, where he was picking people up anyway. he said and I quote, "I am sick of playing a guessing game with people".

Was the bus full and perhaps he couldn't let people on, so did not expect to be stopping.

Mrs OBumble

I notice that the post contains no comments about the quality of the man's driving.

Did he handle the bus badly? Stop sharply? Run orange lights? Travel too fast for the conditions? Pull up short of stops or out from the kerb?

None of that?

Maybe it's not so much a driver with an anger problem, as a passenger with an entitlement problem?

bmaxi

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I notice that the post contains no comments about the quality of the man's driving.

Did he handle the bus badly? Stop sharply? Run orange lights? Travel too fast for the conditions? Pull up short of stops or out from the kerb?

None of that?

Maybe it's not so much a driver with an anger problem, as a passenger with an entitlement problem?

Just because there is no documented account of a trail of destruction along the country's roads doesn't make the behaviour acceptable. I'm sure there are plenty of road rage incidents every day that don't result in mass murder, then for no apparent reason, carnage. The driver in question needs to seriously consider whether or not he wants to continue in the job if it puts him under such pressure.

corktina

you are quite prepared to accept the OPs version of what happened then?

T-K-O

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Has she ever actually made a complaint? There's no point in complaining on here, complaints should be made directly to the companies.

She has had a few bad experiences and seen a lot more. She did complain about his comment on where we live. We both work hard for what we have and that really annoyed her. Needles to say she didn't get anywhere.

Personally I avoid the bus at all costs. I would hate to let myself down by getting into a heated argument, it would be inevitable.

schemingbohemia

T-K-O wrote: »

She has had a few bad experiences and seen a lot more. She did complain about his comment on where we live. We both work hard for what we have and that really annoyed her. Needles to say she didn't get anywhere.

Personally I avoid the bus at all costs. I would hate to let myself down by getting into a heated argument, it would be inevitable.

To be honest I probably wouldn't engage such a driver in a discussion or make a complaint to them, I was referring to making a complaint to his/her boss ie Dublin Bus and/or the NTA.

T-K-O

schemingbohemia wrote: »

To be honest I probably wouldn't engage such a driver in a discussion or make a complaint to them, I was referring to making a complaint to his/her boss ie Dublin Bus and/or the NTA.

She made the complaint to Dublin bus.

I was trying to make the point that I avoid taking the bus because unlike my girlfriend I don't think I could hold my tongue. I took a night class in D.I.T last year and after years of not setting foot on a bus I decided to use dublin bus to save on time And parking fees that lasted 3 weeks I just couldnt do it.

I can only imagine that these guys put up with a lot but that is no reason to take it out on every passenger.

bmaxi

corktina wrote: »

you are quite prepared to accept the OPs version of what happened then?

I'm prepared to listen to all sides, currently the OP's is the only version on offer, if you have another let's hear it, bearing in mind, that in order to be fair, there'll be equally as little reason to believe that.
I have worked with people like this before, who consider the public in general and their passengers in particular, to be an intrusion on their life, so I find the op quite credible.

malene

corktina wrote: »

Whilst there is no excuse if he was rude, we all have off days and he actually was only obeying the rules in not letting a passenger on after he had left a stop and by insisting they stay in their seats.

The problem with not letting the old woman on, is that he was reversing when she came to gate and waved at him to let her on, he couldn't pull back, so went forward towards the gate, was withing 4 foot of her and pointed at her angrily and sharply to get back inside, something you might do to a bold brat or a dog even. It wouldn't have killed him to oblige her. She's an old woman, if it were some drunk guy, I might understand his refusal, thinking the guy might get sick, but an old woman, no excuse.

As for a "off day", I saw him before on an airport bus and he was sharp and agressive there too.

malene

Infini2 wrote: »

Honestly unless you actually work in there you dont have a clue what your talking about. It can also be said that theres some people out there who think the world revolves around them and when things dont go exactly the way they like they think they can holler abuse at staff and treat them like dirt for things they have no control over.

Back on topic tho and if the person is excessively and unreasonably hostile and abusive write in a complaint to the companys email and if your talking to someone about complaining about someone like that just be calm and rational because people DO listen when you stay that way and will help if theyre able to

Points taken, nothing was said to me, but I just felt horrible for the old woman and the other passengers. I was actually afraid to say anything to him directly, because I knew he had the capacity to blow a fuse when I saw him on another route.

corktina

malene wrote: »

The problem with not letting the old woman on, is that he was reversing when she came to gate and waved at him to let her on, he couldn't pull back, so went forward towards the gate, was withing 4 foot of her and pointed at her angrily and sharply to get back inside, something you might do to a bold brat or a dog even. It wouldn't have killed him to oblige her. She's an old woman, if it were some drunk guy, I might understand his refusal, thinking the guy might get sick, but an old woman, no excuse.

As for a "off day", I saw him before on an airport bus and he was sharp and agressive there too.

in her sixties is not old....and it's the rule that once the doors shut, thats it, for very good reasons.

malene

Victor wrote: »

Once the bus has left the stop, the driver should not let any more people board. The distraction has safety implications and to a degree, it can encourage a sense of entitlement to board late, thereby further delaying services.

- Yes, but he drove back in again, the occupancy of the bus nust have been no more than 40%. 15 seconds max it would have taken and no one on board would growl at an old lady for delaying the bus.

And this is the correct way of doing things. If there is a button and you know where it is, press it.

- In fairness yes, but a lot of people walk up beside driver and the drivers don't mind.

In fairness, running two conversations at the same time is rude.

ok, point taken on that one, but it was the tone tyhe driver used that was actually shocking and I'm not over reacting on the level.

It is not the passengers place to tell the driver to stop and/or to let someone on.

Was the bus full and perhaps he couldn't let people on, so did not expect to be stopping.

Again, about 40% full. Loads of room.

malene

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I notice that the post contains no comments about the quality of the man's driving.

Did he handle the bus badly? Stop sharply? Run orange lights? Travel too fast for the conditions? Pull up short of stops or out from the kerb?

None of that?

Maybe it's not so much a driver with an anger problem, as a passenger with an entitlement problem?

You would have to have been there. Your jaw would drop, honestly. I got on the bus with no problems, I'm just outlining the event as it happened on the trip.

malene

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I notice that the post contains no comments about the quality of the man's driving.

Did he handle the bus badly? Stop sharply? Run orange lights? Travel too fast for the conditions? Pull up short of stops or out from the kerb?

None of that?

Maybe it's not so much a driver with an anger problem, as a passenger with an entitlement problem?

He did drive very fast, and we got to the final stop early in fact, but if you're hyper, that's probably what you do to blow off steam or something. In fairness, I'm not being critical of his driving, just his person to person interaction.

If this guy keeps working there, you'll eventually have asituation where gate 7 will be full of queuing passengers ready to get onto 109, bus pulls up, they all see him and they all refuse to get on and tell the yellow jackets "we'll actually wait for the next bus". Kindness is free. It wouldn't cost this guy a penny to be nice.

malene

bmaxi wrote: »

I'm prepared to listen to all sides, currently the OP's is the only version on offer, if you have another let's hear it, bearing in mind, that in order to be fair, there'll be equally as little reason to believe that.
I have worked with people like this before, who consider the public in general and their passengers in particular, to be an intrusion on their life, so I find the op quite credible.

Thanks you. And again, the driver said nothing to me, but some of the other passengers did suffer and alos, to be noted, did not get into an argument, they were embarrassed, said nothinga nd just waited for bus to stop. Someday though the driver will say the wrong thing to the wrong person. Karma is great , but there's no predictable time on karma. I might write out a letter and see in a month or two if the guy is stil around.

But one suggestion I would make, if you ever get on to the 109, get your phoen out, put on your voice or video recorder and record yourself getting on bus and if you are nar the front, leave the recorder on until all passengers are on. No driver can deny something that is on an audio/video recording.

M

testarossa40

malene wrote: »

Thanks you. And again, the driver said nothing to me, but some of the other passengers did suffer and alos, to be noted, did not get into an argument, they were embarrassed, said nothinga nd just waited for bus to stop. Someday though the driver will say the wrong thing to the wrong person. Karma is great , but there's no predictable time on karma. I might write out a letter and see in a month or two if the guy is stil around.

But one suggestion I would make, if you ever get on to the 109, get your phoen out, put on your voice or video recorder and record yourself getting on bus and if you are nar the front, leave the recorder on until all passengers are on. No driver can deny something that is on an audio/video recording.

M

And was that contained in Bus Eireann's response to your registered complaint?

Look, if you truly suffered, were truly embarrassed, mindboggled, sickened, disgraced, etc etc by this alleged incident, and you clearly have the time & energy to type up the incident, just report it through the proper channels now please and not "in a month or two":
http://www.buseireann.ie/inner.php?id=292#overcoming.

No one has a monopoly on Karma...

Or, if only intended for entertainment of the forum, then as you were...

Hilly Bill

They know they can carry on like this because the union makes it impossible for them to be reprimanded or sacked.[/QUOTE]


There is no truth in that at all..

T-K-O

testarossa40 wrote: »

And was that contained in Bus Eireann's response to your registered complaint?

Look, if you truly suffered, were truly embarrassed, mindboggled, sickened, disgraced, etc etc by this alleged incident, and you clearly have the time & energy to type up the incident, just report it through the proper channels now please and not "in a month or two":
http://www.buseireann.ie/inner.php?id=292#overcoming.

No one has a monopoly on Karma...

Or, if only intended for entertainment of the forum, then as you were...

Sending a report is irrelevant when it comes to boards. She is entitled to air her view for the public to read.

If you don't believe her account don't read it . thats what makes this place great.

mdebets

We only have the OP's word about the driver being unfriendly and angry towards the passenger, so I won't comment on this, as one man's nice, polite but very direct way could be seen as unfriendly or angry by others.

The behaviour of the busdriver however (the what he did, not necessary the how) can only be described as being correct and I would like to see more busdrivers behaving in this way.

malene wrote: »

People queued up to get on the bus at gate 7. The driver would either bark his dissatisfaction at them or raise his voice in an intimidating way. He would ORDER passengers in the strongest tone, to put their baggage, even if it was a small suitcase, into the side luggage door and NOT bring it inside. If it was monster of a suitcase, I'd understand, this was not though. Passengers didn't know where to look and some of us looked at eachother as if to say, is this happening.

So people wanted to bring their suitcases into the bus, thereby most likely blocking an additional seat, as it probably wouldn't fit in the overhead space nor under the seat in front, and the driver told them to not do this. Totally correct, that's what the luggage compartment in a bus is there for. There just isn't enough space for suitcases inside a bus.

malene wrote: »

Then he pulled out and a woman , clearly in her sixties, came out of gate 7 and waved at him, he couldn't reverse, so went back towards the gate and stopped. He pointed at the woman in and enraged manner to go back inside. She was 4 foot from the bus (and CCTV will back me up) and he just WOULD NOT let her on. To refuse a woman onto a bus, when he clearly COULD have, is mindboggling, sinister, a disagrace, sickening and a sign of someone who has a bullying streak and has a serious anger management issue.

So the driver would have to get back onto the gate, open the door, get out, open the luggage compartment, get her to put her suitcase in, close it again, get in the bus again, wait for the woman to get in, check the ticket, let her take a seat. Probably would mean he now is 3-4 minutes late.
Now, he is just pulling away from the stop and a second woman (this time she is in her seventies) appears at the gate and waves him down. Is he to stop for her again, because she is just an old lady and it would be a disgrace to let her wait for the next bus.
If a bus is timetabled to leave at 07:00 then it should leave at 07:00 and if you're not on the bus, you just have to wait for the next one.
What's ridiculous is that too many busdriver would let the woman get on and delay the whole bus for her, probably leading to more delays further down, if they do it on more than one stop.

malene wrote: »

Then, later on, people would come up from the side and kindly ask him to stop at next stop. 99% of drivers nod and stop. This guy barked at them that they should press the button on top and sent them back to press the button. Again, a real control freak. At night, the buttons are not really visible and most people realise the bus driver is usually accomodating. To order the passanger back to his seat to press a bell to stop a bus, that the driver already knew he had to stop is a sign of a control freak (or you can fill in your own diagnosis here).

So you think it's a good idea, for a passenger on a bus at night (with probably dimmed lights in the bus and low visibility) to get up from his seat walk to the front of the bus and distract the driver. What would this passenger do, if the bus were to suddenly break hard and he would find himself in front of the bus, having just been thrown through the windscreen? Or if the bus were to swerve and he would be thrown through the bus? Or if he would distract the driver just long enough, for him not to see the old pensioner, walking on the side of the road home from the pub and to drive straight into him?
This whole scenario would be the only one, where I would be fully in favour of the driver shouting and barking angrily at the passenger, to get back in his seat, as it is a clear safty issue.

malene wrote: »

He barked at an African man one day on the airport bus for talking on his phone while paying for the ticket. Ok, maybe you should put the phone aside while you pay for ticket, but to be viciously condecending is unreal. This guy has a problem with race too and that was absolutely clear from the way he treated the guy.

I don't know, where you get the him being racist out of this, but if he barked at the passenger for talking on the phone while paying for a ticket and thereby most likely delaying the service unnecessarily, he should be applauded, such passengers are an annoyance to other passengers as well. I just hope he barks at other passenger who don't have money ready and fumble in their wallets for ages as well.

OP, please find this bus driver, he needs to be applauded and commented, for looking out for the safety and comfort (no seats blocked by suitcases, no delays due to late passengers or people who take ages to board) of his passengers.

Infini

Pkiernan wrote: »

A mate of mine head butted a driver who behaved in such a manner.
No consequences either.

I was sworn at by a driver for asking for a ticket - I reported the scumbag to Bus Eireann with a copy of my ticket and what happened. I got a letter back from them saying that the driver had been reprimanded, but in reality I doubt anything happened to the filthy b@astard.

I reckon the driver who got headbutted learned his lesson better.

Just because someones an ass doesnt justify physical violence PERIOD. Not only that but the moment you resort to that any and all arguments you might have are invalid. Oh and not to mention the fact that if your caught on camera throwing the 1st punch then your ass can be sued for damages as well.

+1 to Victor as well :O

testarossa40

T-K-O wrote: »

Sending a report is irrelevant when it comes to boards. She is entitled to air her view for the public to read.

If you don't believe her account don't read it . thats what makes this place great.

You seem to be jumping to conclusions there buddy...

I'll read anything anybody has to offer any time, and then decide for myself what to believe or not - THIS is whats "great" about this place imv. And I'm generally quite open-minded fyi. In this case, what I canNOT believe is that an account as seemingly serious and concerning as this has NOT been reported to the company concerned in the first place to address urgently. Except maybe in a month or two...

I know what I'd have done in the same situation before putting it on Boards - link above...

jlacey

no excuse for rudeness, too much of it these days